Proposed Audio Config..

navin · 30th October 2004, 14:55

which balus did you try. i used blaus too in my system because (1) alpine and JBL were almost twice as expensive and (2) blau has phase reversal that in effect allows you to have 2 settings for the treble. GTO also told me that Blau's would be most neutral. Compared the the Alpine the Blau's do have a slightly warmer tonal balance but the Alpines do sound more transparent.

anyway this is only for now. I am investigating using Fostex (FX120, F120A) or Jordan (JX92) for the front or even something cheaper (fostex FE103 rear, FE127 front, FF125K front).

allajunaki · 31st October 2004, 11:33

navin can u pleas explain the Phase reversal thing..(I know whats Phase Reversal. But how is it done in blaupunkts..Is it just reverse the wiring? and what sort of change will i see..? )
Im using Blaupunkt GTx693 Rear speaks..(Triaxial Speaks)..
Also can u explain what do u mean by warmer tonal balance? (I know warmer in Display = more reddish tinge.. so is warmer in sound = More Vocal .i.e Mids? )

libre sito · 1st November 2004, 03:32

hey guys i don know why im the only person who feels tat blaupunkt r really good speakers as compared to others commonly available.
My speakers handel low and high frequencies very well and the clarity with the oe front speakers is just too good for words.
Even our fellow bhpian Kavit will vouch for me that pioneer seems to bland as compared to a blaupunkt in comparison of bass and clarity.
Well maybe tat my setup is done for the best performance but then again i have a dedicated amp for my rear speakers and a deicated amp for my subwoffer nd front speakers both of them 4 channel but they r like a base model nd top of the line model so u know the rear spkrs don get tat much of power as compared to the sub nd the front speakers.My sub absorbs atleast twice the power of what my rear speakers absorb.
Well all i can say is tat im confused that blaupunkt is not playing well in your car irrespective of the kinda music you play???

navin · 1st November 2004, 13:18

libre, who said blau's are not good. blau's are good value for money (compared to alpne and jbl).

ref: phase reversal......
in a 2 way speaker one has a woofer and a tweeter. for most component systems one get 2 pcs per speaker (woofer, tweeter and a little black box called a crossover). the amplifier is connected to the crossover and the crossover is then connected to the woofer and tweeter. in most component systems the crossover is usually 2nd order. a 2nd order XO introduces a 180deg phase shift in the response curves. Hence in many cases the tweeter is wired in reverse phase to compensate for this 180deg phase shift. However if one does not connect the tweeter in reverse phase but in phase one will notice a suckout around the XO freq. usually around 2khz-6khz. this often makes speakers sound warmer as it emphasies the lower freq (100-1khz). in a car thanks to the large glass panels and the speaker locations (dash, door, kickpanels etc..) the time delay due to the phase shift is not so noticeable so one can listen to the tweeter in phase as well as out of phase and see what sounds best.

blau even offers a phase switch that allows one to swtich quickly between in phase and out of phase and listen. in ohter system one has to physically switch the tweeter wires.

allajunaki · 2nd November 2004, 14:24

Ok... dude.. first of all My Fronts are not Blaupunkts They are Oxygen speakers... Oxygen Speakers are Composite Speakers (But with seperate inputs...) and a cross over module... So Basically what you tring to say is that , I just switch the tweets Input and presto, I get a lil warmer sound??
Will check it out if its possible...

BTW, found a neat hack for ppl woth proper fronts...
When ur Pio 5650 is switched off Press and hold Func. now keep scrolling thru func by tapping func button till u reach R-SP:FUL press Up/Down button to select R-SP:S/W.
Now switch on ur deck, switch on the SWF and set it to 125Hz and swithch on HPF... Now u have thumping beats from rear and Fronts will handle AMid and highs (My Oxygen Fronts can handle good amound of bass.. so I dont switch on HPF @ all )... But this is good only with 2 ppl and U want to show off Bass... (O2 Speaks of mine has tweets and mids.. and they handle Bass too , quite well so No question of Only bass and nothing else.. But the Clarty suffers to some extend in the rear...)

navin · 2nd November 2004, 15:14

it could depends on the XO slope and default phase.

allajunaki · 2nd November 2004, 20:19

Hey i got a link to this amazing site Basic Car Audio Electronics... it has most of the explanations...
I have one confusion though...
Blaupunkt GTx693 Has 135x2Watts total Output but the Rated Output is 45x2Watts.
Pio 4way has 350Watts(No mention if its single speak or total,but since nothing is metions I guess its total) but NOMINAL input of 80Watts.
2 things linger in my head... whats the diff. between Rated and Nominal? Are they same as RMS?
If they are similar how come Blau's have higher Power than Pio if Pio has higher PMPO..
Answers to there q are not ganna affect my purchse desicion(as i have already purchased

).. But I just need the info thats all...
Also whats I.C.E ? its some lingo used to call Car Audio buffs.. is it 'In Car Entertainment' ?

navin · 3rd November 2004, 13:14

marketing rears it's ugly head. in car audio this is doubly so. RMS power over the entire freq spectrum at less than 1% distortion is the only measurement you should look at. for those who are willing to argue that 1% distortion is too much please remember we are talking about speakers here not amplifiers. 1% distortion at 90db at 50Hz at 1m is very hard to achieve by most speakers leave alone car speakers and 90db is not even very loud.

ideally speaker specs should have 4 parameters: sensitivity in db should look like "90db/1w/1m, 97db/10w/1m", distortion at ref freqs esp true for woofers should look like "1% at 50Hz at 95db", freq. response curves at 1W and 10W rms, and decay charts at 1W and 10W. The reason to have specs at 1W and 10W rms is that it gives one a fair idea of how a speaker compresses the electrical signal. I find compression to be the big difference between a good speaker and a great speaker. A speaker can sound loud at 90db becuase of the distortions associated with compression or a speaker can sound clean at 100db if there is little or no compression over a major part of the aural spectrum.

as far as Pioneer and Blaupunkt go there can both be accused of lying to various degrees. PMPO had NO guidelines. It is a spec that should be trashed. No major standards body (indian, european or american) has validated it. Rated Output is a similarly useless spec. Nominal specs are just aht Nominal. unless the conditions that they were takne under are spcified they are useless too. Specs that make any sense cover the freq. spectrum, RMS power used to take the specs, sensitivity, and distance from speaker at which the measurements were taken. Any spec that does not include ALL 4 of these parameters ATLEAST is useless. It is a LIE.

Now if I were to choose between these to speakers without teh benefit of proper spec sheets I would use my ears. Human ears are horribly accurate. I have found that even non audio buffs like my sister and wife can tell small differences in speakers and amplifiers.

The Human ear is most sensitive to the human voice and teh freq. range it covers. If I were you I'd take some solo music and some ochestral music and use my ears. Any dealer that is not willing to demo your speakers in your car is not worth his salt. It is your meony. You have to see if the shoe fits before you buy it. I find dealers try to talk customers into buying stuff and if not try to indimiate customers. One dealer tried this with me I have never gone there again.

zzzehar · 31st August 2005, 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by libre sito

hey i just had a sony mp3 player 3300,blaupunkt rear 6x9,pioneer front spkrs nd tints done in a felllow bhpians zen nd he paid 12500 all inclusive.Got it done in milan at choksi motors but if u can strech ur budget a bit go for audiobhan 6x9s which will cost u abt 2 grand more but its amazing nd availavle at choksi.PM me as i know the owner very well so ill get u the best price.

which Blaupunkt 6x9's U got and how much did they cost? What abt Audiobahn which model and how much do they cost?

30th October 2004, 14:55	#31
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,194 Thanked: 9,282 Times	which balus did you try. i used blaus too in my system because (1) alpine and JBL were almost twice as expensive and (2) blau has phase reversal that in effect allows you to have 2 settings for the treble. GTO also told me that Blau's would be most neutral. Compared the the Alpine the Blau's do have a slightly warmer tonal balance but the Alpines do sound more transparent. anyway this is only for now. I am investigating using Fostex (FX120, F120A) or Jordan (JX92) for the front or even something cheaper (fostex FE103 rear, FE127 front, FF125K front).
	() Thanks

31st October 2004, 11:33	#32
allajunaki BHPian Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Sydney Posts: 165 Thanked: 97 Times	navin can u pleas explain the Phase reversal thing..(I know whats Phase Reversal. But how is it done in blaupunkts..Is it just reverse the wiring? and what sort of change will i see..? ) Im using Blaupunkt GTx693 Rear speaks..(Triaxial Speaks).. Also can u explain what do u mean by warmer tonal balance? (I know warmer in Display = more reddish tinge.. so is warmer in sound = More Vocal .i.e Mids? )
	() Thanks

1st November 2004, 03:32	#33
libre sito BHPian Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mumbai/Brooklyn/New Jersey Posts: 149 Thanked: 5 Times	hey guys i don know why im the only person who feels tat blaupunkt r really good speakers as compared to others commonly available. My speakers handel low and high frequencies very well and the clarity with the oe front speakers is just too good for words. Even our fellow bhpian Kavit will vouch for me that pioneer seems to bland as compared to a blaupunkt in comparison of bass and clarity. Well maybe tat my setup is done for the best performance but then again i have a dedicated amp for my rear speakers and a deicated amp for my subwoffer nd front speakers both of them 4 channel but they r like a base model nd top of the line model so u know the rear spkrs don get tat much of power as compared to the sub nd the front speakers.My sub absorbs atleast twice the power of what my rear speakers absorb. Well all i can say is tat im confused that blaupunkt is not playing well in your car irrespective of the kinda music you play???
	() Thanks

1st November 2004, 13:18	#34
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,194 Thanked: 9,282 Times	libre, who said blau's are not good. blau's are good value for money (compared to alpne and jbl). ref: phase reversal...... in a 2 way speaker one has a woofer and a tweeter. for most component systems one get 2 pcs per speaker (woofer, tweeter and a little black box called a crossover). the amplifier is connected to the crossover and the crossover is then connected to the woofer and tweeter. in most component systems the crossover is usually 2nd order. a 2nd order XO introduces a 180deg phase shift in the response curves. Hence in many cases the tweeter is wired in reverse phase to compensate for this 180deg phase shift. However if one does not connect the tweeter in reverse phase but in phase one will notice a suckout around the XO freq. usually around 2khz-6khz. this often makes speakers sound warmer as it emphasies the lower freq (100-1khz). in a car thanks to the large glass panels and the speaker locations (dash, door, kickpanels etc..) the time delay due to the phase shift is not so noticeable so one can listen to the tweeter in phase as well as out of phase and see what sounds best. blau even offers a phase switch that allows one to swtich quickly between in phase and out of phase and listen. in ohter system one has to physically switch the tweeter wires.
	() Thanks

2nd November 2004, 14:24	#35
allajunaki BHPian Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Sydney Posts: 165 Thanked: 97 Times	Ok... dude.. first of all My Fronts are not Blaupunkts They are Oxygen speakers... Oxygen Speakers are Composite Speakers (But with seperate inputs...) and a cross over module... So Basically what you tring to say is that , I just switch the tweets Input and presto, I get a lil warmer sound?? Will check it out if its possible... BTW, found a neat hack for ppl woth proper fronts... When ur Pio 5650 is switched off Press and hold Func. now keep scrolling thru func by tapping func button till u reach R-SP:FUL press Up/Down button to select R-SP:S/W. Now switch on ur deck, switch on the SWF and set it to 125Hz and swithch on HPF... Now u have thumping beats from rear and Fronts will handle AMid and highs (My Oxygen Fronts can handle good amound of bass.. so I dont switch on HPF @ all )... But this is good only with 2 ppl and U want to show off Bass... (O2 Speaks of mine has tweets and mids.. and they handle Bass too , quite well so No question of Only bass and nothing else.. But the Clarty suffers to some extend in the rear...)
	() Thanks

2nd November 2004, 15:14	#36
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,194 Thanked: 9,282 Times	it could depends on the XO slope and default phase.
	() Thanks

2nd November 2004, 20:19	#37
allajunaki BHPian Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Sydney Posts: 165 Thanked: 97 Times	Hey i got a link to this amazing site Basic Car Audio Electronics... it has most of the explanations... I have one confusion though... Blaupunkt GTx693 Has 135x2Watts total Output but the Rated Output is 45x2Watts. Pio 4way has 350Watts(No mention if its single speak or total,but since nothing is metions I guess its total) but NOMINAL input of 80Watts. 2 things linger in my head... whats the diff. between Rated and Nominal? Are they same as RMS? If they are similar how come Blau's have higher Power than Pio if Pio has higher PMPO.. Answers to there q are not ganna affect my purchse desicion(as i have already purchased ).. But I just need the info thats all... Also whats I.C.E ? its some lingo used to call Car Audio buffs.. is it 'In Car Entertainment' ?
	() Thanks

3rd November 2004, 13:14	#38
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,194 Thanked: 9,282 Times	marketing rears it's ugly head. in car audio this is doubly so. RMS power over the entire freq spectrum at less than 1% distortion is the only measurement you should look at. for those who are willing to argue that 1% distortion is too much please remember we are talking about speakers here not amplifiers. 1% distortion at 90db at 50Hz at 1m is very hard to achieve by most speakers leave alone car speakers and 90db is not even very loud. ideally speaker specs should have 4 parameters: sensitivity in db should look like "90db/1w/1m, 97db/10w/1m", distortion at ref freqs esp true for woofers should look like "1% at 50Hz at 95db", freq. response curves at 1W and 10W rms, and decay charts at 1W and 10W. The reason to have specs at 1W and 10W rms is that it gives one a fair idea of how a speaker compresses the electrical signal. I find compression to be the big difference between a good speaker and a great speaker. A speaker can sound loud at 90db becuase of the distortions associated with compression or a speaker can sound clean at 100db if there is little or no compression over a major part of the aural spectrum. as far as Pioneer and Blaupunkt go there can both be accused of lying to various degrees. PMPO had NO guidelines. It is a spec that should be trashed. No major standards body (indian, european or american) has validated it. Rated Output is a similarly useless spec. Nominal specs are just aht Nominal. unless the conditions that they were takne under are spcified they are useless too. Specs that make any sense cover the freq. spectrum, RMS power used to take the specs, sensitivity, and distance from speaker at which the measurements were taken. Any spec that does not include ALL 4 of these parameters ATLEAST is useless. It is a LIE. Now if I were to choose between these to speakers without teh benefit of proper spec sheets I would use my ears. Human ears are horribly accurate. I have found that even non audio buffs like my sister and wife can tell small differences in speakers and amplifiers. The Human ear is most sensitive to the human voice and teh freq. range it covers. If I were you I'd take some solo music and some ochestral music and use my ears. Any dealer that is not willing to demo your speakers in your car is not worth his salt. It is your meony. You have to see if the shoe fits before you buy it. I find dealers try to talk customers into buying stuff and if not try to indimiate customers. One dealer tried this with me I have never gone there again.
	() Thanks