[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by DKG

Avalakonda, AKC, EXAMM definitely are not extreme offroading so what terrain are we talking of that we are all so worried the Thar will fail miserably on account of its IFS?

And this is exactly my point ^^^ for beginners and moderate trails Thar will be a great fit, and i never disputed that. If you rewind back a little you will see that. Apologize if i was not being clear. I Am not writing off Thar in any way, on the contrary it will bring in a great amount of competition for our aging war horses! Just from the engine power itself.But once you mature and move on to slightly difficult stuff (which we quite often land up doing, in smaller private groups), then things become murky for a stock Thar. Again i know for a fact that moding the existing IFS is not child's play.

So for a person with a decent 550 or Gypsy and who is already into offroading, i would really not suggest Thar. He is better off building his older vehicle.

Since you mentioned Avalaconda, this is a classic example where one has to be very careful with Thar. There are many area's which can be quite nasty on the IFS, and front drive shafts etc. Many of us know and has seen it happening in similar IFS vehicle

Another example the kuttikanam track again can be brutal on Thar, if one is not careful. But there are areas out there, where one has to push it, no other way out. So what do we do, worry about big bills and park on side or just push it?? Especially after driving 600+ kms for just 2km track

Old jeeps, gypsies we really dont care, Thar with my own money i definitely will. Its just like Speedy's comparison, for him he would rather do it with Thar rather than with a Fortuner or ML.

ps: I think we both are speaking the same language here, only thing am talking more from "what do you do once you start graduating to higher levels"?

What Thar is going to offer is 100% comfort and great cruising ability, where there is no other competition, no doubts. So if that is the foremost thing for you, go for it. But if you are looking a pure offroader, then think twice. Gypsy brand new will be a better compromise is what i beleive. If you are moderate offroader with loads of adventure trips, then again Thar will win.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by DKG

I honestly don't think IFS is such a bad deal as has been made out here at TBHP. Toyota engineers wouldn't switch from rigid axles on the big Cruiser or give the new FJ a IFS setup if they believed it was necessarily a massive compromise over solid axles. Just check out what the FJ Cruisers do at Moab Utah. Our so called "hardcore" solid axle Jeeps will burn a clutch, flip fart and fall dead on the first climb !

Hi DKG,

Since the Thar has been promoted as the Off-Road enthusiast's dream vehicle, and you go to the extent of calling it the RUBICON.

Some features of the JEEP Wrangler RUBICON.
1) Solid Axle Multi-Link Coil Spring
2) OEM Front & Rear Diff Lock
3) Low- Speed T-Case (4:1)
4) Roll-Cage

This is OEM, at it is expensive 32,000USD.

Thar CRDe features
1) Front IFS
2) Rear Leaf Sprung
3) No LSD/MLD

Toyota FJ Cruiser VS Jeep JK Wrangler - TRD - 4-Wheel & Off-Road Magazine

Even if a first time off road enthusiast buys this vehicle he cannot modify it should he feel the need.

1) Front & Rear Locker/LSD - Only Rear is possible in INDIA, that too with imported Lockers.

2) Tyres -- Front Does not have the Clearance.

3) Winch -- Since its a NGCS MM550XD Chassis, the winch can be fitted, but vehicle will slouch forward, and nothing can be done to the IFS, to compensate for the additional weight.

4)Suspension Lift -- Front Axle
to get a proper lift you will need, Longer Lower Arms & Upper Arms & Axle Shafts & Rack & Pinion Steering.

Basically re-engineer the front.

Rear Axle-- Anything can be done since it is Leaf Springs.

Since this vehicle cannot be modified, even if the person wants to ignore the warranty or after it has lapsed, this vehicle cannot be modified, and he will be back to square one i.e re-build a JEEP for off-road purpose.

BTW, what has burning the Clutch got to do with "Hardcore" off-road?

Regards,

Arka

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by speedy

HAHA not really, I do offroad with the Fortuner and soft road (garden drives) with the ML. None of these cars have given any trouble only the ML restricts my offroading due to the 19" wheels. In comparission even if i do end up breaking things on the Thar, it still would be cheaper than breaking things on the Fortuner or the ML. What do you think?

What's expensive for you might not be so for me. Rather its the other way around in our case. My Scorpio is my ML, and my '59 Willy's which is going through a painstakingly long budget imposed rebuild is my Fortuner.

From that perspective, maintaining a THAR for the offroad trips we in bangalore are accustomed to just sounds perverse, evil, and downright cruel.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Arka, other things also snap in trails, remember Avalakonda?

Let me try:-

1) Both crankcases look same but there are differences in them. I just had a look at the drawings of the crankcase and oil sump of both these models in question, and they are different. Only thing I can state is the NEF variant is more bulky.

2) Arka, your observation regarding the movement of pumpkin is correct. Ironically, the movement mentioned by you translates into 2.1 mm (nominal). For an assembly of this size a dimension of 2.1 mm will be fired even due to the tolerance stack up built into the design. So that movement is inconsequential.

Spike

Hi Spike,

I remember all the breakages, over the years, hence I would prefer some of the critical components fitted as OEM.

That includes OKBJ & FFRA.

1) If the Engine Block is the same for the TCIC & CRDe engine, the torque and BHP is similar 23-27Kgm & 97-107 BHP, can't the crankcase be interchanged.

2) If the difference in location is nominal, what advantage does the IFS setup provide in locating the front axle?

Regards,

Arka

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Hi Arka,

No point in me answering the same question again and again. This has been debated to death. Somehow I feel, solving Schrodinger Wave Equations was much simpler, please have a look:-

Schrödinger equation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Spike

PS- Nice start to 2011 (with your first post)

[Ricky_63]

Let me tell a joke. There is all this hype of the "launch" & Sterling Motors (Gurgaon Dealers) don't even want to answer the phone.

Pathetic to put it mildly.

I am willing to write a cheque for the TOP MODEL & there is this dealer who does not wish to even respond or take a call !! Twisted sense of humour OR useless dealer



I would sell the Pajero tomorrow IF I get all the driving comfort & better power. The potential is there, but nobody seems to take this segment seriously !! Should I wait for the SSYONG (or whatever it is called ) ??

[DKG]

Ok guys I have a very simple resolution to this long standing issue and here's how we can address this, GTO your help is needed !

Lets structure a review of the Thar pitched directly against a 540. Create obstacles which you will then test both vehicles against. Ideally create stuff you believe an IFS vehicle cannot handle.

My gut feel is the Thar will do everything the solid axle Jeeps can do and maybe even surprise us all by doing more

Maybe just so that we are fair to the M&M team let them also decide on obstacles that demonstrate stuff they feel the Thar can do which the 540 cannot handle

I think this will be fun @ Arka I meant our old Jeeps when faced with extreme offroading obstacles will end up at best burning clutches attempting to scale the obstacles.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by DKG

Ok guys I have a very simple resolution to this long standing issue and here's how we can address this, GTO your help is needed !

Lets structure a review of the Thar pitched directly against a 540. Create obstacles which you will then test both vehicles against. Ideally create stuff you believe an IFS vehicle cannot handle.

My gut feel is the Thar will do everything the solid axle Jeeps can do and maybe even surprise us all by doing more

Maybe just so that we are fair to the M&M team let them also decide on obstacles that demonstrate stuff they feel the Thar can do which the 540 cannot handle

I think this will be fun @ Arka I meant our old Jeeps when faced with extreme offroading obstacles will end up at best burning clutches attempting to scale the obstacles.

DKG saar,

1: We will burn clutches only because we use antiquated engines. And

2: Arka will rather push his jeep than accept defeat. Actually he will make fiery enzyme/bala push his jeep

Re: IFS, one off-road trip is not going to mean anything. We have to wait for a longer term ownership and service history from a serious offroader before many others will begin putting their money in this vehicle from the offroad community.

The wild-life/touring community have no doubt found their almost perfect vehicle. But without AC and hardtop, even they are feeling left out in the sun.

[.anshuman]

Originally Posted by Ricky_63

[b]There is all this hype of the "launch" & Sterling Motors (Gurgaon Dealers) don't even want to answer the phone.

Sterling Auto is not listed on the Thar website. The list of dealers selling Thar can be seen here.

[sreejeshmp]

DKG,

Exactly this is what we need to do first.

I am sure this IFS talks are just for time pass or making the beginners confused.Lets see how many solid axle Thar will be here in team-bhp.

- Sreejesh

[twistwrist]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi Spike,

I remember all the breakages, over the years, hence I would prefer some of the critical components fitted as OEM.

That includes OKBJ & FFRA.

1) If the Engine Block is the same for the TCIC & CRDe engine, the torque and BHP is similar 23-27Kgm & 97-107 BHP, can't the crankcase be interchanged.

2) If the difference in location is nominal, what advantage does the IFS setup provide in locating the front axle?

Regards,

Arka

YouTube - Modern Marvels - Jeeps 4 of 5

As Arka was always suggesting for solid axles in front
Please play between time frames 2:26 & 3:48, to see the disadvantage of ifs .

[speedy]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

What's expensive for you might not be so for me. Rather its the other way around in our case. My Scorpio is my ML, and my '59 Willy's which is going through a painstakingly long budget imposed rebuild is my Fortuner.

From that perspective, maintaining a THAR for the offroad trips we in bangalore are accustomed to just sounds perverse, evil, and downright cruel.

This is exactly what i meant when i said offroading is an expensive sport. I take my fortuner everywhere a Gypsy or a MM550 goes, but there are some climbs i have to find an alternate route due to the bumpers, with the Thar i dont think i would need to do so. My Avtaar picture will give you an idea of what i do with the Fortuner and what you would see the Thar doing too, the ML does not do these sort of activities.

For the kind of offroading that we do in Extreme offroaders the Thar would do it all easily. I do not know how it is in other states. My only concern was there would only be a handfull who think like me, and more people that would hold 7 lakhs plus the cost to modify the car to their need and then maintainance if they damage something. Yes if you are told the warrenty is void then u would feel the pinch further.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by nitrous

It is known worldwide by audiophiles that LP aka vinyl records provide the highest audio fidelity.
Even higher than Audio CDs and DVD-As which have digital conversion losses.
Proof: HowStuffWorks "Is the sound on vinyl records better than on CDs or DVDs?"

Hi,
Have no intentions of getting into esoteric debates. But thought I'd comment on the audio/ electronics part.

"Everybody" knows LPs sound better than CDs. Received wisdom. Unfortunately scientifically wrong. They might 'sound' better. Just as valve amps 'sound' better. What we are actually hearing is the distortion. We like that distortion!

In the early days of the CD, the mastering process (the anti alias filter) introduced huge amounts of phase shift. It is no longer the case. But I don't think CDs will ever shake off that rap.

The article in howstuffworks is really bad science. Which is surprising.

Regards
Sutripta

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by offroad_maniac

This looks like a good idea. As people can only remove back panel with sides & then the front upper panel if required.
Will it be easy to set up?

Something like this, but make it more rectangular than curvy.
Also it will look better if rear part is made with some slope rather than a straight drop

Be careful of headroom! Esp if one puts in forward facing rear seats.

Regards
Sutripta

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Yes, why were you waiting for the parts catalog to come out?
Need part numbers to order parts!

Shift on the fly- While moving from 2WD to 4WD at low speeds, you need not bring the vehicle to a complete halt, in other words you can shift on the move.

So is the Thar TC a true shift on the fly system?

Spike

PS- Planning for a trip very soon, will keep you posted.

How similar/ different are the MDI/ CRDE chassis, esp. hardpoints. Engine mountings points. For the MDI, are the front spring perch points welded or riveted?

Regards
Sutripta

BTW, did you study mechanics, or quantum mechanics?