[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by DKG

My gut feel is the Thar will do everything the solid axle Jeeps can do and maybe even surprise us all by doing more

Sir you are again missing a very important point. More than anything, that engine will enable the vehicle to do many stuff, if not all. The point is what next? will you pay 40k for a bust CV or some 20k repairing the front IFS or are you better off with an old school design.

I hope you have seen the video posted, the inherent design of IFS make's it delicate, am not talking about toppling. But one wrong landing will leave the suspension geometry out of shape. Which actually happen quite often, especially if you have a very powerful vehicle to start with.

I feel this debate will never end. We have to accept that Thar is a capable vehicle and a good compromise for many. Understand its limitation wrt having IFS and move on.

[The Wolf]

Cost of fixing the jeep is a factor completely outside the offroad capability of that jeep and needs to be treated differently. Lets not try to misguide the masses along with ourselves here. I personally find fixing mahindras cheap (includes scorpios, boleros etc), some may not.....its the capability of the man not the machine more so often I firmly believe

Our OTRs are fairly basic as someone earlier said and a jeep like THAR crde will find that as easy as a walk in the park. Old jeeps make the terrain look difficult due to its capability, let that not be the basis of our assumption here.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I personally find fixing mahindras cheap (includes scorpios, boleros etc), some may not.....
======
Old jeeps make the terrain look difficult due to its capability, let that not be the basis of our assumption here.

Oh you got it really wrong my friend, please make a visit to a M&M dealer and ask for the price of drive train and suspension of 4x4 scorp before you make such BIG statements like you did now.

And please do not confuse the topic by bringing the old vehicle in here. There are others who use very modern vehicles and drive/driven in much more challenging terrain than you believe them to be. Not everything needs to be written and taken approval of.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Hi Arka,

No point in me answering the same question again and again. This has been debated to death. Somehow I feel, solving Schrodinger Wave Equations was much simpler, please have a look:-

Schrödinger equation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Spike
PS- Nice start to 2011 (with your first post)

Hi Spike,

Feels good to know you think I am worthy of understanding such mighty equations.

My interpretation of the equation, is pretty simple, when the Chassis and suspension flex, the engine fouls with the prop-shaft?

So far no-one from M&M has explained or done to death any question posed to death.

What is your take on using a narrower Prop-Shaft (Diameter & Spline) with a longer Spline/Yoke?

Also awaiting your comments on the indentation on the XD3P Crankcase for MM550XD's.

Originally Posted by DKG

Ok guys I have a very simple resolution to this long standing issue and here's how we can address this, GTO your help is needed !

Lets structure a review of the Thar pitched directly against a 540. Create obstacles which you will then test both vehicles against. Ideally create stuff you believe an IFS vehicle cannot handle.

My gut feel is the Thar will do everything the solid axle Jeeps can do and maybe even surprise us all by doing more

Maybe just so that we are fair to the M&M team let them also decide on obstacles that demonstrate stuff they feel the Thar can do which the 540 cannot handle

I think this will be fun @ Arka I meant our old Jeeps when faced with extreme offroading obstacles will end up at best burning clutches attempting to scale the obstacles.

Hi DKG,

Please make sure that the Thar in Question has a working winch fitted and M&M's choice of tyres.

And I will loan them a LSD for front (if it is 19 Spline) and convert the rear to FFRA, and loan them a 19 Spline Locker too.

Definitely will be fun.

wrt "our" JEEPs, I don't know about your JEEP, mine is not yet that Old.

Regards,

Arka

[DKG]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi DKG,

Please make sure that the Thar in Question has a working winch fitted and M&M's choice of tyres.

And I will loan them a LSD for front (if it is 19 Spline) and convert the rear to FFRA, and loan them a 19 Spline Locker too.

Definitely will be fun.

wrt "our" JEEPs, I don't know about your JEEP, mine is not yet that Old.

Regards,

Arka

Arka we are talking about the vehicle's ability not the winch's. Lets pitch your 540 against the Thar so that you won't feel the 540 chosen for the test was up to the mark. Plan a test and compare both the vehicles. You need to let BD know if your vehicle has a diff lock installed, he too can add one and then we can do a fair test to see why you believe the Thar will fail where your 540 will sail !

BTW no question of loaning a FFRA. Afterall we want to prove to BD his SFRA will snap right? So let him use the Thar with SFRA. We are trying to nail the SFRA and IFS as duds in the offroading world remember ! The test must demonstrate why you are so convinced that SFRA and IFS are non starters in the offroading world. So just dream up a test where his axle will snap while your 540 will walk through

Lets end this debate and settle the matter once and for all with a real test ! If you want to remove tyre effect from the equation then shod both vehicles with same tyres.

2011 is the year when offroading heavyweights will WALK THE TALK !! ....FINALLY !!!!

[Tejas@perioimpl]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

^^ GTO, what according to you must be the ideal differential ratio?

Spike

I would say 4.88 for stock tyre diameter and 5.38 for oversized tyres.

Originally Posted by Parm

im not trying to compare DI Thar with CRDe, but i definately see it as a plan B by many hardcore offroaders.

i wonder why any one has not started a DI vs CRDe thread!

I personally think the DI is too crude of an engine to be compared with the CRDe engine. And again metro people won't be able to buy the DI one.

Originally Posted by speedy

For the kind of offroading that we do in Extreme offroaders the Thar would do it all easily.

Sorry buddy, speak for yourself. You joined us after my jeep was sold and we just did small OTRs after that and there were also more newbies, so we did easier trails. Go through the older threads and see how we have broken solid axles of gypsies and gurkhas. EDIT: speaking of breaking: i have seen the gurkha break an axle twice but not the IFS.

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Sir you are again missing a very important point. More than anything, that engine will enable the vehicle to do many stuff, if not all. The point is what next? will you pay 40k for a bust CV or some 20k repairing the front IFS or are you better off with an old school design.

I hope you have seen the video posted, the inherent design of IFS make's it delicate, am not talking about toppling. But one wrong landing will leave the suspension geometry out of shape. Which actually happen quite often, especially if you have a very powerful vehicle to start with.

I feel this debate will never end. We have to accept that Thar is a capable vehicle and a good compromise for many. Understand its limitation wrt having IFS and move on.

Fully agree with Jaggu. Thar is highly capable, but will it last and at what cost?
One has to relearn their OTR driving skills with the Thar.

[KMT]

A one off 'shoot out' between a circa 10 yr old 550 and a brand new one is meaningless even if the Thar does win- after so much hype and time, is this the best they could do?
(It might prove the difference between solid axle and IFS but nothing more).

What about other basic design drawbacks such as-
-an intercooler mounted right in front, ready to be clogged by mud in a fjording or holed by a thorn bush while driving in scrub
- A 2-3 inch gap between the steering and dash, in a crash or if the steering kicks back, broken/bruised fingers are quite likely.
-The midcan of the exhaust hanging out like dogs '#@!!$' in the middle.
-Lack of creature comforts (ac/hardtop) and safety features (abs, collapsible steering column).

Given the technology at M&Ms disposal it is dissapointing that they have depended on some enthusiasts in the company to cobble together what they have in their ageing parts bin.

To those gentlemen who are drawing parallels between 911 & Rubicons & Minis & Beetles, if you do your Homework you will notice that apart from the name badge, every part is compeletely different. The designs have evolved with the times to keep up with technology, safety and customer requirements etc.

On a seperate note, I am sure that all of us are appreciative of the enthusiasts at M&M who take the time to spend time on this forum and take the brickbats we throw at them. No other manufacturer does this, and I think they do this not because they work for M&M but they are petrolheads at heart.

Overall it is great to see the progress in Thar but I am dissapointed that this is all they could come up with after such a long time. If I do buy one it will be bought grudgingly as I dont have any other choice.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by KMT

A one off 'shoot out' between a circa 10 yr old 550 and a brand new one is meaningless

Is it really ? when you have half a dozen folks trashing the Thar even before it gets a fair chance? Let there be a test so we understand that absolutes in the design world have little significance when you need to factor in other considerations such as creature comforts etc

I am of the opinion that the Thar will do all that a soild axle 540 will do. If it does this debate needs to rest that's all

even if the Thar does win- after so much hype and time, is this the best they could do?

Are you trying to suggest rather than this iteration the Indian public was better off with rebuilt Jeeps?

Mahindra can do better and will do if enough people buy the Thar. If the vehicle sells in reasonable numbers the next iteration will see more of a free hand to the R&D team

Given the technology at M&Ms disposal it is dissapointing that they have depended on some enthusiasts in the company to cobble together what they have in their ageing parts bin.

What's wrong with that? Is the Xenon flying off the shelves for Tata considering its a new vehicle with more R&D spend? The Indian public are not easy to crack. It will take a few years before mfg's have the confidence the 4x4 market is worth spending money to tailor make new ground up vehicles. Until then its commendable that a "few enthusiasts" within the company "cobbled" up a Thar for offroad enthusiasts

What was the alternative? Happy making rounds to mechanics to rebuild an old offroader?

To those gentlemen who are drawing parallels between 911 & Rubicons & Minis & Beetles, if you do your Homework you will notice that apart from the name badge, every part is compeletely different. The designs have evolved with the times (have they???) to keep up with technology, safety and customer requirements etc.

what a joke. You need to do your homework KMT. The 911's greatest flaw is the engine at the back. Are they touching it? Ask any engineer whether the engine should be there and they'll tell you NOOOOOOOOOOO !!!

BUTTTT !!! Porsche has accepted that its anathema to purists to want the 911 to be anything but its present guise with the engine at the back, albeit it being flawed. People across the world love that car for all its flaws. I don't know about you but I have driven 911's hard enough to have the tail coming out having me face the road the wrong way to know the engine shouldn't be out far back. Do I want the 911 to be midship? NO. Why? Because I like it to be quirky, and so do thousands of other purists. You misbehave with a 911 and it bites back hard, real hard. So the car is not about evolution in design and perfection in all aspects. Some aspects remain untouched and its more about drivers wanting the challenge to work around the flaws and enjoy the other mindblowing aspects of the car's performance. Porsche understands its the 911 experience and the flawed engine placement is part of the deal, a major part !

When Porsche redid the boxer to water cooled there was a huge outcry. Purists across the world wailed at the "death" of the legendary boxer. Porsche was very sure if they had to meet emission requirements the engine had to go water cooled. They had a mandate. It has to always remain a boxer, always a six, and it had to sound as raucous as the aircooled unit. They achieved it. And you'll be surprised to note there are many purists who believe the 911 died that day. I don't, I like it even now as the character remains.

On a seperate note, I am sure that all of us are appreciative of the enthusiasts at M&M who take the time to spend time on this forum and take the brickbats we throw at them. No other manufacturer does this, and I think they do this not because they work for M&M but they are petrolheads at heart.

You got that right !!

Overall it is great to see the progress in Thar but I am dissapointed that this is all they could come up with after such a long time. If I do buy one it will be bought grudgingly as I dont have any other choice.

Its not as bad as you think KMT. For those who grew up on a diet of old Jeeps its a huge leap forward. No need to feel so compromised in choosing a Thar !

[fazalaliadil]

Originally Posted by KMT

A one off 'shoot out' between a circa 10 yr old 550 and a brand new one is meaningless even if the Thar does win- after so much hype and time, is this the best they could do?
(It might prove the difference between solid axle and IFS but nothing more).

What about other basic design drawbacks such as-
-an intercooler mounted right in front, ready to be clogged by mud in a fjording or holed by a thorn bush while driving in scrub
- A 2-3 inch gap between the steering and dash, in a crash or if the steering kicks back, broken/bruised fingers are quite likely.
-The midcan of the exhaust hanging out like dogs '#@!!$' in the middle.
-Lack of creature comforts (ac/hardtop) and safety features (abs, collapsible steering column).

Given the technology at M&Ms disposal it is dissapointing that they have depended on some enthusiasts in the company to cobble together what they have in their ageing parts bin.

To those gentlemen who are drawing parallels between 911 & Rubicons & Minis & Beetles, if you do your Homework you will notice that apart from the name badge, every part is compeletely different. The designs have evolved with the times to keep up with technology, safety and customer requirements etc.

On a seperate note, I am sure that all of us are appreciative of the enthusiasts at M&M who take the time to spend time on this forum and take the brickbats we throw at them. No other manufacturer does this, and I think they do this not because they work for M&M but they are petrolheads at heart.

Overall it is great to see the progress in Thar but I am dissapointed that this is all they could come up with after such a long time. If I do buy one it will be bought grudgingly as I dont have any other choice.

KMT,
The above is one of the...actually the most logical, reasonable, fair, honest and unbiased post on this thread.

Loved the "The midcan of the exhaust hanging out like dogs '#@!!$' in the middle." part especially. Didn't need much to visualize.

BTW my under progress, CJ340 is also going to have the dogs '#@!!$' in the middle.

Mind it! Thar is value for money, compared to other 4X4's in the market.

We should drive together sometime.
Regards,

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by DKG

Arka we are talking about the vehicle's ability not the winch's. Lets pitch your 540 against the Thar so that you won't feel the 540 chosen for the test was up to the mark. Plan a test and compare both the vehicles. You need to let BD know if your vehicle has a diff lock installed, he too can add one and then we can do a fair test to see why you believe the Thar will fail where your 540 will sail !

BTW no question of loaning a FFRA. Afterall we want to prove to BD his SFRA will snap right? So let him use the Thar with SFRA. We are trying to nail the SFRA and IFS as duds in the offroading world remember ! The test must demonstrate why you are so convinced that SFRA and IFS are non starters in the offroading world. So just dream up a test where his axle will snap while your 540 will walk through

Lets end this debate and settle the matter once and for all with a real test ! If you want to remove tyre effect from the equation then shod both vehicles with same tyres.

2011 is the year when offroading heavyweights will WALK THE TALK !! ....FINALLY !!!!

Hi DKG,

I suggested FFRA, because I can loan them a 19 Spline Locker.

IFS is a dud, SFRA is a compromise.

Fitting the winch on the IFS will compromise the Front Suspension, reducing the precious Approach Angle, Ground Clearance, please look the the pics of the Thar Adventure.

Since you advocate the Thar so much, isn't it not a "Modern SWB Off-Roader"?

Since this is 2011....HAPPY NEW YEAR

Regards,

Arka

[DKG]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Since this is 2011....HAPPY NEW YEAR

Wish you the same and loads of fun this year !! How about that Himalayan roadtrip?

Arka you know at the end of it all its all about us having fun. I know you know that I love my CJ3B and wouldn't trade it for anything ever. I honestly like the Thar and feel its a great step forward. Its not important for us to declare one or the other as a dud. As long as vehicles allow us to have fun and in relative comfort and safety I am happy. The fun we all had at the Bangalore and Lonavla events is what this whole sport is all about. Its the people who make it all so special and we have a great bunch in the offroading world.

The Jeep may arrive in India and lets hope it comes in soon as I am a huge fan of the Wrangler (that's my idea of a modern SWB offroader and the Thar is getting there)

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl

One has to relearn their OTR driving skills with the Thar.

Definitely, I was at all seas when I first drove the Thar. It behaved more like Gypsy than Jeep.

Originally Posted by KMT

If I do buy one it will be bought grudgingly as I dont have any other choice.

Very apt statement, I would say the same.

Originally Posted by DKG

Its not as bad as you think KMT. For those who grew up on a diet of old Jeeps its a huge leap forward. No need to feel so compromised in choosing a Thar !

It is a huge leap only considering the on-road aspect, thanks to IFS and CDRe engine, still lacks HT and AC though. I don't see any leap in offroad performance. It might match older Jeeps, whether it will exceed, I not yet ready to cast that vote. The drivers will come to depend more on the massive torque than skill. They will rip apart terrains. Yes, I have seen what Scorpios have done to the terrains in the past with their CRDe engines.

Ok, what did I want from Thar? I wanted a Jeep that was as offroad capable as my CJ340, and onroad capable as my Grand Vitara. Wild dreams, some might say, but if Jimny could do that, why not Thar.

Now, what did Thar deliver? It delivered the onroad part, without the HT and AC, so it is a no go for me as of now. It may have delivered the offroad part, but with a distinct possibility of very costly water damage and CV joint breakage. Also, "NO ABC" technique doesn't work that well on Thar. For a CJ340 owner used to 5.38 ratio, it is a major disappointment.

Nobody is telling how the electronics or CRDe engine is protected against water fording. I generally hate water crossings, and avoid anything above 2ft. But you never know, we all know how water levels can raise without notice. With our ancient engines, we are pretty much sure about the risk and cost. But what is the story on Thar and water? I don't think flood insurance is the answer.

Coming to the IFS, I am not technical as most here. Still, combined with PS and the massive torque Thar can generate, the chances for over-straining the CV joints got to be pretty high. We have seen Scorpio CV joints breaking twigs in the Bangalore offroad circles. Does Thar have reinforced mechanicals that have multifold load factor to handle this immense strain? These are the questions that bother me.

Thar may be as capable or better than old school Jeeps, but is it resilient towards water and the strain generated by the combo of PS and massive torque?

[Ricky_63]

Originally Posted by .anshuman

Sterling Auto is not listed on the Thar website. The list of dealers selling Thar can be seen here.

They are listed at JMD Solitaire Plaza, Sikanderpur, M G Road, Gurgaon. I got the information from the M&M website. Unless the website is giving wrong information.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

How similar/ different are the MDI/ CRDE chassis, esp. hardpoints. Engine mountings points. For the MDI, are the front spring perch points welded or riveted?

Regards
Sutripta

BTW, did you study mechanics, or quantum mechanics?

Pretty much different, please have a look (side by side) and you will understand.

OT- Major study was on mechanics but I know a thing or two about Quantum mechanics!

Originally Posted by Samurai

Nobody is telling how the electronics or CRDe engine is protected against water fording. I generally hate water crossings, and avoid anything above 2ft. But you never know, we all know how water levels can raise without notice. With our ancient engines, we are pretty much sure about the risk and cost. But what is the story on Thar and water? I don't think flood insurance is the answer.

Samurai, you have driven and seen 521. You may have noticed, it only had a snorkel (temporary) built into it and nothing special was done for water wading. The snorkel is doing its duty on 521 for a few reasons other than water fording:-
a) NVH
b) Intake pressure depression
c) Power delivery
d) Smoke
e) Establishing Air filter / oil filter / oil service intervals
f) Oil analysis (Millipore values)

This is for our understanding only. I hope that pretty much answers your query on water fording for Thar.

Spike

[DKG]

Sharath I doubt Maruti will be able to offer the new Jimny with a diesel, hardtop, a/c and power steering for anything less than 10 lacs. Assuming that price point is correct how does that make it a better option for people wanting to offroad ?

The lighter Jimny will not be as stable on highways at high speeds