[Cyrus43]

Arka, I dont know the technicalities of it, but I distinctly remember dad posting a statement about it not being a viable fit or something. Will ask him when I speak to him, I could be wrong.

DKG, precisely what I have been saying for ages now. It doesnt make sense investing time and money for a TG of 1000/2000 people does it. What Mahindra has done has made something "Cool" which appeals to both the "Dudes" and the hardcore offroaders and also the people with the "midlife crisis"

My female Friends who have no idea about how cars work or have no inclination to find out anything about OTRing found the THAR sexy. That says it all. This car is a chick magnet and we all know it.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

My female Friends who have no idea about how cars work or have no inclination to find out anything about OTRing found the THAR sexy. That says it all. This car is a chick magnet and we all know it.

I'm glad you raised a very interesting point because let me share a very different perspective a lot of women share about Jeeps. I know of quite a few, my sister included (who happens to have grown up in a car enthusiast home) who consider Jeeps as "junks" They call it a car for "losers" who cannot make it in life and spend time tinkering with a piece of junk as they can't afford anything anyway ! The first time I heard that I said "Ouch" that hurts !! But being a nutcase I went ahead and still bought one and love it. But she still hasn't sat in it and refuses to ever step in one !

Women in any market matter in the buying decision and this feedback from your side is great news. If women are finding the Thar sexy it ties in with my understanding of how the Wrangler was popular with the young crowd in the US. And it wasn't for offroading. It was just a cool vehicle to drive around town.

So if the Thar is heading that way, and I hope a 2wd CRDe comes out quickly with bright trendy colours and interiors then we should have a successful run for the Thar.

Maybe its a selfish approach I am taking. If M&M make the Thar a success it will at the very least allow a platform for developers like BD to slowly give out variants more focused for offroading as a sport

I think we are on the right track with this car

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by DKG

The way this car is configured will most certainly bring more people into the sport of offroading than any other car presently on the Indian scene today.

And going offroad is not going to be extreme for everyone. Initially its more about this car taking people places which a family sedan can't. A small percentage of this breed of enthusiasts will/may eventually warm up to the potential of experiencing some more serious offroad fun, thanks to nationwide events like MGE and others.

In time the whole game will evolve as the vehicle will find new applications. I see families getting into fishing, boating, sailing, windsurfing etc and they will use the Thar as an accessory to enable them to engage in those sports.

For any group considering themselves as purist offroaders you will have to grow to the size of 1000 units a month potential to be taken seriously by any mfg let alone M&M. And might I add that all you guys wanting a specialist focused offroader with extremely robust and very high quality components, and want to pay peanuts for it, are simply not worth the effort for any mfg !!

In the end its all about economics. What sells in numbers gets made !!

Hi DKG,

How will a Solid Axle prevent people from taking it for leisurely pursuits?

On the contrary the people familiar or from an Off-road back ground will understand the limits or be able to read the fine print and prevent abuse.

Most people will buy it because it new and you get a car-like service and support.

Please look at the Thar

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attach...e-2-slide4.jpg

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attach...e-2-slide5.jpg

Why is it tipping forward, is it the additional weight of the winch and bumper, but I'm sure this lack of ground clearance will not matter, and this is a Brand New Vehicle.

And it's OK if the suspension splays out like the Scorpio's after sometime.

People who want to buy this for boating, fishing, sailing, windsurfing, will do so in groups of 5-6 Thars, and next to the M.A.S.S, so they wouldn't need a winch, or aggressive tyres, or MLD/LSD/Differential Locks.

Regards,

Arka

PS - what sells its the Thar MDI, hence it has got solid axle, or it has solid axle hence it will sell.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by DKG

The way this car is configured will most certainly bring more people into the sport of offroading than any other car presently on the Indian scene today.

And going offroad is not going to be extreme for everyone. Initially its more about this car taking people places which a family sedan can't. A small percentage of this breed of enthusiasts will/may eventually warm up to the potential of experiencing some more serious offroad fun, thanks to nationwide events like MGE and others.

In time the whole game will evolve as the vehicle will find new applications. I see families getting into fishing, boating, sailing, windsurfing etc and they will use the Thar as an accessory to enable them to engage in those sports.

For any group considering themselves as purist offroaders you will have to grow to the size of 1000 units a month potential to be taken seriously by any mfg let alone M&M. And might I add that all you guys wanting a specialist focused offroader with extremely robust and very high quality components, and want to pay peanuts for it, are simply not worth the effort for any mfg !!

In the end its all about economics. What sells in numbers gets made !!

@DKG: I disagree with you on this, but I guess we both won't know the answer until a few months after the launch. I think buyers of the Thar will be predominantly existing jeepers who want a much more refined & comfortable jeep. I doubht you will get the average techie/bpo couple to shell lakh 6.5 to 7 Lakhs for soft top vehicle without AC and no lockable cabin. Moreover, Granpa & Granma have to sit side ways for the 600 Km trip. Even if you made the seats front facing, granpa and granma cannot get in without getting arthritis. Basically you can go for a trip with 4 adults or 2 adults/2 kids with front facing seat set up. How much more larger do you think this market is compared to the jeeping community. The market for this vehicle will be predominantly people who have exposure to jeeps. Then again time will tell if you are correct and we see plenty of Thars in the BPO parking lots or not...

I am not asking for a Rubicon. I am asking for a Mahindra Legend with a better engine. How is that going to be a lot more expensive than the MDI mm540 for which the ex showrooom price is something like 4.8 Lakhs?

[BlackRaven]

Originally Posted by DKG

Women in any market matter in the buying decision and this feedback from your side is great news. If women are finding the Thar sexy it ties in with my understanding of how the Wrangler was popular with the young crowd in the US. And it wasn't for offroading. It was just a cool vehicle to drive around town.

+1.

I brought the THAR CRDe home yesterday during my test drive and was not sure how my wife and daughter would react. Beleive me, they were astounded, loved it and it got a double thumbs up. My wife drives a Civic and Lancer today.

[BlackRaven]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

I doubht you will get the average techie/bpo couple to shell lakh 6.5 to 7 Lakhs for soft top vehicle without AC and no lockable cabin.

Well, Not sure If I am an one off example, but I/wife are one techie couple interested and very close to getting the Thar home.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by BlackRaven

+1.

I brought the THAR CRDe home yesterday during my test drive and was not sure how my wife and daughter would react. Beleive me, they were astounded, loved it and it got a double thumbs up. My wife drives a Civic and Lancer today.

@Blackraven: Many people will admire the Thar, just like many find the Xenon & Getaway cool. But how many people will plonk down the money on it? How many people will find it practical to take their family on a vacation in the Thar? Admiring a vehicle is a long way off from actually cutting the check.

Sorry, if I missed your post about this, but have you booked the Thar? When will you be able to take delivery of the Thar?

[BlackRaven]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

@Blackraven: Many people will admire the Thar, just like many find the Xenon & Getaway cool. But how many people will plonk down the money on it? How many people will find it practical to take their family on a vacation in the Thar? Admiring a vehicle is a long way off from actually cutting the check.

Sorry, if I missed your post about this, but have you booked the Thar? When will you be able to take delivery of the Thar?

@4x4addict: I have not booked the Thar but very close to doing so. I am new to the Jeep world and am waiting for the official review here to tell me if there are any major shortcomings if used as a secondary city vehicle. I am not worried about it on the OTR front, so major issues there won't sway my decisions.

I test drove it for about a good hour and a half yesterday and you can find my opinion on my post elsewhere in this thread.

The dealer has promised me Mid Jan delivery for a Jan 2011 manufactured vehicle. They have been very professional so far and I hope they keep up to their word if I decide to go for it.

Regards

[howler]

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

Arka, I dont know the technicalities of it, but I distinctly remember dad posting a statement about it not being a viable fit or something. Will ask him when I speak to him, I could be wrong.

DKG, precisely what I have been saying for ages now. It doesnt make sense investing time and money for a TG of 1000/2000 people does it. What Mahindra has done has made something "Cool" which appeals to both the "Dudes" and the hardcore offroaders and also the people with the "midlife crisis"

My female Friends who have no idea about how cars work or have no inclination to find out anything about OTRing found the THAR sexy. That says it all. This car is a chick magnet and we all know it.

Originally Posted by BlackRaven

@4x4addict: I have not booked the Thar but very close to doing so. I am new to the Jeep world and am waiting for the official review here to tell me if there are any major shortcomings if used as a secondary city vehicle. I am not worried about it on the OTR front, so major issues there won't sway my decisions.

Regards

i think these two statements sum up the target audience.. newbies to the 4x4 world and posers. @blackraven -no offence meant; this debate has gone on way too long. the only attraction seems to be the engine and i think Xtreme power can address that need more competently than M&M me thinks. A prpoer 4x4 can not be mass manufactured but needs to be custom built. M&M has been doling out junk for decades and this is no different.

cheers

[Samurai]

The offroaders want a refined engine, but something uncomplicated. That means no CRDe and no ECU. Something like XYLO D2 engine.
The offroaders want leaf spring & solid axle in the front.

The lifestylers want lockable hard top.
The lifestylers want AC.
The lifestylers want front facing rear seats.

I want all the above. But Thar somehow avoided delivering all the above. Yes, Thar MDI has leaf spring and non CRDe engine, but that is neither a refined engine nor well put together as Thar CRDe. Thar has managed to disappoint both offroaders and lifestylers, as of now.

That is why many of us like me are still going to wait until we see some improvements.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by ex670c

How will a Solid Axle prevent people from taking it for leisurely pursuits?

Arka we've been over this many a time. An IFS will have inherent advantages on ride comfort both onroad and offroad (trail driving at speed)

For the kind of offroading most people will do the IFS will not disappoint. End result is more people will appreciate the car for its car like road manners and ride comfort and reasonable offroadability.

Solid axle vehicles are crude and daft as family vehicles where comfort on long drives is paramount. You can be rest assured that not a single family will buy the MDI because they want a solid axled offroader. They will invariably prefer the CRDe version for its superior comfort.

or it has solid axle hence it will sell

I honestly don't think this is the case. By default the solid axle Jeeps are the cheapest and hence they sell. Give a cop or taxi driver a car which is more stable at highway speeds and he'll anyday prefer a IFS based car. The Trax Toofan dominates the transport market in rural India and if IFS were such a huge maintenance issue no one would be buying those.

And how many MDI will be bought new by offroaders? I doubt many ! Not when you have a dramatically superior handling vehicle in the CRDe

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by Samurai

The offroaders want a refined engine, but something uncomplicated. That means no CRDe and no ECU. Something like XYLO D2 engine.
The offroaders want leaf spring & solid axle in the front.

The lifestylers want lockable hard top.
The lifestylers want AC.
The lifestylers want front facing rear seats.

I want all the above. But Thar somehow avoided delivering all the above. Yes, Thar MDI has leaf spring and non CRDe engine, but that is neither a refined engine nor well put together as Thar CRDe. Thar has managed to disappoint both offroaders and lifestylers, as of now.

That is why many of us like me are still going to wait until we see some improvements.

This is exactly what we need. And this makes so much more sense. I would definitely be very keen on pulling out my cheque book for a jeep in this configuration.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

I am not asking for a Rubicon. I am asking for a Mahindra Legend with a better engine. How is that going to be a lot more expensive than the MDI mm540 for which the ex showrooom price is something like 4.8 Lakhs?

Drive the Thar and use it for the offroad events. You will like it. Its not as bad as people are making it out to be. It IS your Indian Rubicon !! Recognise it !!

Originally Posted by Samurai

The offroaders want a refined engine, but something uncomplicated. That means no CRDe and no ECU. Something like XYLO D2 engine.
The offroaders want leaf spring & solid axle in the front.

The lifestylers want lockable hard top.
The lifestylers want AC.
The lifestylers want front facing rear seats.

I want all the above. But Thar somehow avoided delivering all the above. Yes, Thar MDI has leaf spring and non CRDe engine, but that is neither a refined engine nor well put together as Thar CRDe. Thar has managed to disappoint both offroaders and lifestylers, as of now.

That is why many of us like me are still going to wait until we see some improvements.

You guys wanted the 540 you have it ! But you are still not happy !!

Now you say you want a 540 but with Thar like refinement and finish but don't want the CRDe engine !

Pretty soon the mfg's will stop listening as they will think you are impossible to please Ultimately your segment is too tiny and inconsequential Sharath. Its the market the Thar is intended to target which is the serious game here and I'm sure they will have a a/c hartop version soon for the "lifestylers" as you call it

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by DKG

Arka we've been over this many a time. An IFS will have inherent advantages on ride comfort both onroad and offroad (trail driving at speed)

For the kind of offroading most people will do the IFS will not disappoint. End result is more people will appreciate the car for its car like road manners and ride comfort and reasonable offroadability.

Solid axle vehicles are crude and daft as family vehicles where comfort on long drives is paramount. You can be rest assured that not a single family will buy the MDI because they want a solid axled offroader. They will invariably prefer the CRDe version for its superior comfort.

I honestly don't think this is the case. By default the solid axle Jeeps are the cheapest and hence they sell. Give a cop or taxi driver a car which is more stable at highway speeds and he'll anyday prefer a IFS based car. The Trax Toofan dominates the transport market in rural India and if IFS were such a huge maintenance issue no one would be buying those.

And how many MDI will be bought new by offroaders? I doubt many ! Not when you have a dramatically superior handling vehicle in the CRDe

Hi DKG,

If Solid Axles were so Daft as you put it, most of the world would have gotten rid of it, even the newest JEEP Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited is Solid Axle albeit with Coil Springs, this is considered a family oriented Off-Road vehicle in USA.

Lets see what kind of off-road most people do.
What are they doing right now is the JEEPTHRILLS & TeamBHP kind of off-road which is pretty demanding on the Scorpio's especially the Front Axle.

Also axle aside if some one want's to carry their family along just because a MM540 got IFS, he is one helluva family man.

What about

1) All Weather protection. Have you seen how much dust gets into an MM540, in a short City drive.

2) Seating and Luggage. (An INDIAN Urban Family (HW2K) with luggage cannot fit or seat in a MM550, front facing or not, please add recovery & off-road gear to the list and miscellaneous lifestyle gear (Fishing Tackle/Life-Jackets/Aero models etc)

3) Even if you do carry what protection for the valuable gear?

Imagine driving BLR-Mumbai at 140Kmph on time for the off-road, and on the trail the CV Joint Snaps, or the Rack & Pinion Steering strips, The Chicks will definitely have a field day.

Above is only possible if the potholes on the Highway, don't get the IFS First.

The Rural Market is not dominated by the Trax Toofan, even there M&M reigns supreme (Savari/Bolero/Major/MAXX/Commander), on road and rough road use the Bolero Derived IFS, and the Lower end OKBJ Dead Axle.

Regards,

Arka

[musicmanaman]

Originally Posted by Samurai

The offroaders want a refined engine, but something uncomplicated. That means no CRDe and no ECU. Something like XYLO D2 engine.
The offroaders want leaf spring & solid axle in the front.

The lifestylers want lockable hard top.
The lifestylers want AC.
The lifestylers want front facing rear seats.

I want all the above. But Thar somehow avoided delivering all the above. Yes, Thar MDI has leaf spring and non CRDe engine, but that is neither a refined engine nor well put together as Thar CRDe. Thar has managed to disappoint both offroaders and lifestylers, as of now.

That is why many of us like me are still going to wait until we see some improvements.

I have exactly the same views, Thar will make sence if the above is implemented, otherwise one is better off buying an old jeep and doing it up.