How come Pioneer is still using 16 bit DACs on HU's below 7 series

raul · 5th May 2006, 03:32

Hi Guys,

It seems all Pioneer models below the 7 series use 16 bit dacs. http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...etailComponent and above like 78 series use 24 bit burr-brown. Can somebody in the know shed more light on this and generally about DACs. This is a bit surprising because even lower end JVCs have 24 bit dacs. http://www.jvcmobile.co.uk/prod_deta...8&sub_cat_id=1 don't know about Kenwood, Blaupunkt or Alpine(presumably good) but I hope somebody knowledgeable here, Navin hint hint, can tell us more. Is it a linear thing, as in will a 24 bit one always sound better than a 16 bit one. In which case is a cheapo HU like JVC 405g(24bit) at 3.8k better than 6.5k+ Pioneer 4850, 5850, 6850 (16bit)?

gunbir · 5th May 2006, 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by raul

Hi Guys,

It seems all Pioneer models below the 7 series use 16 bit dacs. http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...etailComponent and above like 78 series use 24 bit burr-brown. Can somebody in the know shed more light on this and generally about DACs. This is a bit surprising because even lower end JVCs have 24 bit dacs. http://www.jvcmobile.co.uk/prod_deta...8&sub_cat_id=1 don't know about Kenwood, Blaupunkt or Alpine(presumably good) but I hope somebody knowledgeable here, Navin hint hint, can tell us more. Is it a linear thing, as in will a 24 bit one always sound better than a 16 bit one. In which case is a cheapo HU like JVC 405g(24bit) at 3.8k better than 6.5k+ Pioneer 4850, 5850, 6850 (16bit)?

Raul.. First off, great question. I'm impressed.

While SuperNavinji will come back with a super-detailed answer, here is the simple answer...

There are many 24bit chips. Some low end, some high end. Some will output close to the rated output, while some will only put out close to 16bit. Now it depends WHICH two chips you're comparing. You may be comparing a good 16Bit to an average 24Bit. Even if the JVC uses the exact chip as the Pioneer, there are many other factors like other components, design and implementation that effect the sound of the HU.

In my experience the Pioneer definitely has better sound than the JVC. In fact, I recently used a JVC DVD unit and wasnt impressed with the build quality of the unit either.

The only way is to audition both the units with the exact same system in the same car. You will be able to hear which is better.

s0uljah · 5th May 2006, 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunbir

The only way is to audition both the units with the exact same system in the same car. You will be able to hear which is better.

Thats why its awesome to have folks like yourself, Navin, Sam, JB, B&T and others I might have left out who have had hands on practical encounters

Autophile · 5th May 2006, 13:13

No of bits does not matter..its the quality of DAC chip which matters. There are single bit DAC's whopping Multi Bit DAC's in performance and sound quality.

navin · 5th May 2006, 13:24

Sorry I was gone. I did some stupid experiment and crashed my ipod (55.68GB of music had to be restored). BTW I have learnt to keep my posts simple. My earlier posts were unreadable by many. So this is as simple as I can make it.

the DAC is only a small part of the chain and dont matter much.

1. the CD platter must be stable (no jitter)
2. the lens must read accurately (some very modern CD players have firmware upgrades to improve this or compensate for the inaccuracies)
3. the anti-aliasing filters must operate correctly
etc...

Even if the 2 DAC chips are the same the power supply should be just as tightly regulated and so on and so forth.

before you compare all this I would compare build quality in most cases this is a better indicator as to which HU will sound better.

In fact a better way to build a CD player would be to have a Solid State or Hard Disk dump. I have heard a HD disk and a CD transport being playedback via the same DAC, Amp and speakers and the Hard disk won. I was able to tell which was which in ABX 7/10 times. The dealer was able to tell 8/10 after all he sells the stuff and knows what to listen for.

low_bass_makker · 5th May 2006, 13:40

I agree with naveen with drive part. More stable, robust the pick up mechanisem is less the error in picking up the data from the cd. Thats why the premiun home cd players are having better drives than a simple cd player.

kb100 · 5th May 2006, 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunbir

While SuperNavinji will come back with a super-detailed answer, here is the simple answer...

HA HA... GUNMAN - YOU ARE HEREBY RE-CHRISTENED TO SUPERGURU from STEP-Guru

... Please dont go jumping off cliffs now!!!

rsjaurr · 5th May 2006, 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autophile

No of bits does not matter..its the quality of DAC chip which matters. There are single bit DAC's whopping Multi Bit DAC's in performance and sound quality.

And alpine HU r the best example of this.Raul's [r u from Real Madrid FC!!!] query is similar to one where few days someone asked about voltage of preamp on HU.

Rtech · 5th May 2006, 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by navin

1. the CD platter must be stable (no jitter)
2. the lens must read accurately (some very modern CD players have firmware upgrades to improve this or compensate for the inaccuracies)
3. the anti-aliasing filters must operate correctly
etc...

wow. i never knew the build quality of the CD tray would have an effect on sound quality! I think i need to visit this section a bit more now.

navin · 5th May 2006, 15:32

I think I said the CD platter not tray but i guess when the tray is well built the platter will be too.

5th May 2006, 03:32	#1
raul BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pune Posts: 920 Thanked: 372 Times	How come Pioneer is still using 16 bit DACs on HU's below 7 series Hi Guys, It seems all Pioneer models below the 7 series use 16 bit dacs. http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...etailComponent and above like 78 series use 24 bit burr-brown. Can somebody in the know shed more light on this and generally about DACs. This is a bit surprising because even lower end JVCs have 24 bit dacs. http://www.jvcmobile.co.uk/prod_deta...8&sub_cat_id=1 don't know about Kenwood, Blaupunkt or Alpine(presumably good) but I hope somebody knowledgeable here, Navin hint hint, can tell us more. Is it a linear thing, as in will a 24 bit one always sound better than a 16 bit one. In which case is a cheapo HU like JVC 405g(24bit) at 3.8k better than 6.5k+ Pioneer 4850, 5850, 6850 (16bit)? Last edited by raul : 5th May 2006 at 03:36.
	() Thanks

5th May 2006, 13:13	#4
Autophile BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 931 Thanked: 4 Times	No of bits does not matter..its the quality of DAC chip which matters. There are single bit DAC's whopping Multi Bit DAC's in performance and sound quality. Last edited by Autophile : 5th May 2006 at 13:23.
	() Thanks

5th May 2006, 13:24	#5
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,196 Thanked: 9,292 Times	Sorry I was gone. I did some stupid experiment and crashed my ipod (55.68GB of music had to be restored). BTW I have learnt to keep my posts simple. My earlier posts were unreadable by many. So this is as simple as I can make it. the DAC is only a small part of the chain and dont matter much. 1. the CD platter must be stable (no jitter) 2. the lens must read accurately (some very modern CD players have firmware upgrades to improve this or compensate for the inaccuracies) 3. the anti-aliasing filters must operate correctly etc... Even if the 2 DAC chips are the same the power supply should be just as tightly regulated and so on and so forth. before you compare all this I would compare build quality in most cases this is a better indicator as to which HU will sound better. In fact a better way to build a CD player would be to have a Solid State or Hard Disk dump. I have heard a HD disk and a CD transport being playedback via the same DAC, Amp and speakers and the Hard disk won. I was able to tell which was which in ABX 7/10 times. The dealer was able to tell 8/10 after all he sells the stuff and knows what to listen for.
	() Thanks

5th May 2006, 13:40	#6
low_bass_makker Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Faridabad Posts: 6,815 Thanked: 305 Times View My Garage	I agree with naveen with drive part. More stable, robust the pick up mechanisem is less the error in picking up the data from the cd. Thats why the premiun home cd players are having better drives than a simple cd player.
	() Thanks

5th May 2006, 15:32	#10
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,196 Thanked: 9,292 Times	I think I said the CD platter not tray but i guess when the tray is well built the platter will be too.
	() Thanks