[MileCruncher]

Originally Posted by pjbiju

The ex-showroom price in Thane for Thar CRDe is 5.97 lakhs, right? Why is it so high in Mumbai? Because of taxes?

Yes Sir, its called 12% Octroi

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by GTO

I'm going against the tide here, but I do NOT think the Thar is over-priced at all. I've never heard anyone complain of the Gypsy's pricing, thus am surprised that a 6 lakh ex-showroom price is meeting with some criticism.
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The differential value, of these 5 points combined, is a lot more than 70 grand. In fact, the Thar CRDe makes the Gypsy look overpriced!

I always object to MUL pricing! the basic gypsy at that price,!!?? i think it should be not more than 5 lakhs for the soft top!

As far as engine is concerned, diesel economy comes into picture only when its used as a regular or primary vehicle. Which Thar in its current form (without AC) might not really work out in our hot and dusty country. So my logic of question is for a 5k kms annual running, is it really worth?

Then comes the parts, Gypsy parts are one of the cheapest (ie regular mech parts which are most vulnerable). Also the engine parts, in case of any damage. More over Gypsy has most basic set up when it comes to suspension and steering, which is a major plus for offroad use. On tarmac you will not find any difference, only in the broken patches the rear will overtake the front

Torque and power is the major + when it comes to Thar.

If Thar came with AC and Alloys at the current price, then it would have had the edge. But without them and with an unknown history (reliability angle), esp from a offroad perspective? I really don't think so.

Look at Thar on its own and things might be ok, but am not sure comparing it to Gypsy is the right thing, and hence avoided the conversation as much as possible.

This is just my take.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Dear all - I would like to share with you the below quotes, which were our guiding principles during the progress of the Thar project. We used them in the right spirit. This gave us the desired result. I have underlined the most important ones.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Quotes:
1 ----- The "cine que non" of leadership is "Professional Knowledge and Professional Competence.
2 ----- The automotive business is a business of Passion.
3 ----- Bottom of pyramid products are an irresistible value proposition. Don't inore them.
4 ----- Focus, Decide, Act.
5 ----- Slashing timelines is an accepted "disruptive innovation" practice. Therefore, really creative people always pre-empt all schedules.
6 ----- Do what you love to do. Don't do anything else.
7 ----- Criticism is bad. Critique is good. Criticism is person based. Critique is issue based. Give and recieve positive issue based critique professionally.
8 ----- You succeed or you learn. Only people who do actual work will also make a mistake.
9 ----- Measure whatever you do. If you don't measure, you cannot improve.
10 ----- Real leaders do not set up their teams for failure.
11 ----- Hire people who don’t listen to you.
12 ----- Be fast to ramp up quickly on an upturn. Score quick hits.
13 ----- Bindas Bol – speak your mind.
14 ----- Anything that is fun doing, merits doing it at least twice.
15 ----- I know I can break the world record but I don’t know when. So I never give up trying.
16 ----- Your prototype may be ready at your competitor’s premises.
17 ----- Complexity leads to decay. Keep things simple.
And ----- last but not the least
16 ----- Cash is king.

Please accept my best personal regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[GTO]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

I always object to MUL pricing! the basic gypsy at that price,!!?? i think it should be not more than 5 lakhs for the soft top!

Well, they aren't mass-volume vehicles and hence, economy of scale also comes into the picture. Either ways, I honestly don't think the Thar is over-priced at all. VFM isn't a term you'd use for a special-application Gypsy & Thar as much as you would for a hatchback like the Swift.

As far as engine is concerned, diesel economy comes into picture only when its used as a regular or primary vehicle.

Whether your running is high or low, diesel will work out cheaper. Those who drive more will save more. Plus, diesels are inherently more FE too. The Thar will have a much higher tank range than the Gypsy in off-road conditions. Conditions where the Gypsy needs to be revved high, the Thar could do just as well at low - mid rpms.

Which Thar in its current form (without AC) might not really work out in our hot and dusty country.

The Thar is "Air-con" ready, compared to the Gypsy where we have to consider options as absurd as placing the condensor under the vehicle! If you want an air-con, buy it! Atleast you can fit an air-con in the Thar in a straight-forward manner (unlike the Gypsy).

Then comes the parts, Gypsy parts are one of the cheapest (ie regular mech parts which are most vulnerable).

100% agreed. Mahindras come with their own niggles and terrible after-sales service. The reliability of the Gypsy is A+. I can tell you for a fact that, if I owned a '97 Gypsy (vis a vis the '97 Classic), I'd have had a lot less headaches

More over Gypsy has most basic set up when it comes to suspension and steering, which is a major plus for offroad use.

Buy the Thar MDI then. It's cheaper too

Torque and power is the major + when it comes to Thar.

And the lack of bottom end torque is the Gypsy's major negative. I've seen Gypsies driven by pros clutch-slipping big time through the same section that my Classic breezed through.

If Thar came with AC and Alloys at the current price, then it would have had the edge.

Applies to the *only* other alternative in the market, the Gypsy too. Again, the 70,000 difference for the Thar (diesel, power, torque and power steering) is FULLY worth it in the current competitive scenario. Lets put a number on that:

Power steering : Atleast 30,000?
Common-rail diesel : Atleast 75,000? (difference between Swift P & D = 85,000)
2.5 times the torque : How much would it cost to get 250 NM of torque from the Gypsy?
Better highway cruising ability : Priceless to some.

But without them and with an unknown history (reliability angle), esp from a offroad perspective? I really don't think so.

We of course can't talk about reliability as the Thar has just been launched. But going by Mahindra's track record (my Classic = zero breakdowns off-road, Scorpio / Bolero / Xylo are reliable machines), I feel we can give them benefit of doubt? Still, I do agree with you that, in terms of long-term reliability, the Gypsy is king.

Look at Thar on its own and things might be ok, but am not sure comparing it to Gypsy is the right thing, and hence avoided the conversation as much as possible.

How can you? Thar isn't the only vehicle sold in the Indian market, and a competitive evaluation is inevitable. In any market condition, VFM is relative to other alternatives. The only other offroader is a Gypsy, or used 4x4s which come with their own headaches.

If the Thar is over-priced, the petrol Gypsy with lesser power, 2.5 times LESS torque and no power-steering is even more so.

Originally Posted by pjbiju

The ex-showroom price in Thane for Thar CRDe is 5.97 lakhs, right? Why is it so high in Mumbai? Because of taxes?

Octroi.

NOTE : I do NOT intend to make this a Thar vs Gypsy debate. My comments are ONLY on pricing.

[NIP]

^^ completely agree with GTO here. You cannot not compare the Gypsy here. And believe me, I've had the Gypsy King for a while and the Thar thrashes the Gypsy on all accounts here, especially talking VFM. Gypsy is too overpriced now that the Thar is launched.

And my 'family' will never get into the gypsy even with AC, PS what not, with that back-breaking suspension and rattling. For hard-core offroaders it might be ok, but there are folk like me who like to getaway for the weekends to places where a car will not go. I'm definitely NOT going to bash my Thar in an OTR...you'll probably find me and jr. with fishing rods/cameras in the middle of your OTRs

Behram Sir, where do I send my cheque for the white CRDe? Your local Bangalore dealer is least interested!

[H3LIOS]

Would one of the THAR gurus please answer a few Qs on the THAR DI (BS-III)? The THAR website has the specs & features of only the CRDe version, no mention of the DI.

- Does the THAR DI have power steering? (at least as an option)
- Is the 4.47 lakhs ex-showroom price mentioned in the press release for the 4WD version or 2WD? If the later, then any idea what the price is for the 4x4 version.

EDIT: Sorry, just found the info on the DI thread - No PS and price is for 2WD. Should have checked before posting. So, did they not announce the price for the DI 4x4?

Thanks,
Teja

[AWD]

Originally Posted by GTO

I've never heard anyone complain of the Gypsy's pricing. Gypsy ex-showroom price in Mumbai : 5.58 lakhs, Thar = 6.28 lakhs

Though GYpsy is Jeep too but keeping it as a yardstick for pricing isn't the right strategy because Gypsy never made it big in sales. There were/are various issues responsible for that, most were never discussed, so high price did not figure too much.

One has to go by/compare with a successful model/vehicle. Just because Gypsy is priced high (for which it has been a sales disaster), can't say that Thar pricing is good. If Gypsy could not sell well for its high price, it would be doubly difficult for Thar to do well at a still higher price. Had Gypsy been cheaper by a considerable margin, sales could have been better.

From a Companies prospective, the price of Thar is great but from a consumers POV, its high. Decide on whose side do you stand!

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by GTO

Well, they aren't mass-volume vehicles and hence, economy of scale also comes into the picture. Either ways, I honestly don't think the Thar is over-priced at all. VFM isn't a term you'd use for a special-application Gypsy & Thar as much as you would for a hatchback like the Swift.

Am also not talking about number game, its a basic 4x4. Apart from some body parts which are "still" imported, there is no reason why MUL should keep such a huge margin. Volumes anyways come from the armed forces sale and they are also stuck without much options.

Originally Posted by GTO

Whether your running is high or low, diesel will work out cheaper. Those who drive more will save more. Plus, diesels are inherently more FE too. The Thar will have a much higher tank range than the Gypsy in off-road conditions. Conditions where the Gypsy needs to be revved high, the Thar could do just as well at low - mid rpms.

Agreed in stock form.

Originally Posted by GTO

The Thar is "Air-con" ready, compared to the Gypsy where we have to consider options as absurd as placing the condensor under the vehicle! If you want an air-con, buy it! Atleast you can fit an air-con in the Thar in a straight-forward manner (unlike the Gypsy).

GTO it is NOT that difficult, i can do it and i know of atleast 2 people who have done it without any major hurdle. Its just matter of finding the right AC guy. As always i think the condensor underbody is totally a bad idea and not required at all.

Originally Posted by GTO

Buy the Thar MDI then. It's cheaper too

I cant in BLR, but otherwise 100% VFM.

Originally Posted by GTO

And the lack of bottom end torque is the Gypsy's major negative. I've seen Gypsies driven by pros clutch-slipping big time through the same section that my Classic breezed through.

Least of the worry since parts are available ready made and it takes just couple of hours to fix em

Originally Posted by GTO

Power steering : Atleast 30,000?
Common-rail diesel : Atleast 75,000? (difference between Swift P & D = 85,000)
2.5 times the torque : How much would it cost to get 250 NM of torque from the Gypsy?
Better highway cruising ability : Priceless to some.

Gypsy very honestly does not require PS apart from parking, highway its as good as any car when it comes to steering and driving. Its much more refined and can easily maintain 100-120 which is the best that i would do even if i have a 150km/hour 4x4, due to the inherent dynamics of a 4x4 vehicle.

Torque can be multiplied somewhere else, is least of my worries if you ask me.

Originally Posted by GTO

How can you? Thar isn't the only vehicle sold in the Indian market, and a competitive evaluation is inevitable. In any market condition, VFM is relative to other alternatives. The only other offroader is a Gypsy, or used 4x4s which come with their own headaches.

As i said before also in some other thread, there is too much of a difference between stock Gypsy and Thar to get into a comparison mode. Starting with the engine option itself.

Originally Posted by GTO

If the Thar is over-priced, the petrol Gypsy with lesser power, 2.5 times LESS torque and no power-steering is even more so

Completely agree!

I do NOT intend to make this a Thar vs Gypsy debate. My comments are ONLY on pricing.

I still feel Thar is overpriced by 50-70 k, its another story gypsy also is and a very different story as a consumer you and me don't have any other choice. So at the end of the day we are at the mercy of the manufacturer.

I would really like to see the sales chart and how it sustains in the coming months for Thar Crde.

Originally Posted by NIP

And my 'family' will never get into the gypsy even with AC, PS what not, with that back-breaking suspension and rattling. For hard-core offroaders it might be ok, but there are folk like me who like to getaway for the weekends to places where a car will not go. I'm definitely NOT going to bash my Thar in an OTR...you'll probably find me and jr. with fishing rods/cameras in the middle of your OTRs

Yes perfect as a life style vehicle, agree that Thar will have better ride esp with IFS in front, am not sure rear will be THAT great. So CFL are the only way in Thar and Gypsy which will be a after market cost.

I would suggest a long test drive, especially on some not so good tarmac before forming an opinion. Rattling from a Gypsy, well i have a very different experience (brand new vehicle we are talking right?). Anyways M&M is also not that far off in this department.

Originally Posted by AWD

Though GYpsy is Jeep too but keeping it as a yardstick for pricing isn't the right strategy because Gypsy never made it big in sales. There were/are various issues responsible for that, most were never discussed, so high price did not figure too much.
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From a Companies prospective, the price of Thar is great but from a consumers POV, its high. Decide on whose side do you stand!

We share the same emotions towards the pricing. I honestly still feel that this Ex showroom price should have had AC and Alloys at the least.

Anyways this is just my POV and dont think is gonna change anything much. So now lets move on with some test drives please.

[star_aqua]

Originally Posted by AWD

Though GYpsy is Jeep too but keeping it as a yardstick for pricing isn't the right strategy because Gypsy never made it big in sales. There were/are various issues responsible for that, most were never discussed, so high price did not figure too much.

One has to go by/compare with a successful model/vehicle. Just because Gypsy is priced high (for which it has been a sales disaster), can't say that Thar pricing is good. If Gypsy could not sell well for its high price, it would be doubly difficult for Thar to do well at a still higher price. Had Gypsy been cheaper by a considerable margin, sales could have been better.

From a Companies prospective, the price of Thar is great but from a consumers POV, its high. Decide on whose side do you stand!

Completely agree with you. we are paying a premium of atleast 50k more for this. lets see how the sales figures will be in coming days. it will decide weather we will get a discount of 50k or not like we had for the invader..

[Samurai]

Gypsy should not be compared to Thar CDRe, instead it should be compared to the Thar DI model. Gypsy doesn't have IFS, or any modern engine. So Thar DI is the proper comparison.

So, which is more VFM or cheap, Gypsy or Thar DI?

[DirtyDan]

Thar is a whole one half lakh UNDER the price of the LEGEND of 4 years back. That ain't bad especially when you consider inflation since then and the added cost of this XYLO mill and other equipment.


Okay, test drives, before Jaggu gets freaky (Insert annoying smiley face here.)

[AWD]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

I honestly still feel that this Ex showroom price should have had AC and Alloys at the least.

A.C. would have been a great addition but I guess for a ST, an A.C. coming as stock doesn't fit in the scheme of things somehow. It looks in-appropriate. When MM offers a HT, A.C. will make more sense. With this I don't mean A.C. will not cool in ST setting but cooling would be lower compared to HT. Also, ST is not so durable & doesn't flush fit. Any minor tears which would be common on Offroad trails, will lead to sufficient loss of cooling.

As for alloys, Im not too inclined towards this aesthetic only accessory but anything welcome for free!

Originally Posted by star_aqua

lets see how the sales figures will be in coming days.

I guess initially to begin with it might get good numbers because of the excitement/euphoria of a new launch & the relatively craved for a Jeep market might take the plunge. Real figures will emerge when the initial dust has settled.

[vinaydas]

Since this thread is an interactive and iterative way of improving the thar.
I would love to see the thar with ABS as an option and obviously wouldn't mind paying more for it.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Samurai

So, which is more VFM or cheap, Gypsy or Thar DI?

Thar Di anyday, diesel engine, cheap work horse mechanicals which can be repaired by anybody in any part of india. What more can you ask for in a 5 lakh 4x4.

Originally Posted by vinaydas

I would love to see the thar with ABS as an option and obviously wouldn't mind paying more for it.

With an optional kill switch please

[ramkya1]

Hai BEHRAM,

Congrats to you and team for producing what the consumer wanted and being there on the ground with an ear to it. There are many like me who are looking hard for a truck with cruiser and an off-roader capabilities. It's also gret to see that you and team are looking at ways to improve it, way to go.

Checked up with ASC, they looked clueless about the product!!! Hope the TD vehicles would soon be available in showrooms.

Congrats to TBHP members for catalyzing a great product lauch and being part of the R&D, this is what objective forums do.

--Ramky

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