is capacitor worth an investement

nitrous · 6th February 2006, 12:39

OT: Generalneo, is ur HU turbo-charged???

Rehaan · 6th February 2006, 13:48

Hey Navin and Sam,

Thanks for the clarification.
I was just wondering if audio caps were just regular electrical caps with the audio branding yknow.
Kinda like, am i paying Rs100 for bisleri in an evian bottle ?

cya
R

Sam Kapasi · 6th February 2006, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rehaan

Hey Navin and Sam,

Thanks for the clarification.
I was just wondering if audio caps were just regular electrical caps with the audio branding yknow.
Kinda like, am i paying Rs100 for bisleri in an evian bottle ?

cya
R

No, your not paying for the branding. You would not be able to buy for example a 1 farad capacitor in the market.
The max you might get is 22000 mfd.

navin · 6th February 2006, 15:02

Like Sam says. 22,000mfd/450V is about as big as you can expect to get with regularity (450V is kinda large, for a car 50V or 63V is adequate).

A 1F or 0.5F stiffening cap is built for only one purpose. Sam had about 4 in the now defunct eyeballer. I assume that the new eyeballer 2 (swift) might be even even more over the top.

Vivekphadnis · 7th February 2006, 15:10

And if you go to any ordinary electronics parts store and ask for 1F caps, they will laugh at you. Partly because most of the shopkeepers have no idea about such stuff.

Sam, how is the Swift project coming along? And what happened to the Santro?

Sam Kapasi · 7th February 2006, 16:54

Santro? WHat Santro?
The swift project has taken a back seat for 2 weeks. I'm focussing on the nationwide JBL multimedia launch.

Vivekphadnis · 7th February 2006, 17:02

I am talking about the black Santro JBL had for the vaahan yatra in bangalore.

Sam Kapasi · 7th February 2006, 18:31

Oh that! lol
I'm getting old. Yeah, no changes on that one yet. It's rocking.

madhukesh · 7th February 2006, 19:09

hey guys i have a jbl cs 300.1 amp and jbl gto1200b sub
do u think i shoud put a cap????

navin · 9th February 2006, 12:33

madhukesh, are you facing any problems. if it ain't broken dont fix it.

nitrous · 21st February 2006, 03:18

I've got a Pio 305F powered by a sony 502, and a 305C powered by a pio 6000F. Pio 6990 rear 6x9s are also powered by the 6000F. Do i need a cap??

buzzin_hornets · 21st February 2006, 07:03

can some1 tell me if i require a capacitor..
Pioneer P1-Y Head Unit
(1)Prosound 800w amp for my JBL comps + AudioBahn Ovals
(2)Prosound 800w amp for my AudioBahn Special Edition Sub
Twister 300w amp for my Twister Sub

Do u guys recommend a capacitor if so how many farads etc.. thnx..

~cheers
-ASH

navin · 21st February 2006, 10:08

Geez. Guys. If it aint broken dont fix it. Just becuase you got a solution dont go looking for a problem.

Let me set some thumb rules here. JB/Gun/Sam etc will add ot it I'm sure.

Caps are usually used where bass transients cause the power supply of the amp to pant. In a car the car battery is part of the power supply of the amp.

Now why does an amp pant?
We all know P=VI and V=RI.
a) Too low an R and with V being constant I has to go up.
b) When I goes up and V is constant P goes up too.

Most amps are voltage amps where the voltage is amplified and controlled. So a 100W amp is really a really putting 20V at 4 ohms. at 2 ohms it still puts 20V but really is putting out 200W (current goes up from 5A to 10A).

Now the power supply cannot keep up indefinietely with this increased current draw and starts running out of steam much like a long distance runner and hence the panting analogy.

So what does the capacitor do to solve this.
Lets look at another equation.
Q = C V. where Q is the energy stored in a cap. C is it's capacitance and V is the voltage.

When you add a cap to a power supply it stores energy and when the power supply runs out of steam it releases this energy.

Q: So all amps should benefit from this capacitor?
A: Not nesscarily.

An amp's output devices have a limit to the ammout of current they can safely dissipate. So after a while if the current drawn exceeds the ammount of current an amp can dissipate pop goes the output device or a safety circuit (if it exists).

Now adding a capacitor to a amp can help or not or on a very rare occasion can even damage the amp (if the amp's design stipulates that it's power supply is being used to regulate the output stage).

What's all this gotta do with Bass? A-ha.

Bass requires more energy than middle and upper frequencies. Traditional Music has an energy spectrum where about 50% of it's energy is below 300Hz and the other 50% above it. In fact less than 8-10% of musical energy is above 5000 Hz. So it usually bass notes that exhaust the amp (and/or it's power supply).

Lesson: If the bass peaks are clean let the amps be.

You guys seem to have found a hammer and are now everything looks like a nail!

P.S. This is the abridged version. Longer explantions are found on audio forums.

buzzin_hornets · 21st February 2006, 11:22

nice explanation navin! thnx 4 that.. but im not sure yet whether i should go in for a capacitor or not..they're pretty expensive..earthquake the basic model costs arnd 4.5-5k

~cheers
-Ash

navin · 21st February 2006, 12:04

Listen to your music. it'll tell you if you need a cap or not.

6th February 2006, 12:39	#16
nitrous Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2004 Location: UAE/Lon/Madras Posts: 6,965 Thanked: 325 Times View My Garage	OT: Generalneo, is ur HU turbo-charged???
	() Thanks

6th February 2006, 13:48	#17
Rehaan Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 24,042 Thanked: 34,074 Times	Hey Navin and Sam, Thanks for the clarification. I was just wondering if audio caps were just regular electrical caps with the audio branding yknow. Kinda like, am i paying Rs100 for bisleri in an evian bottle ? cya R
	() Thanks

6th February 2006, 15:02	#19
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,187 Thanked: 9,277 Times	Like Sam says. 22,000mfd/450V is about as big as you can expect to get with regularity (450V is kinda large, for a car 50V or 63V is adequate). A 1F or 0.5F stiffening cap is built for only one purpose. Sam had about 4 in the now defunct eyeballer. I assume that the new eyeballer 2 (swift) might be even even more over the top.
	() Thanks

7th February 2006, 15:10	#20
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	And if you go to any ordinary electronics parts store and ask for 1F caps, they will laugh at you. Partly because most of the shopkeepers have no idea about such stuff. Sam, how is the Swift project coming along? And what happened to the Santro?
	() Thanks

7th February 2006, 16:54	#21
Sam Kapasi Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mumbai (but wat Posts: 6,997 Thanked: 2,378 Times View My Garage	Santro? WHat Santro? The swift project has taken a back seat for 2 weeks. I'm focussing on the nationwide JBL multimedia launch.
	() Thanks

7th February 2006, 17:02	#22
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	I am talking about the black Santro JBL had for the vaahan yatra in bangalore.
	() Thanks

7th February 2006, 18:31	#23
Sam Kapasi Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mumbai (but wat Posts: 6,997 Thanked: 2,378 Times View My Garage	Oh that! lol I'm getting old. Yeah, no changes on that one yet. It's rocking.
	() Thanks

7th February 2006, 19:09	#24
madhukesh Newbie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: bangalore Posts: 3 Thanked: 0 Times	hey guys i have a jbl cs 300.1 amp and jbl gto1200b sub do u think i shoud put a cap????
	() Thanks

9th February 2006, 12:33	#25
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,187 Thanked: 9,277 Times	madhukesh, are you facing any problems. if it ain't broken dont fix it.
	() Thanks

21st February 2006, 03:18	#26
nitrous Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2004 Location: UAE/Lon/Madras Posts: 6,965 Thanked: 325 Times View My Garage	I've got a Pio 305F powered by a sony 502, and a 305C powered by a pio 6000F. Pio 6990 rear 6x9s are also powered by the 6000F. Do i need a cap??
	() Thanks

21st February 2006, 07:03	#27
buzzin_hornets BHPian Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Mumbai Posts: 236 Thanked: Once View My Garage	can some1 tell me if i require a capacitor.. Pioneer P1-Y Head Unit (1)Prosound 800w amp for my JBL comps + AudioBahn Ovals (2)Prosound 800w amp for my AudioBahn Special Edition Sub Twister 300w amp for my Twister Sub Do u guys recommend a capacitor if so how many farads etc.. thnx.. ~cheers -ASH
	() Thanks

21st February 2006, 10:08	#28
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,187 Thanked: 9,277 Times	Geez. Guys. If it aint broken dont fix it. Just becuase you got a solution dont go looking for a problem. Let me set some thumb rules here. JB/Gun/Sam etc will add ot it I'm sure. Caps are usually used where bass transients cause the power supply of the amp to pant. In a car the car battery is part of the power supply of the amp. Now why does an amp pant? We all know P=VI and V=RI. a) Too low an R and with V being constant I has to go up. b) When I goes up and V is constant P goes up too. Most amps are voltage amps where the voltage is amplified and controlled. So a 100W amp is really a really putting 20V at 4 ohms. at 2 ohms it still puts 20V but really is putting out 200W (current goes up from 5A to 10A). Now the power supply cannot keep up indefinietely with this increased current draw and starts running out of steam much like a long distance runner and hence the panting analogy. So what does the capacitor do to solve this. Lets look at another equation. Q = C V. where Q is the energy stored in a cap. C is it's capacitance and V is the voltage. When you add a cap to a power supply it stores energy and when the power supply runs out of steam it releases this energy. Q: So all amps should benefit from this capacitor? A: Not nesscarily. An amp's output devices have a limit to the ammout of current they can safely dissipate. So after a while if the current drawn exceeds the ammount of current an amp can dissipate pop goes the output device or a safety circuit (if it exists). Now adding a capacitor to a amp can help or not or on a very rare occasion can even damage the amp (if the amp's design stipulates that it's power supply is being used to regulate the output stage). What's all this gotta do with Bass? A-ha. Bass requires more energy than middle and upper frequencies. Traditional Music has an energy spectrum where about 50% of it's energy is below 300Hz and the other 50% above it. In fact less than 8-10% of musical energy is above 5000 Hz. So it usually bass notes that exhaust the amp (and/or it's power supply). Lesson: If the bass peaks are clean let the amps be. You guys seem to have found a hammer and are now everything looks like a nail! P.S. This is the abridged version. Longer explantions are found on audio forums. Last edited by navin : 21st February 2006 at 10:09.
	() Thanks

21st February 2006, 11:22	#29
buzzin_hornets BHPian Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Mumbai Posts: 236 Thanked: Once View My Garage	nice explanation navin! thnx 4 that.. but im not sure yet whether i should go in for a capacitor or not..they're pretty expensive..earthquake the basic model costs arnd 4.5-5k ~cheers -Ash
	() Thanks

21st February 2006, 12:04	#30
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,187 Thanked: 9,277 Times	Listen to your music. it'll tell you if you need a cap or not.
	() Thanks