[ManMachine]

What will be the best set of tyres for MM550 with the stock rims. Are Tubed tyre with stock rim is good for off-road or Tubeless Alloys. Which is better ?

[jeepster]

Originally Posted by blueblooded

JEEPSTER ,one thing i missed is that the make of your Armada .
Moreover ,as far i remember all the old mm jeeps were 139 pcd ,including mine (mm international) .
Whats must be pcd of my MM 540?

you see due to the health department folks i really dont know the manufacturing date of the armada.

as they have lost the RC book.

from my guess its 1998~99 , from the first lot of the NGCS armada. (& manual borgwarner too)

my armada also has the 160 PCD similar to newer Mahindra, Tata & Force vehicles.

your 540 & 500di have 139.7 PCD.

Originally Posted by ManMachine

What will be the best set of tyres for MM550 with the stock rims. Are Tubed tyre with stock rim is good for off-road or Tubeless Alloys. Which is better ?

its really difficult to answer.

this depends on your personal choice, available money & use pattern.

i had a choice of big MT , AT tyres but they were costing tooooo much & they need alloys so i went for the these tyres as they were cheaper.

now a 31 inch tyre is costing approx 12K+ & with 20~25K 8J alloys total sum will be around 85K+.

so i will still vote for standard 550 tyres that is MRF sand grip , APOLLO bullets & JK sand cum highway all cost 6.5K to 7K due to low or no production.

or you can buy ATF sand/highway at 4K till you decide what you want.

rgds,
Nikhil

[svsantosh]

Jeep Gurus,

The Armada (& Grand) comes with a Horizontal Stabilizer bar (a Rod that connects the front left and right leaf base plate thru a series of bushes to the chassis).

1) What is the use & need of it?
2) What is the problem if one removes it?
3) Does it limit Articulation in any way?
4) There are 4 bushes (at least) used in this assy and if 1 or more is Kaput - it gives a thud noise on bad roads - so is this bar a load bearing part?

Any help is appreciated.

[jeepster]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

The Armada (& Grand) comes with a Horizontal Stabilizer bar (a Rod that connects the front left and right leaf base plate thru a series of bushes to the chassis).

1) What is the use & need of it?
2) What is the problem if one removes it?
3) Does it limit Articulation in any way?
4) There are 4 bushes (at least) used in this assy and if 1 or more is Kaput - it gives a thud noise on bad roads - so is this bar a load bearing part?

1. to minimize the body lean (for the highway use)
2. it will just increase the body lean (a jeeper will not feel any difference if removed)
3. yes (practically its their main function )
4. yes

Sway bar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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rgds,
Nikhil

Edit:

my armada still in same condition as it was last year.

so no update for my armada project.

Edit 2:

here are some pics of my sway bar, which explains why i removed it.

[svsantosh]

1) What is the front track of your jeep? Is it 58"? Mine is 57 or 58 i think and I dont think the rod fouls with the chassis, at least visually. Have not tried any articulation tests yet.

2) Now that you have it removed, how did you address the 1 inch width (lack of) in the shackle base plate?

[sirius1845]

Post deleted by the Team-BHP Support : Please do NOT post one-liners that add little or no informational value to the thread. We need your co-operation to maintain the overall quality of this forum.

Please read our rules before proceeding any further.

[ringoism]

Nikhil,

I think your Armada looks really fantastic. I'm a new BHPian, so following your buildup a little late... had read the earlier thread re: the auction, etc.

I'm up here in HP (Manali) and getting ready to buy a 4x4 Mahindra. Looked at several, one of which is a 99 Armada formerly owned by one of the power projects up here. Thought maybe we could swap info / experiences a little, maybe even via personal communication, since I'm hoping to own the same vehicle as yours soon.

I'm assuming you've researched things quite a lot, so wanted to ask a few questions:

1) Was your car equipped with the xdp4.9 or the xd3p? How can you tell the difference visually? The RC of this one says 2112cc, so I guess this one has the former, but was surprised the premium Armada didn't have the larger 2.5L. I saw threads discussing a possible powerplant upgrade in your case - did you ever do it?

2) Are your tires on the original 15" wheels, or are those 16's? What tires are they and what cost?

3) Do you know what your original differential ratios are? I was thinking with the smaller diameter tires originally equipped, that M&M might have used a numerically lower ratio, but not sure on that. I don't do hard core offroad - just the Ladakh / Spiti routes and local link roads, and snow, so don't need really low gears and more interested in mileage. Could probably easily use 3.73's and hit the 4L if it ever ran out of steam on a serious grade.

4) Are your front discs / calipers the same as what are used on later pickups / Bolero, etc? Our spare parts availability is pretty bad up here for less common vehicles like the Armada, unless they're same as what's used on popular models.

5) What average (mileage) are you seeing (assuming you've corrected odometer error for your oversize tires)?

6) Do you have the Bosch (Mico) or the Lucas FIP? I'm told the latter is unrebuildable, this one has it and seems to have problems. Advantages of either?

7) Is the Borg Warner transfer case clearly superior to the old standard (I hear the latter is bad re: NVH)?

8) What is PCD? (Googled it, but am assuming it's NOT Pussycat Dolls / Partido Conservador Demócrata, a political party in Nicaragua; Partnership for Child Development.... etc....) Guessing this has something to do with the wheel mounting "bolt circle" (in American lingo)?

Anyway, from my side I think it'd be great to keep in communication with you, since the number of LWB (long wheelbase) owners on the forum is relatively small.

By the way, I seriously considered naming our son Nikhil...

-Eric

[jeepster]

Originally Posted by ringoism

wanted to ask a few questions:

hi Eric,

here is my reply.

1)
my armada has XDP4.90 .
will post some pics for reference.
XD3P was introduces with Grand Armada with 5 speed GB & electric TC.
if you want to swap DXP4.90 with XD3P, its a simple bolt on job. (haven't done it my self)

2)
yes stock tyres are 215/75/15".
i have installed 7.50x16" on sumo 16" rims.
tyres 25K + rims 6K.

3)
my diffs are 43/8 i.e. 5.38 .
IMO you should use 4.88 with 5 speed GB.

4)
not sure , but IMO parts must be same., (i havent replaced them yet)

5)
after some head banging n all , according to the calculations i am getting FE around 9 KMPL.
the XD3P will give the same FE but POWER & TORQUE will be much more. (even with AC)

6)
FIP is mico.
yes according to my mechanic the lucas FIP are little unreliable.

7)
yes if you are planning to use your jeep on-road then mechanical Borg Warner is the best. (but with a 5 speed gb)

8)
the old jeeps have 139.7 PCD.
all new (NGCS) jeeps mainly post 1999 have 160 PCD. (even TATA, FORCE use 160 PCD)

glad to help fellow offroader.


rgds,
Nikhil
https://www.facebook.com/groups/196462963730852/

OT:
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Edit:

also consider a post 2000 Marshal.

it has same chasis , body.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...ml#post1564429

[Geo_Ipe]

Originally Posted by jeepster

only update is this rs70/- sticker job.

Quite like the work you've been doing, though I'm no off road junkie.

Just one question regarding the sticker works - What is the NMEP sticker (?paint job) doing on the jeep still? 'National Malaria Eradication Programme' is the last thing on the coolest-things-to-put-on-your-jeep list if yo ask me!

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by Geo_Ipe

Quite like the work you've been doing, though I'm no off road junkie.

Just one question regarding the sticker works - What is the NMEP sticker (?paint job) doing on the jeep still? 'National Malaria Eradication Programme' is the last thing on the coolest-things-to-put-on-your-jeep list if yo ask me!

Depending on how much his Jeep smokes, it might still qualify to be in the programme! Love the 'Maharashtra Polite' sticker, btw.

[ringoism]

Haha... indeed, I've often noticed less mosquitoes in areas with excessive air pollution. It might not be more hazardous to the health than airborne pesticides (which I regularly get sprayed in the face with these days when riding the two-wheeler amidst apple orchards). Choose your poison, I guess...

Nikhil, thanks for your helpful responses. Here's a few more for you:

1) I test drove a '97 Marshal today (2wd) whose RC indicates somewhere around 2500cc. Is it possible the xd3p was installed on anything before the Armada Grand??? This Marshal did seem to pull harder than the Armada I drove with the 2.1L - but might be my imagination.

2) This '97 also had a box-section frame (which I thought was a NGCS particular), but with the steering box mounted near the firewall. Would this be NGCS, or something else? If something else, then what did NGCS signify on the long-wheelbase models, besides the box-section frame (which this clearly has)?

3) Re: post 2000 Marshals, do you have any opinion on the DI vs. the Peugeots? I like the DI's lower-end torque advantage (here in the hills it's very helpful) and easier starting in cold weather (also important). But some say they're noisier. I've driven / heard some pretty noisy Peugeots and am not too sure the DI's I've driven / heard are universally worse - but what's your take on this? I'm trying not to irritate my tinnitus...

4) Did these DI Marshals have the manual Borg Warner t-cases?

5) I was concerned about the availability of affordable mud/snow-worthy tires for the 15" Armada wheels. Did you come across anything usable on the cheaper end in 15's, or did you end up going with the 16's for that reason? What brand did you finally go with?

6) One of the taxi drivers here tells me that (some?) Armadas had both front and rear folding seats, to where you could sort of make a bed out of the whole interior. Sounds interesting, and better than a tent when camping amidst bear populations! Have you seen / heard of this feature?

Lastly: I like the Marshals, though they might be a bit too common and on the base models the interiors are pretty spartan. I also kind of liked the lower roof / stance on the Armada, so that if/when we travel to Ladakh / Spiti / Wherever with stuff loaded on a roof rack, our COG (center of gravity) is a little lower and it doesn't rock-n-roll quite so much.

So what do you think? I do my own work (though spare time is not exactly unlimited). If I could get a kind of rough '99 Armada (xd4.9p) needing a bit of denting/painting & a battery, with probably some Lucas injection pump issues (rough and smoky at idle only, runs clean and smooth when revved) for Rs. 70k (refurb. Mico pump available @ 6,000) or a 2002 Marshal DI (upgraded with disc brakes and deluxe styled steel 16" (Scorpio?) wheels and headrest-type front seats) for Rs. 1.4lakh, what do you think might be the better deal? Those are my options at present. Oh, and also a soft-top 540 that looks good / original, hopefully for under 1.5lakh (I'd really want to fit a hardtop, though).

Not likely to be doing hard-core offroad - just a couple forest trails up here, nasty link roads (pretty much off-road), etc. Maybe an annual highway trip to Delhi, and another to Ladakh or wherever. Otherwise local use in winters and monsoon. We ride the bike otherwise.

Many Thanks,
Eric

[jeepster]

Originally Posted by Geo_Ipe

Just one question regarding the sticker works - What is the NMEP sticker (?paint job) doing on the jeep still? 'National Malaria Eradication Programme' is the last thing on the coolest-things-to-put-on-your-jeep list if yo ask me!

yes its a paint job one by "Govt. of Maharashtra Health Department"

kept it as not many know the meaning.

Originally Posted by vivekgk

Depending on how much his Jeep smokes, it might still qualify to be in the programme! Love the 'Maharashtra Polite' sticker, btw.

LOL correct.

Originally Posted by ringoism

Lastly: I like the Marshals, though they might be a bit too common and on the base models the interiors are pretty spartan. I also kind of liked the lower roof / stance on the Armada, so that if/when we travel to Ladakh / Spiti / Wherever with stuff loaded on a roof rack, our COG (center of gravity) is a little lower and it doesn't rock-n-roll quite so much.

So what do you think? I do my own work (though spare time is not exactly unlimited). If I could get a kind of rough '99 Armada (xd4.9p) needing a bit of denting/painting & a battery, with probably some Lucas injection pump issues (rough and smoky at idle only, runs clean and smooth when revved) for Rs. 70k (refurb. Mico pump available @ 6,000) or a 2002 Marshal DI (upgraded with disc brakes and deluxe styled steel 16" (Scorpio?) wheels and headrest-type front seats) for Rs. 1.4lakh, what do you think might be the better deal? Those are my options at present. Oh, and also a soft-top 540 that looks good / original, hopefully for under 1.5lakh (I'd really want to fit a hardtop, though).

1)
it can be a mistake by RTO.
but AFAIK no Marshal was on offer with XD3P.

or owner may have installed it himself & endorsed it on RC.

2)
yes those are pre ngcs box section chassis.

the difference between PRE NGCS box section & NGCS is

• bigger and thicker 115mm x 60mm 3.6mm thick
• IMO PRE NGCS is 100mm x 50mm box same as C channel chassis
• in NGCS steering box is in the front part
• in PRE NGCS steering box is near firewall
• wider axles 57"F/53"R in NGC
• narrow axles in PRE NGCS
• the NGCS is much better
  & common across bolero platform with slight changes.

3)
DI for FE & for ease of heater less start.

and for your trips DI is much better with 5 speed GB n BW TC.

but getting this combo is hard.

note: sit in a bolero close all windows the noise is less like that & we can use sound damping to minimize it in Marshal DI.


4)
NO.


5)
the options for 15" are in the ranges of 14,000/- per tyre. (most MT tyres)

dont know about SNOW tyres.

the 16" sand tyres are from ATF tyres no. 7129.

cost is 5,500/- including tax and shipping charges.


6)
they can be custom made for every vehicle.

my seats are not fold able type.

you can change the roof of the marshal while its in the body repairs.

& Armada/Bolero dash can be fitted in it as well.

will PM you for the cost details.

rgds,
Nikhil

come PRE NGCS box chassis pics.

MM Commander 650 DI

MM Marshal DI

[jeepster]

here are some pic's of XD3P.

XDP 4.90 .

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/suvs-m...tml#post519380

XDP4.90 62bhp/12.3kgm (Gear driven cam , wet liner type 2112cc)

XD3P 73bhp/15.5kgm (Chain driven cam , dry liner type 2498cc)

XD3P has ribs on the Cylinder Head.

see this link for more info.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...tml#post922770

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by jeepster;2805573

XDP4.90[/B

62bhp/12.3kgm (Gear driven cam , wet liner type 2112cc)

XD3P 73bhp/15.5kgm (Chain driven cam , dry liner type 2498cc)

XD3P has ribs on the Cylinder Head.

see this link for more info.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...tml#post922770

Wow - a wealth of information. Many thanks, Nikhil. Finally I've been able to read the 2.1 vs. 2.5 comparison in the thread you referenced. I'd searched fruitlessly before, even challenged the mod when my new thread was suppressed :-) but still couldn't find it till you helped.

Re: tires, the ATF 7507 style (shown bottom right of ATF Farm King Tyres) is pretty much what is favored here for snow use, and runs about the same price you indicate, locally, but for the 7.00-16 (not 7.50). They do similar retreading up here, too. I don't think there's much out there that's cheap for 15's - that was my concern - Only retreads in not very aggressive patterns. The Armada in question has Bridgestone Duelers of orig. size with about 1/2 tread remaining. Good tires, but not best for snow / GC, require more steering effort (have to consider my wife here - though she used to drive an early 4x4 Commander) and pretty expensive to replace.

I'd test driven an Army 550XD with the 2.5 in Pathankot a couple years back and felt it would be plenty powerful for normal uses. I like the idea of the 2.1's wet-liner servicability (I hear you can install new liners on the roadside if need be - one of the reasons Peugeots were so popular in Africa) and fail-safe gear-driven cam, but in heavier LWB hardtops it's a pretty anemic performer in these hills and not likely to achieve more than 8kpl, either. Actually got thinking of a 540 again, but hear they're awfully loose / rattley on account of the quite flexible chassis, and not sure I'll be able to find a hardtop for one in the area either, which is pretty well essential for our purposes / climate. Would probably do well to hold out and spend the extra for the DI Marshal, which would probably give me nearly the same economy as the 540 / xd4.9p with a lot more passenger/luggage space and more comfort / safe-handling on-highway (maybe). Could upgrade to 5-speed or even the turbo setup later if desired, or at least install the (numerically) lower gears for better economy on-road, since ample torque is available to get it moving off the line. Has the FFRA and front discs, too.

Have there been any soundproofing discussions in this forum?

The DI Marshal I have in mind to buy is presently doing daily tourist duty to Rohtang Pass (despite lacking a taxi registration) and being that they're raking in money with it in-season, the owner doesn't want to sell it till after June. Let's see if that works out. Might give the Armada owner a lowball offer in the meanwhile (he got it at auction from the company he works for, most likely at close to scrap value, guessing 30-40k or so - so he might be happy with 55-60k???).

-ERic

PS: anyone know whether the DI range has wet liners? Machine shops up here are best avoided entirely.

[ringoism]

(Moderator: this discussion might actually be better suited to some other thread, or a new one - I was just responding since it had come up from another member in light of Nikhil's Armada-building process).

Originally Posted by ManMachine

What will be the best set of tyres for MM550 with the stock rims. Are Tubed tyre with stock rim is good for off-road or Tubeless Alloys. Which is better ?

Re: the alloy vs. steel part of the question, I'd go with steel over alloy any day. Aluminum-based alloys lack the ductility of steel, meaning that beyond a point, they very often crack/break rather than bend. This normally happens in the bead area when someone gets up against a rock or takes a pothole too hard, etc. With really oversized, high-profile tires this might not be as much of an issue since rims are better protected, but unless you're primarily a boulevard cruiser and/or looks are your top priority, IMO steel is always best in the worst of conditions - and it's a lot cheaper, as well. Bend a steel wheel and you can either straighten it or replace it for very little cash. Break an alloy wheel, it's a little tougher. You MIGHT find someone to TIG weld / re-form it - but I'm not very sure about that. If not, you're looking at a lot of money to replace it - and you might have trouble finding an exact match in the aftermarket, too, if it's been some years since your purchase.

Re: tubes vs. tubeless: I remember traveling through Kargil some years back in a Qualis with a puncture needing repair, and going to a local tirewallah there. He opened the tire and a look of confusion crossed his face. "Tube kaha hai?" "These are tubeless tires", we explained. His perplexed look did not diminish with this information. "But there's no tube" he said. Right. Qualis is not exactly the vehicle of choice for the Leh-Padum run, and I suppose he had just never seen such a thing before.

There seems to be this perception among many in India that tubeless tires are somehow less suited to hard use, but this is a complete misconception. I doubt if anyone is using tubes in hard-core 4-wheeling abroad. I did quite a bit of hands-on tire work in the U.S. myself, and can say that even the big 22.5" truck tires (used here on Volvo buses and other imported heavy trucks), and 32" tractor (i.e., JCB backhoes, etc) tires are exclusively tubeless designs. The only time we would put tubes in is when there was such bad structural damage (i.e., longer cuts) that could not be internally patched to the point of being reliably air-tight, or when there was a puncture in the "shoulder" area of a radial tire, where the high degree of flexing makes such patches unsuitable (and my boss didn't believe in "plug" patches, which could also work in such areas). We also used tubes in rear tractor tires when we wanted to pump in a liquid solution to increase the weight / traction. Otherwise, there is really no point, just an unnecessary added cost. Tubeless tires, assuming you're okay with plug-patches, make dealing with punctures a lot easier on or off road in remote areas, where with a simple, cheap kit, you can do the repair yourself right on the spot.

So if you can get some steel rims off a newer vehicle (Scorpio?) that can accommodate tubeless tires, I think that's best for hard use if basic functionality / serviceability is your top priority.

Regards,
Eric