[discoverwild]

^ That sums the regular jeeps around. LOL!

But how does that account for the Thar, which is speculated to be much much more a lifestyle vehicle to pull chicks in? Forget us, the lowly guys who want a better off-roader. We are not even on the map of Mahindra.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by DKG

Arka the Thar MDI 4x4 is there with solid axles, what's the problem with that car?

Hi DKG,

The Thar MDI is BS3 so its not for the metros, where BS4 is in fashion.
The Front & Rear Axles (51/51 Inches) are the Worst M&M produces currently, can be interpreted as Cheapest.

Regards,

Arka

PS - Still this is going to be the best-seller

[Xinger]

Originally Posted by discoverwild

But how does that account for the Thar

Old habits (and assembly line practices) die hard!!

While the guys over at the marketing department may have turned over a new leaf (spring), the chaps who screw the nuts and tighten the bolts are still the same, doing the same thing they've been doing for decades...

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

A Car cannot be converted from LHD to RHD just by some Garage. Things have to be "ENGINEERED". Ask any real engineer, and he will agree!!

Cyrus these conversion shops are professional well engineered set up's run by great engineers, and they do this day in day out. All OE parts etc, its not that difficult either, if you have the money. So dont make point blank statements on things that you are not aware of. How do i know, coz i have lived with one in 1990's

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

The bottom line is this. The Thar, even though most of you appear to disagree, has no other competition in todays marketplace.

Its the Crde engine which makes it unique and its best selling point. Rest i was not very convinced for the OTR price quoted.

Originally Posted by DKG

The way this car is configured will most certainly bring more people into the sport of offroading than any other car presently on the Indian scene today.

And going offroad is not going to be extreme for everyone. Initially its more about this car taking people places which a family sedan can't. A small percentage of this breed of enthusiasts will/may eventually warm up to the potential of experiencing some more serious offroad fun, thanks to nationwide events like MGE and others.

100% yes, for a beginner who is more into adventure trail it is the PERFECT fit!

Originally Posted by DKG

For any group considering themselves as purist offroaders you will have to grow to the size of 1000 units a month potential to be taken seriously by any mfg let alone M&M.
==============
In the end its all about economics. What sells in numbers gets made !!

Again a 100% correct statement, and hence i really dont react to the comment that M&M is the savior of offroader statement!

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

My female Friends who have no idea about how cars work or have no inclination to find out anything about OTRing found the THAR sexy. That says it all. This car is a chick magnet and we all know it.

On the contrary the whole test drive of about 1 hour in the heart of the city, evoked absolutely zilch interest from the fairer sex on the road

Originally Posted by DKG

I'm glad you raised a very interesting point because let me share a very different perspective a lot of women share about Jeeps. I know of quite a few, my sister included (who happens to have grown up in a car enthusiast home) who consider Jeeps as "junks" They call it a car for "losers" who cannot make it in life and spend time tinkering with a piece of junk as they can't afford anything anyway ! The first time I heard that I said "Ouch" that hurts !! But being a nutcase I went ahead and still bought one and love it. But she still hasn't sat in it and refuses to ever step in one !

Cyrus this is the reality ^^^^

Originally Posted by DKG

Women in any market matter in the buying decision and this feedback from your side is great news. If women are finding the Thar sexy it ties in with my understanding of how the Wrangler was popular with the young crowd in the US. And it wasn't for offroading. It was just a cool vehicle to drive around town.

Unfortunately that % of women in India is around .002% I know coz none of the women folks in my family really appreciate jeep's, even though some of them are real outdoor's lovers. They still prefer an Innova to take them for even trecks!

Originally Posted by BlackRaven

+1.

I brought the THAR CRDe home yesterday during my test drive and was not sure how my wife and daughter would react. Beleive me, they were astounded, loved it and it got a double thumbs up. My wife drives a Civic and Lancer today.

For your use its ok, coz you are looking it as a 2nd or 3rd vehicle. But still i would suggest you to wait a lil longer for AC version to come. Have you driven a non AC Maruti 800 in our BLR summer? Just a thought.

Originally Posted by DKG

For the kind of offroading most people will do the IFS will not disappoint. End result is more people will appreciate the car for its car like road manners and ride comfort and reasonable offroadability.

Again DKG talks from real life situations, yes IFS is the way to go and it will keep the newb's happy. Thats it.

Originally Posted by DKG

Solid axle vehicles are crude and daft as family vehicles where comfort on long drives is paramount. You can be rest assured that not a single family will buy the MDI because they want a solid axled offroader. They will invariably prefer the CRDe version for its superior comfort.

This i am not sure, if technology can be incorporated comfort can definitely be increased, even with fixed axle. But at a cost!

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi DKG,

If Solid Axles were so Daft as you put it, most of the world would have gotten rid of it, even the newest JEEP Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited is Solid Axle albeit with Coil Springs, this is considered a family oriented Off-Road vehicle in USA.

Arka also has a point and this is what i was referring ^^^

Originally Posted by ex670c

Lets see what kind of off-road most people do.
What are they doing right now is the JEEPTHRILLS & TeamBHP kind of off-road which is pretty demanding on the Scorpio's especially the Front Axle.

This also i agree and i have the same doubts. Only time will tell and let me be very candid there are others who are also taking a wait and watch approach, though they are mesmerized by the Crde engine.

Originally Posted by ex670c

1) All Weather protection. Have you seen how much dust gets into an MM540, in a short City drive.
===========
3) Even if you do carry what protection for the valuable gear?

BlueRaven please read the above and think, and hence i suggested you to wait earlier ^^^^

Originally Posted by Hondaism

Well, I'd been contemplating in getting a 4x4 vehicle as my second one for Fridays-Sundays and am in love with the Gypsy 1.3 MPFI for its off roading capabilities, having driven it first hand in Leh/Thois & Rajasthan. Then comes along the Thar and makes me double minded with its engine. Have lined up a test drive next week, so will be able to comment first hand after the walloping . But the vehicle looks amazing and has a good engine

For the leh trips and some adventure safari, you need not wait to decide! Just go and book The Thar.

Originally Posted by Hondaism

• Aircon - Std fitment
• Choice of hard tops - Full/Cabin and the extended ones ( Optional)
• Better seats - Std Fitment
• Winch - Std Fitment
• A slot for the GPS Navigation device - 4.3 inches would do - Std
• Front facing bucket seats (with safety belt) for the folks sitting in the back and getting hammerred - Std Fitment

We share the same feelings!

Originally Posted by rrsteer

One of the highlights of the Thar seems to be its handling and on road behaviour, especially at high speeds. I just wanted to put this in context. So, is the Thar much better than the M&M jeeps in this context. Or is it even better than the Scorpio in this respect?

Definitely better than MM but not as good as Scorpio, since its heavier. Has its plus and minus actually compared to scorpio. One thing i would be vary and caution all the adopters would be the steering. Its super joy and sensitive to use inside the city, but the same can be quite unnerving on a high speed 6 lane. So careful, tame the vehicle before you push it beyond expectations.

Originally Posted by ex670c

PS - Still this is going to be the best-seller

Mdi is going to sell well, just give it to the mallu high range towns and they will consume more than what M&M can produce. Just because thats the kind of vehicle that can run without taking a breath, as a estate vehicle, as a people carrier or the plantation owner to the nearest club.

[Xinger]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

On the contrary the whole test drive of about 1 hour in the heart of the city, evoked absolutely zilch interest from the fairer sex on the road

Er... maybe it also had something to do with the driver?

On a more serious (and less libelous) note, to be fair to the fairer sex, you can't really expect them to get excited about something like this:


Now if you were driving something like this it would have been a different matter:

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Xinger

Er... maybe it also had something to do with the driver?

Thank god i was not the only driver, read carefully entire test drive

Originally Posted by Xinger

Now if you were driving something like this it would have been a different matter:
Attachment 474362

True but at what price OR would you rather buy a comfortable hatch?

That is where the failure of Thar Crde is. <<Man how i hate this Thar Di and Crde business, world was much simpler few months back!>>

[sidindica]

made this for my FB DP

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by DKG

You guys wanted the 540 you have it ! But you are still not happy !!

Now you say you want a 540 but with Thar like refinement and finish but don't want the CRDe engine !

Pretty soon the mfg's will stop listening as they will think you are impossible to please Ultimately your segment is too tiny and inconsequential Sharath. Its the market the Thar is intended to target which is the serious game here and I'm sure they will have a a/c hartop version soon for the "lifestylers" as you call it

Why is it impossible DKG? Take the Bolero SLX 4WD, put the Xylo D2 engine and change the wheelbase/entry-exit-angle to that of Thar. Voila! How much more will this add to the price to the Bolero SLX?

Why, Suzuki is able to give similar package in Jimny. I am not even thinking of Rubicon. I am a realist. I am only asking within the capability of M&M.

Originally Posted by funkykar

Some more..

The lifestylers want power windows. (the current winding handle in THAR is very very filmsy!)
The lifestylers want 2WD. (To reduce cost)
The lifestylers want better lock system for tailgate. (India Garage THAR's tailgate doesn't open!)
The lifestylers want better seats!

It is not really some more. 2WD can't be used in offroading. The power windows are not a must, a sturdier winding handle can suffice. The locking and seats were already covered by me. I am not asking for things that can be easily added by the owners.

Originally Posted by Xinger

There seem to be a lot of people here who wish the Thar was more like the Jeep Wrangler. Well, looks like the Wrangler ain't worth its weight in gold after all. Here a couple of reviews from TOPGEAR (home of TBHP's favorite car guy Jeremy Clarkson):

Jeremy Clarkson is an entertainer, you can't really take his reviews seriously for purchase decisions. He is judging the offroading Jeep as a sedan/SUV user, which makes the whole point moot.

[DKG]

Okay here's the deal guys. Since I know where all the purists are coming from make a wishlist of parts you need, chassis, axles, engines (mhawk) included and come to Hyderabad. I'll try to get you everything brand new. I am not promising but someone I know said he'll get me anything I want brand new. I've already bought two chassis and two 1.8 litre petrol isuzu engines for future projects, a new front and rear, so I'm inclined to think he's not a bullshitter

So make yourself the dream offroaders from parts. Just do it, I'll help you by putting you onto this guy who is pretty confident of getting us new parts.

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Jeremy Clarkson is an entertainer, you can't really take his reviews seriously for purchase decisions. He is judging the offroading Jeep as a sedan/SUV user, which makes the whole point moot.

Not to forget this guy drives some of the most exotic cars on the planet on a daily basis, his bench-marks are definitely very different from ours.

For him all SUVs are boat-like (the Audi Q7 for example) for us the same cars are comfortable, solid, fast highway machines.

M&M should send across a Thar and see what he thinks of the ride and handling.

[DKG]

Jaggu the only reason why I mentioned the soild axle rule is a daft proposal when creature comforts and family concerns on stability are important is that for any wheel to efficiently track the ground at high speeds the unsprung weight needs to come down. Even on an aluminium case diff the weight of a new age solid axle will be far greater than a modern IFS. Its no contest guys, if you want supreme handling, dynamic safety at highway speeds IFS is the only way.

So you are coming to the offroading world taking care first of a major aspect in modern family buying criteria, of comfort and dynamic safety.

Then the question arises is the Thar a decent offroader when it delivers to a great extent on the comfort aspect on highways. The answer is yes.

A purist offroad enthusiast will always swear by solid axles and fully floating axles. But your average Thar customer is too far away from that world of extreme offroading.

You all know I love the CJ3B and delight in its offroad prowess. But I also appreciate where the Thar is coming from and what it will do for the fledging Indian offroad industry and sport. Its a fabulous shot in the arm. Atleast I believe it is.

Just give it a chance, a fair chance. Don't write it off purely based on specs.

[Xinger]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Jeremy Clarkson is an entertainer, you can't really take his reviews seriously for purchase decisions. He is judging the offroading Jeep as a sedan/SUV user, which makes the whole point moot.

I quite agree with you about Clarkson's reviews being more 'geared' towards entertainment, but I hardly think someone who has lived and breathed automobiles for 30-40 years would be so naive as to judge an offroading vehicle with the same yardstick as a sedan.

And contrary to what you might think (oh that guy only likes things which cost over a million pounds sterling and have the tag 'supercar' attached) he has been offroading. In fact he owns something called an Argocat with 8-wheel drive . Here it is, a jeep cherokee review from the man himself. Yes, it is quite entertaining!

Here's one more (he actually likes the Outlander, so there goes the theory that for him all SUV's are boat like). He actually opens this one with a few observations on the 'offroading community':

Outlander 2.2 DI-DC Diamond

Look, mums – a 4x4 planet saver

Jeremy Clarkson

All black men are thieves. All Jews would sell their mothers for a pound. All Muslims are suicide bombers and everyone in Ireland is as thick as a slab of cheese. Yes. Right. And everyone with a Chelsea tractor is a stick-thin blonde whose head is so full of useless social engagements that she can’t actually be bothered to steer round other cars, street furniture or bus shelters. It ain’t necessarily so. All sorts of people buy 4x4s for all sorts of reasons. And contrary to what the global warmists would have us believe, only some are stick-thin blonde women who won’t actually stop until the underside of their car is so jammed up with run-over pedestrians the wheels won’t go round any more. The wave of hatred, then, that engulfs the off-roader is nothing more than ill informed prejudice. And what makes my blood boil is that things are getting worse.

I do not have much time for people who get dressed up in camouflage clothing and take to the countryside in their Land Rovers to see who can get most covered in mud. This is known as “green laning” and it’s as ridiculous as pushing a kettle over a frozen lake. I wouldn’t want to stop them doing it, though, partly because they’d all be at home otherwise, downloading unusual images from the internet, but mostly because it’s fairly harmless. Oh no it isn’t, say the ramblists. They argue that green laning is noisy and causes polar bears to drown. One group, the Yorkshire Dales Green Lanes Alliance, says that taking a vehicle for the purposes of fun onto a green lane should be “an offence”.

Now, even if we ignore the difficulties of policing such a law, or of making a case stick in the courts - “I wasn’t doing it for fun” is hard to disprove - we are left astounded at the narrow-mindedness of these people. Not even the communists or the Nazis attempted to make “fun” an offence. And unfortunately it doesn’t end here because those of a four-wheel-drive disposition are being targeted, not only in the countryside, but in towns as well with local councils saying now that anyone who drives a large car on the school run must pay £75 a year for the privilege. This is insane. Like many parents, my wife and I have a big, seven-seater Volvo, not because we used to lie awake at night dreaming of the day when we could own such a thing, and not because we always wanted, more than anything, a car that sounds like a canal boat. No. We have it because we are part of a school-run car-sharing scheme. And the fact is this: by filling our Volvo with six children every morning, we are keeping three other cars off the road. So why should we pay more than someone who takes just two kids to school in a Mini? In reality, a Mini takes up exactly the same amount of space on the road as a Volvo XC90, so therefore, it should be the Mini driver who’s made to pay a premium while those of us with large, high-occupancy vehicles, are allowed to proceed for free. I mean it. I would far rather own a Cooper S than a Volvo. It is better looking, nicer to drive, cheaper to run and cheaper to buy. But I don’t. I sacrifice my love of driving, my love of cars and the contents of my bank for the public good. I should therefore be rewarded with gifts, free passage and some thank-you letters from the world’s polar bears.

Yes, I know I’m supposed to make my children go to school on the bus, but I can’t - for three reasons. One, they’d get lost. Two, they’d catch a disease. And three, there isn’t one. So, if you are in the same boat as me, and you fancy the idea of a school-run-sharing seven-seater, there are many choices, and almost all of them are terrible in some way. The Audi Q7 is ugly. The Land Rover Discovery weighs more than the moon. The Vauxhall Zafira is a Vauxhall, and the Ford S-Max, while attractive and good to drive, is a mini people carrier . . . and I’m sorry but nothing says you’ve given up in life quite so spectacularly as a car designed entirely to be practical. It’s motoring’s equivalent of a tartan zip-up slipper. Small wonder, then, the XC90 is almost a part of the school uniform these days. It’s practical. It’s reliable. It has a reputation for safety. With a towbar on the back, it’ll pull a horsebox. I even have a friend who fitted winter tyres and uses it for shooting. But there is one problem. When it first came out, it was good value at less than £30,000. But now the top models are nudging £50,000 or more. And that makes it even more expensive than a packet of pasta.

Which is why my eye was drawn last week to the new Mitsubishi Outlander. Here we have a car that seems to do everything the Volvo does, in a smaller package, for less money. A lot less. The range starts at less than £20,000 and even the most expensive model is only £27,000. I do not know how such a low price is possible when, so far as I can see, a cut of the profits will be going to every car firm in the world. The Outlander, amazingly, is based on the same platform as the Mitsubishi Evo X that I reviewed last week. But the car itself was designed in conjunction with Mercedes-Benz when it was in bed with Chrysler, so it shares a great many bits and pieces with the Dodge Nitro, a silly car for silly Americans. Then there’s the French connection. The Outlander, having been designed in America, Japan and Germany, is being built in conjunction with Peugeot and Citroën, which offer their own versions of the same car. And the 2 litre turbodiesel engine is made by Volkswagen. No matter: despite the United Nations nature of the background, the end result is quite good. We’ll deal with the drawbacks first, and that means we have to start in the boot, where there is an essay on how the rear seats should be raised and lowered from the floor. I think it’s designed to be difficult, because then you’ll never actually discover that when the seats are in place there’s no rear legroom, at all, and not much boot left either. It’s best, then, that on a shared school run, to put the kids you don’t like very much back there.

Next is the four-wheel-drive system. Most of the time you’re in two-wheel drive and that doesn’t really work when the car is fully loaded. Every time you put your foot down, the front end goes light, the driven wheels lose their grip and everything, for a little while, goes all wobbly. Best, I think, to hang the extra fuel consumption and leave it in 4WD all the time. And that’s it. Those are the drawbacks. All two of them. The rest of the car is well made, well equipped, well trimmed and, like the Evo, fitted with Mitsubishi’s brilliant sat nav system. I also think it is good looking and, despite the fact you can only have it with a diesel engine, quite good to drive. It feels much lighter and more responsive than you might imagine. Of course, it’s not as much fun as a Mini, it’s not as practical as a Volvo and it won’t be as cheap as its sister car from Citroën . . . not if they do their usual trick of offering customers £1m cashback and the chance to sleep with the managing director’s wife every other Saturday.

But as an overall package, it’s a good way of getting into a car-sharing scheme. Yes, you’ll be charged £75 by idiotic, blinkered councils, but look at it this way - you’ll save the planet, keep the polar bears alive, cut congestion and, best of all, on the mornings when it’s not your turn, have a lie-in.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by DKG

I am not promising but someone I know said he'll get me anything I want brand new.

One brand new hurricane engine and whole set of woriginal leaf springs for CJ3B D

Originally Posted by DKG

Its no contest guys, if you want supreme handling, dynamic safety at highway speeds IFS is the only way.

Though i agree IFS will definitely handle better and will give a great ride. I do not feel it offers so much of advantage when compared to a modern coil over fixed axle design, especially on ride front. And at the end of the day the traditional leaf at rear do play the spoil sport in the overall ride (unless loaded). All this in our Indian roads where 140 KMPH is idiotic and quite difficult to maintain. Thats what i feel.

Roll was considerably less "compared" to a traditional jeep, but it was still there just to remind Thar is a jeep afterall. Rear side bench with its tall seating was very UNcomfortable with just some spirited lane changes.

In short i agree IFS has its plus's, but at the end of the day if avoiding IFS can cut 75-80k INR from the price of the Crde? I would have been waiting now after paying up Dream on!

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

One brand new hurricane engine and whole set of woriginal leaf springs for CJ3B D

Guess what !! I already have a brand new Hurricane block and head and crank etc

[Jaggu]

<wish this smiliee had a more pleasant smile>

Originally Posted by DKG

Guess what !! I already have a brand new Hurricane block and head and crank etc

I know, thats why i will take your current engine off your hands when you are ready to replace it