[dharams]

hi i am looking for a music system for my maruti 800. i have got a lot of offers for different brands but i am not able to make a decision.

i like good clear sound and also should be quite loud. even at high volume the sound should not have distortion and remain clear.


my budget is between 1- 1.5 lakhs but i know that if i spend more doesnt mean that i will get better sound and that i have to sensibly purchse the parts. so i want to keep budget of only 1 lakhs

for player i am using pioneer 5750 mp3 from my zen and i am very happy with its sound and i has 3 outputs also. i want to put good component speakers and 2 12 inch woofers in the back with mono amplifier and another 4 chanel for the speakers.



i vistied some shops in milan sub way and they have reccomended to me different brand like kicker, illusions, soundstreams, mtx , and focus and morel for very good speakers quality. also i think that speakers and woofer makes most difference in quality not as much as amplifier so i am looking for descent amplifier. i am having pioneer 1024 amplifier that i plan to use for speakers. please recomend good mono amplifer for woofers.

[kb100]

HOLY MOTHER OF I.C.E.!!..
THATS A helluva stuff you wanna stuff into a pooah ol M800!!...

SPEEDZAK... MOVE OVER... WE HAVE A NEW WINNERRrrr.... **APPLAUSE***
1.5 Lacs & TWo 12" in the rear of an 800!

WOW!!

B&T 'O B&T... Where Art Thou????

[amit_sound]

JBL worked for me... For Maruti 800, u could get two JBL 12" GT4-12 OR two JBL CS1200T bass tubes, with JBL301.1 mono amp, a 4 channel amp for front and rear speakers and very good 8 guage wiring.
But i guess it would be a little difficult to fit in the two Bass tubes inside 800, unless you are completely willing to sacrifice your luggage space.

Battery will have to be replaced cause the 800 battery will not be sufficient to drive the system and you would be required to invest in capacitors.

Get it done from a very good installer because installation can make a lot of difference the way system sounds.

Due to the amount of bass produced in such a configuration would be too much for a 800 to handle, spend around 10k for damping.

Still investing such a heavy system in a 800.... sounds strange dude!!!!!

The cost of the system would be more than the cost of the car!!!

Anyways, best of luck

[mail4ajo]

I guess you will have to convert the M800 into a sedan to carry all that stuff.

Only the experts will be able to help you. Gunbir, Navin, Sam, speedzak, you have them all. PM them, they were very helpful in my modest ICE decision

[Tool]

bro... thats a lot of money...
as for a config... i would recommend the following.. with this kind of cash.. dont waste it on kicker.. mtx, pio..soundstram ETC... Even with Focal and Morel.. only the really high end speakers are worth talking about...
for components.. that you get with warranty and support and stuff go with hertz bro...here are my choices..

for 3 way sound... this price is per pair..
for 3 way.. hertz HSK 163.. 3 way with Dome Tweeter.. and 3W.30 Crossover..= approx 30 ,000 ..

for 2 way sound....this price is per pair..
hertz 2 way components with 2W.20 crossovers are HSK165.. approx 14,000

subwoofers .. Image Dynamics IDQ 12's .. TRUST ME... just got them put into my car... Pm me if you wanna meet in bombay and check them out.. but according to me.. these guys are unbeatable...so.. 2 subs.. 12 inch each.... that will be 12,500 rs per sub... so thats about 25,000 for the 2 of them.. the illusin audio carbon series also is good.. but at 25,000 for 1 subwoofer .. is too expensive according to me.. and the power handling of the illusin is the same as the IDQ.. infact is less.. i am running 2 of the IDQ 12's in my car and giving them a steady 750 watts each.. no problem at all.. also the illusin are 4 ohms .. so getting 2 of them to work of a Monoblock that is 2 ohms stable will be a issue... so i suggest the IDQ 12 V.2 subs.. at 12,800 odd each..


and as for a monoblock.. the choices are endless. on thsi bit i will it up to the gurus to fill in the gaps... but i would recommend Tru tech.. Alpine.. the OLD monoblocks.. like the MRD-M1001...but the monoblocks either tru or alpine the old ones like i said.. should be around 55,000
and please make sure you keep a massive budget for Audison Wiries and also invest in extensive amounts of Dynamat Extreme or Wurth sound and body Dampning...
hope this helped...

[200mph]

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/car-en...hat-price.html dude check out this thread . will be of good help for you. check out stuff from infinity also !

[Sam Kapasi]

What kind of music do you listen to Dharams?

[rsjaurr]

this guys is in same leauge as KB100000,Tool and LBM r.

No offence meant but gurus dont u think spending 1.5lac for ICE in maruti800 is total waste as this car is just not good enough to handle that kind of set-up.As Gunbir has written few days back,its door panels r just few mm think meatl sheet which can vibrate even with 6.25 mm spkears.

And this guy wants to put in 2 subw as well.

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by kb100

HOLY MOTHER OF I.C.E.!!..
THATS A helluva stuff you wanna stuff into a pooah ol M800!!...

SPEEDZAK... MOVE OVER... WE HAVE A NEW WINNERRrrr.... **APPLAUSE***
1.5 Lacs & TWo 12" in the rear of an 800!

WOW!!

B&T 'O B&T... Where Art Thou????

Right here sir, like earlier explained, I designated a few days this week for work too! (I sure am getting better and better )

Lol, that sure is a lot of equipment for a poor ol' 800. I hope people don't start forcing the poor guy to change the car first! BUT, if you think that takes the cake, gimme some time and I'll post some pics of a guy who has a full Illusion Audio Carbon Series setup in a .....brace yourself.... a 1976 Premier Padmini!!! Complete with fiberglass speaker pods and soundproofing. The two pairs of speakers in the car are worth Rs. 51000/- and the sub is a whopping 15" operating infinite baffle behind the rear seats, costing Rs. 45000/-. The setup is driven off an older top-of-the-line Alpine HU feeding the signal to German Magnat amps and full Stinger cabling. The real dampener however was that his car drowned in the rains last year, and the only equipment that emerged completely unharmed from the dowpour was the Illusion gear since they are practically waterproof.

Originally Posted by Tool

and the power handling of the illusin is the same as the IDQ.. infact is less.. i am running 2 of the IDQ 12's in my car and giving them a steady 750 watts each.. no problem at all.. also the illusin are 4 ohms .. so getting 2 of them to work of a Monoblock that is 2 ohms stable will be a issue... so i suggest the IDQ 12 V.2 subs.. at 12,800 odd each

Tool Sir, no offence meant. I completely understand and remember that you are an audio engineer, however I must point out some small anomalies. In no way am I trying to say that Illusion is better than ID or vice versa, dharams must listen to both and more and decide.

Illusion subs are 4 ohm subs... True. So put a pair in parallel and you have 2 ohms. There are a zillion 2-ohm stable monoblocks, far more than 4-ohm monoblocks and 1-ohm stable ones, out there that can drive this load. I don't see any issue. I suppose that you must be using the D2s in 4 ohm mode too, right? Otherwise, your resultant load is either 0.5ohm or 4 ohms, not very worthy of your Class D monoblock.

Power handling is a bit lower on the Illusions, the sensitivity is far more on the other hand, 6 whopping dBs to be precise. With the same amount of input power, with all other performance parameters constant, the Illusions will be louder. Although this isn't a debate about how many dBs in SPL which sub will clock, the point is that this difference translates into lesser amplification cost, hence a lesser strain on your charging system, and lesser spend on the cabling. To sum it up, a 6 dB sensitivity difference means that one Illusion Nd12 with X Wrms of input power would sound as loud as two IDQ D2s fed with 2X Wrms of input power.

Illusions are far far more expensive to build in terms of the material costs involved. Everything that goes into Illusion Audio drivers is more than twice the cost of materials used in the IDQs. Also, they are more complex to assemble. Illusion uses a Neodymium magnet, a carbon fiber cone, a die-cast basket, edge-wound voice-coil, waterproof glues for all the glued parts, a waterproof conex spider, gold plated screw terminals etc. So they have to be expensive. This does not imply in any way that IDQ subs are good or bad compared to the Illusion. I'm just stating some facts, with a very objective comparison. If you say the IDQ sounds better, that is very welcome and that is certainly not the core of my argument. Opinions do differ.

Dharams, since you do mention that you are considering getting Illusions among other options, do listen to everything that you are considering. If you want to listen to some Illusion gear, I am sure that the dealer in concern can organize a demo.

[gunbir]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Power handling is a bit lower on the Illusions, the sensitivity is far more on the other hand, 6 whopping dBs to be precise. With the same amount of input power, with all other performance parameters constant, the Illusions will be louder. Although this isn't a debate about how many dBs in SPL which sub will clock, the point is that this difference translates into lesser amplification cost, hence a lesser strain on your charging system, and lesser spend on the cabling. To sum it up, a 6 dB sensitivity difference means that one Illusion Nd12 with X Wrms of input power would sound as loud as two IDQ D2s fed with 2X Wrms of input power.

Illusions are far far more expensive to build in terms of the material costs involved. Everything that goes into Illusion Audio drivers is more than twice the cost of materials used in the IDQs. Also, they are more complex to assemble. Illusion uses a Neodymium magnet, a carbon fiber cone, a die-cast basket, edge-wound voice-coil, waterproof glues for all the glued parts, a waterproof conex spider, gold plated screw terminals etc. So they have to be expensive. This does not imply in any way that IDQ subs are good or bad compared to the Illusion. I'm just stating some facts, with a very objective comparison. If you say the IDQ sounds better, that is very welcome and that is certainly not the core of my argument. Opinions do differ.

Ooooh... yummy... and here I was getting bored this lazy Saturday afternoon. B&T, Im no engineer (let alone an audio one) but I know you were wrong about a few things.

1. A 6dB increase does not mean double the loudness. But in fact four times as loud. Remember, loudness doubles (as humans percieve it) EVERY 3dB.

2. By that standard an Rs 8K Hertz ES300D (97dB sensitive) would be even better than the Illusion. But as you and I both know, thats not the case. Sensitivity is not the measure of subwoofer performance. Specially when you're talking about a Rs25K sub. Anybody who can afford to put 50K into subs can put in adequate money into a good mono amp. So while higher sensitivity makes sense for low-budget applications (where you gotta run a sub of say 2 bridges channels of a Sony 504), with the cost of watt-per-rupee coming down everyday, it does not really make sense (to me) in high value systems as there is a decent budget for amplification.

3. One 96dB sensitivity 12" sub DOES NOT equal two 89dB sensitive 12"ers. What about excursion and cone area??? In any case, the two 12"ers will move a lot more air than one.

4. The Nd12 was designed with high sensitivity, and decent low bass, the tradeoff being enclosure volume (based Hoffmans Iron Law). The Nd12 needs a 2.25cuft enclosure to work as intended, right? How is Dharams gonna fit 2 of those enclosures into an 800's boot. And if he CAN, why not consider other 15" subs that will work in less than 2cuft. You will agree 2x15" subs will generally have more SPL than 2x12" subs.

5. Sure, I'll take your word for the Nd12s high build quality. And let me add, the iDQ subs are really basic looking subs. They DONT have neo magnets, and other exotica. They are designed to represent 'Old School' and while we love their look, others dont. But at the end of the day, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. All the exotic ingredients in the world dont matter if it doesnt sound good. As far as the SQ of iDQ12 Vs Nd12 is concerned, the internet is your playground... search around, ask others... You will consistently be told the iDQ beats many other SQ subs hands down irrespective of price or build quality.

For Dhramas, you gotta listen to some demo cars, installs etc. Hear what product represent YOUR kinda sound. While we all here have our own opinions, it is your money, your car, and your ears. We cannot correctly predict what will sound good to you without more information of your listening tastes and music preference.

[Autophile]

real dampener however was that his car drowned in the rains last year, and the only equipment that emerged completely unharmed from the dowpour was the Illusion gear since they are practically waterproof.

Does Illusion do yachts..a real test for water resistance (not water proofing) for car audio...Image Dynamics do yachts for sure and big time. And for any speaker to be labelled as waterproof it has to be IP rated for waterproofing.

As the Illusion voice coil is open because of neo magnet located in the front of the sub.....Illusion can be water resistant only when they are mounted inverted in the enclosure.

Illusion subs are 4 ohm subs... True. So put a pair in parallel and you have 2 ohms. There are a zillion 2-ohm stable monoblocks, far more than 4-ohm monoblocks and 1-ohm stable ones, out there that can drive this load. I don't see any issue. I suppose that you must be using the D2s in 4 ohm mode too, right? Otherwise, your resultant load is either 0.5ohm or 4 ohms, not very worthy of your Class D monoblock.

Image Dynamics are available in Dual 2 ohms and Dual 4 ohms voice coils. Tool has dual 2 ohm version hence the final load on the amplifier is 2 ohms with two subs in parallel

Power handling is a bit lower on the Illusions, the sensitivity is far more on the other hand, 6 whopping dBs to be precise. With the same amount of input power, with all other performance parameters constant, the Illusions will be louder. Although this isn't a debate about how many dBs in SPL which sub will clock, the point is that this difference translates into lesser amplification cost, hence a lesser strain on your charging system, and lesser spend on the cabling. To sum it up, a 6 dB sensitivity difference means that one Illusion Nd12 with X Wrms of input power would sound as loud as two IDQ D2s fed with 2X Wrms of input power.

Already explained by Gunbir. I would prefer any day an insensitive subwoofer driven by powerful amplifier rather than sensitive subwoofer driven by low power amplifier.

Illusions are far far more expensive to build in terms of the material costs involved. Everything that goes into Illusion Audio drivers is more than twice the cost of materials used in the IDQs.

Agreed but at the end of the day its all about how the sub performs and sounds. Sometimes some of the most exotic speakers with expensive materials do not sound good compared to the cheaper ones with simple materials.

Also, they are more complex to assemble. Illusion uses a Neodymium magnet, a carbon fiber cone, a die-cast basket, edge-wound voice-coil, waterproof glues for all the glued parts, a waterproof conex spider, gold plated screw terminals etc. So they have to be expensive. This does not imply in any way that IDQ subs are good or bad compared to the Illusion.

Again its the sound which matters. If we have IDQ with gold plated basket it will be expensive and in sound it will be identical to the regular ones. In the end i mean to say is its the design and implication which matters the most than materials.

In the end no sound, no food is best. Just trust your senses and go ahead with what you like.

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by gunbir

Ooooh... yummy... and here I was getting bored this lazy Saturday afternoon. B&T, Im no engineer (let alone an audio one) but I know you were wrong about a few things.

Sure is a nice debate for a lazy Saturday evening, you can say that again. Although, a better way to do this would be huddle around a table and do this over a few jugs of beer. 'I can't waiiiiiit for the weekend to begin........'

Sir, but I am a bit confounded about you constantly wronging me without as much as paying detailed attention to my posts. Please, have some patience with me sir, I'm no guru. Are you under the impression that I am in anyway trying to defame you or the lines you represent, sir? No, I don't and wouldn't do that! I adore them as much myself. Why do you take me to be like leading a scathing attack on ID or so? Or like I'm trying to prove whetever else is out there is better or worse than it? Is there anything I have said that offends you? I would readily take it back.

Before I put forth my views, let me clarify, that first and foremost, my views were and are completely clear of all kinds of comparison between the two products on the basis of quality, perceived or otherwise. It is subjective as we all know, and I didn't get into that part at all. It is purely based on some pretty fundamental stuff, no urban legends here. Nevertheless, the explanation shall follow.

Originally Posted by gunbir

1. A 6dB increase does not mean double the loudness. But in fact four times as loud. Remember, loudness doubles (as humans percieve it) EVERY 3dB.

Sir, I am sorry to say this, but you have infintely argued with me about certain miniscule and basic audio theories like "mono subs are louder", when I said i didn't understand how, you said "I'm surprised YOU are asking me this question". There was nothing to be surprised about, I am acceptably far less endowed in the audio department than you. Please don't bear any grudge that I am trying to teach you something. Correct, maybe yes. After much debating, it turned out that theoretically, they weren't actually louder after all, just a one-off experience that you had with a Clarion head unit behaving that way. No big deal sir, sometimes things get confusing when it comes to audio, and I sure am far more confused than anyone else if that is relieving. Hence I ask, and ask politely, with due respect for your ages old affinity for great car audio. Anyway, this time around I hope you're right for your own good. So please don't label me as WRONG with such immediacy and inaccuracy. If I can theoretically prove something, I will, otherwise I will not. I am not talking based on Tool's evaluation (or yours') of the IDQ, nor mine of the Illusion. These are mere numbers and facts.

Hence, when did I say that 6dB is exactly double the loudness???? Are you even reading my posts right? You say it's 4 times louder as the human ear percieves it, and that is in all it's entirety, exactly what I said with the example below.....

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

a 6 dB sensitivity difference means that one Illusion Nd12 with X Wrms of input power would sound as loud as two IDQ D2s fed with 2X Wrms of input power.

Twice the amount of power for the 2 IDQs, as compared to a single Illusion driver. So that's a 3 dB gain on account of double the cone area, and another 3 dB for double the input power. A total of 6 dB to make up for the difference in sensitivities of the two configurations, and hence they produce almost exactly equal spl. That's what I said... So what part am I wrong about??? I didn't say that it'll sound better or anything distantly related to performance or sound quality, so what bothered you there?

Originally Posted by gunbir

2. By that standard an Rs 8K Hertz ES300D (97dB sensitive) would be even better than the Illusion. But as you and I both know, thats not the case. Sensitivity is not the measure of subwoofer performance. Specially when you're talking about a Rs25K sub. .

Wherever did you get the idea that I was hinting at higher performance being a by-product of higher sensitivity drivers? Tool mentioned, that without any other consideration, the handling on the Illusions is lower than the IDq, which it is, but not something that should affect the buying decision of Dharams, since it is not a worrying factor. What is lost in handling is gained in efficiency, that's all! Likewise, did I try to interpret Tool's statement as "Subs with higher power handling are better performance subs"???? You know I wouldn't say that, I'm surprised that you interpret me thus though on the basis of sensitivity. My point purely being, slightly lower power handling is not necessarily a major roadblock if your driver is sensitive. Simple.

Originally Posted by gunbir

Anybody who can afford to put 50K into subs can put in adequate money into a good mono amp. So while higher sensitivity makes sense for low-budget applications (where you gotta run a sub of say 2 bridges channels of a Sony 504), with the cost of watt-per-rupee coming down everyday, it does not really make sense (to me) in high value systems as there is a decent budget for amplification

Bravo! I couldn't more agree with you. Someone who's spending 50k on subs alone should buy fitting amps. Agreed. So he should go out and buy a Soundstorm 10000 W rms monoblock (if they make one) for Rs. 100k, or a Tru-Tech B1800 that delivers just 800W rms at the same price? Ok, really bad example, but I thought it was fitting since you mention the Sony 504!?!? So why get into comparing brands of amplification when the issue at hand is one of power delivery alone? So wouldn't you spend lesser money on an amp from the same brand and lineage if it were to produce lesser power and do the same job qualitatively and yet manage the same spl?

Don't you preach that it's the quality of watts that matters not the watts/ buck? Don't I truly agree that, that cannot be more correct and I wouldnt ever argue with you on that one? So if you had a budget of 50000 for an amp, and you owned a sensitive sub, you could still buy a Tru-Tech amp with lower power output than another Tru-Tech with more power output, with no compromise in sound quality and yet achieve the same spl? Isn't that like a saving with a more sensitive sub? Now please don't tell me that a higher power amplifier would damp better or something, because this holds true for both scenarios in concern here, whether Illusion or ID or even Banana Audio! Meaning, if you drive the Illusions to a certain spl, based on the operating power consumed, there should be an identical headroom for the sub as for the ID achieving the same spl, but in the latter case the ultimate target amplification power would be proportionately higher since the duo is going to consume higher continuous power.

Originally Posted by gunbir

3. One 96dB sensitivity 12" sub DOES NOT equal two 89dB sensitive 12"ers. What about excursion and cone area??? In any case, the two 12"ers will move a lot more air than one.

Full off-track. Before I reiterate that I never said that a 96dB sub equates to 2 or whatever number of 12" ers, I hate to say this is easily the stupidest thing you could have said. Honestly. Maybe, we should also consider magnet size, spider size, voice coil winding width etc in order to 'equate subs' based on sensitivity. Whatever this equating subs business is! SPL output, there sure is a formula to equate on that parameter alone, and heck, what have things like Cone size etc. got to do once the driver has been manufactured with certain sensitivity numbers? No?

So I ask, "What about excursion and cone area"? Is sensitivity something that changes after the driver was measured in a lab and then someone looks at it and realizes, "Oh my God, this guy has a bigger surround and cone than we thought, Let's change the sensitivity to 106 dB"? Are you serious, Gunbir? Is this even you? Or has someone hacked into your forum ID? Or, "Gosh, we have two subs, so now we're moving more air, so now?" Dude just add 3 dB if the subs are identical. How does that change how they compare sensitivity-wise with some other sub altogether irrespective of how it was built as long as it has a sensitivity number attached to it? It's a plain numerical thing.

A 95 dB sub, for all spl purposes is a 95 dB sub. A 89 dB sub is a 89 dB sub. Provided they have been measured in their frequency of operation as per standards with whatever parts the designer decided to grace them with, whether it was a large surround or a miniscule throw or an inverted dust-cap. So provide one watt of power to the 95 db sub and one watt each to both the 89dB subs, and in a level playing field they will sound equally loud. It will not matter whether the 89 dB sub is a 12"er or a 70"er. Likewise, it wont matter whether the 95 dB sub was a 4". I am exaggerating the sizes here so that you get the picture, so please don't tell me that you cant make a 4" sub driver with 95dB sensitivity, same for excursions...all that came accounted for when someone gives you a subwoofer spec sheet. It is the result of the cone area and excursion and other such parameters that have caused the sub to clock the sensitivity that it just did! So once you know the sensitivity, you dont go back to the cone area and excursion, that's fixed. Come on Gunbir, you know this shyt! Sensitivity (in the same band as mentioned above, lest you bring that up...phew!) is sensitivity, period! In-car sensitivity is different, and hence I say level playing field up there. The subs better be used alike, not like one in a ported box, and one sealed. Also, the frequencies at which the peak spl is achieved, response curve etc will all be different, but the more sensitive sub will surely move more air per unit power so as to remain louder. Flat and clean, dippy or peaky, or not would depend from sub to sub.

Originally Posted by gunbir

4. The Nd12 was designed with high sensitivity, and decent low bass, the tradeoff being enclosure volume (based Hoffmans Iron Law). The Nd12 needs a 2.25cuft enclosure to work as intended, right? How is Dharams gonna fit 2 of those enclosures into an 800's boot. And if he CAN, why not consider other 15" subs that will work in less than 2cuft. You will agree 2x15" subs will generally have more SPL than 2x12" subs.

There is a tradeoff between ability to play low in small sealed boxes, and sensitivity. What the Illusion lacks in enclosure size, is made up for in sensitivity, and vice versa for the IDs. This is an unalterable equation for productionized dynamic drive-units. So use one Illusion driver in a large box, or two IDs in boxes less than half the size. And I didn't ask anyone to go out and buy two subs to cram in the 800. In fact you shouldn't if one sub can do the job. The only trade-off would be in two subs having to work half as harder than one, of the same kind to produce the same spl. That is a downside for the Illusion which I readily agree, since, in the first place, when it means that the Illusion is more sensitive, it translates into an Illusion Audio driver moving more air than a lower sensitivity driver of the same size, and hence the only way it can achieve this is by greater excursion. So two IDs producing the same spl will be moving only half as much as one Illusion driver (of the same size) so there is certainly less cone distortion, but you gotta feed the ID babies twice the power to achieve this. Neither the power, nor the sensitivity is being portrayed by me as some sort of advantage or otherwise. This is just a fact, not a measure of quality for any sub under the sun.

5. Sure, I'll take your word for the Nd12s high build quality. And let me add, the iDQ subs are really basic looking subs. They DONT have neo magnets, and other exotica. They are designed to represent 'Old School' and while we love their look, others dont. But at the end of the day, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. All the exotic ingredients in the world dont matter if it doesnt sound good. As far as the SQ of iDQ12 Vs Nd12 is concerned, the internet is your playground... search around, ask others... You will consistently be told the iDQ beats many other SQ subs hands down irrespective of price or build quality.

Time and again, I have reiterated that this is no one-on-one of the Nd12 v/s the ID. As far as the opinions of those on the internet is concerned, let me tell you that the Illusions are no less revered than the IDs and that although the no. of reviews for Illusion would be far lesser, it is because there are far lesser clients owning Illusion Audio worldwide than ID, not because the product is of a lesser calibre, but because a) Illusion Audio is a far newer company than ID, using a newer technology, farthest from 'old school' and b) Illusion Audio abruptly shut down distribution in the US in 2003 due to internal problems rather than having anything to do with the products. I have test reports from rather renowned labs in the US that rate Illusion over ID, but this is not my contention here. Let that not be yours either. I respect the IDs and a 14 yr old kid writing something wrong about it on some forum wouldnt change my opinion about the way i regard them.

When I pointed out the ingredients, they were meant to highlight the fact that they don't come expensive without any reasoning as Tool certainly felt. Just cos something sounds good, doesnt mean you ought to pay a fortune. There's nothing wrong with the old school look, and even if someone else is perturbed, I certainly am not. You miss the point. This is not personal. The IDs are gorgeous.

Originally Posted by gunbir

For Dhramas, you gotta listen to some demo cars, installs etc. Hear what product represent YOUR kinda sound. While we all here have our own opinions, it is your money, your car, and your ears. We cannot correctly predict what will sound good to you without more information of your listening tastes and music preference.

Bingo!

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by Autophile

Does Illusion do yachts..a real test for water resistance (not water proofing) for car audio...Image Dynamics do yachts for sure and big time. And for any speaker to be labelled as waterproof it has to be IP rated for waterproofing.

As the Illusion voice coil is open because of neo magnet located in the front of the sub.....

Now you got me laughing actually. So if you immerse the windings of the voice coil in water, they short? I really didn't know that. Ever wonder why they don't short each other and act like a lump of copper even normally. I mean, they are constantly touching one another, right? And yeah, people certainly use Illusion Audio for marine applications. And the Aluminium chassis sure wouldn't wear out half as fast as some steel chassis would when exposed to saline environment.

Originally Posted by Autophile

Illusion can be water resistant only when they are mounted inverted in the enclosure.

Your confidence is astonishing. Maybe you use Illusion Audio more than I have seen in a lifetime!

Originally Posted by Autophile

Image Dynamics are available in Dual 2 ohms and Dual 4 ohms voice coils. Tool has dual 2 ohm version hence the final load on the amplifier is 2 ohms with two subs in parallel

Thanks. So then I guess Tool is right about, 'there's an issue with wiring two 4-ohm Illusion Nd12s to a 2-ohm monoblock'. What say? We're going round n round, this is dizzying!

Originally Posted by Autophile

Already explained by Gunbir. I would prefer any day an insensitive subwoofer driven by powerful amplifier rather than sensitive subwoofer driven by low power amplifier.

Nice preference. But I wasnt talking about that anyway.

Originally Posted by Autophile

Agreed but at the end of the day its all about how the sub performs and sounds. Sometimes some of the most exotic speakers with expensive materials do not sound good compared to the cheaper ones with simple materials.

Again its the sound which matters. If we have IDQ with gold plated basket it will be expensive and in sound it will be identical to the regular ones. In the end i mean to say is its the design and implication which matters the most than materials.

Not one of the materials named is without a beneficial purpose. Is it sensible to compare it to a Gold-plated basket??? You guys decide, I'm not having any more of this.

[gunbir]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

a better way to do this would be huddle around a table and do this over a few jugs of beer. 'I can't waiiiiiit for the weekend to begin........'

Yeaaahhh... speaking of which, this last visit to Mumbai was a hectic one. We missed out on quite a few folks, but we were most dissapointed about not being able to meet up with you... Anywayz, next time (possibly soon) we will get those jugs of the good stuff...

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Sir, but I am a bit confounded about you constantly wronging me without as much as paying detailed attention to my posts. Please, have some patience with me sir, I'm no guru.

B&T neither am I. I did not 'wrong' you. And I did not compare any two products. That was brought up by you when you directly compared the iD sub and the illusion sub, and some comments were made, which most people on this forum would mis-read. Yeah. I have a habit of standing up for what I believe in. Whether its a product my company does/dorsnt sell, or anything else for that matter. And I understand that you are doing the same, standing up for what YOU believe in... and thats fine with me bro.

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Sir, I am sorry to say this, but you have infintely argued with me about certain miniscule and basic audio theories like "mono subs are louder", when I said i didn't understand how, you said "I'm surprised YOU are asking me this question". There was nothing to be surprised about, I am acceptably far less endowed in the audio department than you. Please don't bear any grudge that I am trying to teach you something. Correct, maybe yes. After much debating, it turned out that theoretically, they weren't actually louder after all, just a one-off experience that you had with a Clarion head unit behaving that way. No big deal sir, sometimes things get confusing when it comes to audio, and I sure am far more confused than anyone else if that is relieving.

B&T my dear friend. You read too much into these things. Chill. Relax. Re the Clarion/2subs issue, how about I demonstrate to you better imaging even with one sub, when I switch from mono to stereo sub output on the HU. just trying to explain to you that we dont talk out of our butts a la Ace Ventura... My yap is based on actual experience and facts. just cuz your experiments results were different doesnt mean I am wrong. And If I am wrong according to you, why should it matter to me... plenty of folks have heard the difference with their own ears...

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Hence I ask, and ask politely, with due respect for your ages old affinity for great car audio. Anyway, this time around I hope you're right for your own good. So please don't label me as WRONG with such immediacy and inaccuracy. If I can theoretically prove something, I will, otherwise I will not. I am not talking based on Tool's evaluation (or yours') of the IDQ, nor mine of the Illusion. These are mere numbers and facts.

OK. If its that big a deal to you, I wont.

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

So he should go out and buy a Soundstorm 10000 W rms monoblock (if they make one) for Rs. 100k, or a Tru-Tech B1800 that delivers just 800W rms at the same price? Ok, really bad example, but I thought it was fitting since you mention the Sony 504!?!?

Why do you think the Sony 504 was mentioned to discomfort you??? I actually meant what I said (and it wasnt pointed in any way, you are reading way too deep into this). There are plenty of folks on a low budget who cant afford a 10k amp and can only afford the Sony 504. For them an efficient sub is perfect. I think I made that clear in my post.

Man, we have 97dB subs, even 101 dB subs... I think high efficiency subs are great. But saying they're better than others just because of sensitivity is incorrect and we try to avoid saying that.

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

So why get into comparing brands of amplification when the issue at hand is one of power delivery alone? So wouldn't you spend lesser money on an amp from the same brand and lineage if it were to produce lesser power and do the same job qualitatively and yet manage the same spl?

I didnt compare ANY brands of amplification. I only mentioned one amplifier in my entire post. And I had grounds for that too... as explained above. Again, its obvious you're taking this way too personally, when there is no malice intended.

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

I hate to say this is easily the stupidest thing you could have said. Honestly.

Sometimes people say stupid things, especially when they're not required or called for... ^^^

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Neither the power, nor the sensitivity is being portrayed by me as some sort of advantage or otherwise. This is just a fact, not a measure of quality for any sub under the sun.

Then we are on the same page, finally!!! Glad you agree.

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Time and again, I have reiterated that this is no one-on-one of the Nd12 v/s the ID.

Really??? Then what was intended by this line "Everything that goes into Illusion Audio drivers is more than twice the cost of materials used in the IDQs."

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

As far as the opinions of those on the internet is concerned, let me tell you that the Illusions are no less revered than the IDs and that although the no. of reviews for Illusion would be far lesser, it is because there are far lesser clients owning Illusion Audio worldwide than ID, not because the product is of a lesser calibre, but because a) Illusion Audio is a far newer company than ID, using a newer technology, farthest from 'old school'

and b) Illusion Audio abruptly shut down distribution in the US in 2003 due to internal problems rather than having anything to do with the products. I have test reports from rather renowned labs in the US that rate Illusion over ID, but this is not my contention here. Let that not be yours either.

I will not say you are wrong cuz you dont like that. Let me phrase this another way... the above statement may not be correct in its entirety.

Image Dynamics and Illusion Audio were originally founded around the same time... look it up.

The reviews you are talking about... these wouldnt happen to be quite old now would they. The fact of the matter is the iD product has evolved several times since then and is far better now then it was then.

The fact is (and you know this better than me)... many a car audio veteran will tell you Illusion's quality went for a dive when they moved production outide the US, namely India. In fact, if you were to ask most car audio veterans in the US... they will tell you Illusion closed shop and no longer manufactures. I know this is not entirely correct, but it isnt entirely wrong now is it? There is a reason Illusion isnt doing much business anywhere in the world... and you know what it is... I dont want to get into the nitty gritties of this, cuz a public display is not what this is about.

Meanwhile, iD design, manufacture their product in house in California, have moved to a larger factory to cope up with the massive demand for their product, are ODM to many other sucessful brands, and consistently have outperformed other products in competitions and tests.

Lastly, dont take things so personally man. Go ahead and enjoy your evening...

Cheers

[Autophile]

B&T,

Whats the whole fuss about. Why there are so many explainations.

I have used Nd12's in the past. I am very well aware of what they are capable of.


Its nice that Illusion is doing good in yachts, which are non existant in India. Any of us would consider ourselves lucky to come across a yacht install, anyways my point is that spending money in making so called waterproof or water resistant speakers for car audio is pointless. Unless one has customers who like driving with the boot open in the monsoons.

The cones / motors can wear out much before baskets, does not matter if it is stamped or cast again depends on subwoofer mounting (inverted or normal).

FYI ID does custom products for marine applications not the standard car audio products. They make custom products in their own factory in California besides normal car audio lineup.


To put two Illusion Audio in a sealed box would require 4.5 cuft of space. In most cases people would like to choose practicality over sound quality. The same problem I have faced with Dynaudio MW190 in the past which needs sealed box anywhere from 2 to 4cuft again a very good subwoofer but fell prey to its box size.

B&T we live in India where families ownes single car, very few individuals has their own cars which they also share, boot spaces are premium and spare wheels are must. Rest I don't need to explain.

Ideally I would like to alot same budget for subwoofer and amplifier. Eg. If subwoofer costs Rs. 25000, I would like to power it with Rs 25000 or more amplifier and 25K is good budget to buy a decent mono amp which can easily surpass or meet the subwoofers power requirement.

And people who are buying subs like Nd12 and IDQ's need control in bass and ultimate SQ which is possible only with good quality amps hence cheaper amps are ruled out. And in SQ system the subwoofer should blend seamlessly with the front stage (its hard to find 95-100dB sensitive speakers). A loud subwoofer blowing its own trumpet is not needed in SQ system. To balance a sensitive sub either one has to turn the sub level down or buy powerful front stage powered with high power amp.

My point is, in SQ systems the sensitivity of driver is not a big issue and is not as badly desired as in SPL systems. And also I call both IDQ and Nd's "SQ drivers"


Its good to use exotic materials in contruction of a driver and it helps too if implemented in the design right, some companies over engineer their product which increases its cost. So sometimes consumer is paying for the sound + the exotic materials, where only thing matters is sound.

The low powered and light motor subwoofer don't need heavy baskets its only required in the high power subs with big magnets. But there is a certain sect of people in car audio claiming to percieve the difference in sound of stamped basket vs cast basket (cast basket being superior according to them) but I think its stupidity.

Illusion might be spending "more than twice" in ND12 than the cost of materials used in the IDQs. But is the difference in the overall sound is also "more than twice" to justify the cost difference. I guess not.

In the end in SQ the better sounding equipment is preferred and better sounding car wins. The only test equipment is human ear and the parameter or scale is "Sound Quality".