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Old 5th July 2019, 18:28   #1
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Default ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

Hey TBHPians,

I have a long frustrating ICE upgrade story to share, so please read with patience and would be great if anyone of you can be of any help to resolve my frustrating/annoying ICE upgrade issue.

Part 1 - Good happy times story

I own a Maruti Brezza (2018 top end model with Smart infotainment), and one fine day I decided to go for a ICE upgrade for my Car and gathered all possible information from TBHP forums & online, for a clean ICE upgrade.

Based on discussions/feedback in TBHP forums and few online reviews, I went ahead & purchased the below products

1). Morel Tempo Component Speakers
2). Morel Maximo Coaxial Speakers
3). Sony XM GS6 DSP 5/6 Channel Amplifier.
4). JL Audio 10W0V3-4 10 inch Sub woofer

I wanted to retain my stock HU since I was happy with its connectivity (especially Apple car play & Android Auto) and went ahead with the Installation.

Installation was done from a reputed Installer in Bangalore, everything went smooth & I was happy with the audio output.

After a couple of days I realized the Sony Amp had few limitations, for the DSP to work the Amp had to be setup as a 4.1 (which is 2 channel), and on this setup the Volume gain was very low even at 25-30 volume on my HU.

I got a chance to meet fellow TBHPian Vid6639 (Vidyut) (who by the way is a super cool guy who has good knowledge on this ICE stuff), he had a look at my setup & tried tunning the audio out put but did not make much difference since the stock HU had very limited options (no Equaliser, no Crossovers, no Time alignment).

By this time I had lost patience & decided to change my stok HU & go for a After market HU and a friend of mine was selling his year old Pioneer X8890BT Head Unit, I got this HU installed and wow the audio out put was amazing, absolutely loved it, tight punchy SW bass & good mid bass with excellent vocals... end of the story.

oh no WAIT!!! this is where all the issues started, read on

Part 2 - Tragic story without a climax

After installing Pioneer X8890BT Head unit, the next day I noticed that the display had brightness issues, and the reverse parking camera took a good 4-5 secs to show up on the screen, so I decided to return this HU and go for a new Pioneer HU and that is when I purchased a Pioneer Z9190 BT (with Wireless Car Play & Android Screen mirroring & supposedly built in DSP).

The next day I got the new HU installed and started driving back home and it was when that I started hear annoying sound, it is sort of a background echo sound (boomy bass type) that I could hear in any music file I played, it felt as though the speakers are producing sound which it is not supposed to play and inturn spoiling other sound frequencies.

I suspected the issue to be with the Sub woofer and decided to completely turn off / disconnect the SW, but this made no difference and I could still hear the annoying sound which was frustrating hence I went back to my installer and he tried all the possible tuning settings (change EQ, check cross overs, time alignment) but could do nothing and suggested to go back to the stock HU to see if it makes any difference and to ensure that the issue is not with the Pioneer Z9190BT head unit, based on his suggestion I moved back to stock HU but unfortunately the same issue continued where I could still hear the unwanted echo sound (the sound that is produced is very similar to the sound of a empty vessel).

Post this I visited couple of well known Audio installers in Bangalore and they both suggested to go for a new Amp, complete rewiring & and proper dual layer damping, their suggestions suprised me & I decided against it since with the same setup earlier my car audio output was fine. (also both the installer gave very negative feedback about the Sony DSP Amplifier).

After couple of days I again got a chance to meet Vidyut from TBHP and who had a look at the wiring connection to the Sony Amp and suspected this issue could be due to incorrect speaker polarity and we decided to do polarity checks during a weekend, by this time I had completely lost my patience which had turned into a frustration since I had already spent close to 75K (including new HU) for this setup which I was not happy about, more than the money spent I was surprised none of the installers could give a proper solution for this issue, hence I decided to go for a complete rewiring.

I went ahead and met Anwar from Top Gear who said this is a jarring issue and can be fixed, and suggested the below changes for a quote of 25k and I decided to go for it.

- Remove the exiting wiring and install High quality copper wires including Speakers and Amp wiring
- Install high quality RCA cables
- 3 layer damping for all the 5 doors (3rd layer on the door pads)
- Change of Sub woofer box (sealed)
- Polarity checks for all the speakers

Got all the above installation done on July 3rd hoping that finally this would fix the issue which has been bothering me but to my surprise it was a total waste of money and the same issue continued, I could still hear the same annoying echo type sound, Anwar tried tunning the setup but it hardly made any difference.

He then decided to try out another Amp and installed the Flux Neo 75.4 four channel Amplier... guess what it made no difference, the Flux Amp did help in reducing the noise by 10-15% approx when all the crossovers were set on the Amp and not on the HU, but the audio out put was flat, Anwar stressed on repalcing the Amp & add a Monoblock for the SW, I left his place disappointed and the issue continues till this minute.

I absolutely have no clue what to do next, whom to approach next for a permanent solution, I hope one day I will be able to fix this, hope some genius from TBHP will help me

Couple of things to note:-

- When the fader is moved towards the front component speakers (with SW off) the annoying sound/noise is reduced close to 50% but I can still hear it

- The only thing aspect left to be checked is Speakers replacement (replace existing Morels with other brand speakers) which no installer is willing to do since they do not have spare speakers.


PLEASE HELP/SUGGEST

Last edited by Kanasu : 5th July 2019 at 18:43.
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Old 5th July 2019, 20:34   #2
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Default re: ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanasu View Post
Hey TBHPians,

..
Couple of things to note:-

- When the fader is moved towards the front component speakers (with SW off) the annoying sound/noise is reduced close to 50% but I can still hear it

- The only thing aspect left to be checked is Speakers replacement (replace existing Morels with other brand speakers) which no installer is willing to do since they do not have spare speakers.


PLEASE HELP/SUGGEST
Hi Kanasu [nice handle there ]
I can understand your frustration [had similar experience long ago which luckily turned out to be just the alternator noise being picked up by the wiring]. In your case you've tried almost every component except for drivers [component/sw]. But then, drivers do not go bad on their own. I suspect some issue with electronics [HU/DSP].


Even if you change your drivers, you may not know the real reason for this issue and might risk damaging the new drivers [if the one of the electronics has gone bad - my guess DSP-Amp]. Looking at the chain of events I suspect something could've gone wrong during one of the 'upgrade' stages which damaged your speakers [and earlier HU].

Suggestion:
Try sourcing used/cheap components and run them without connecting SW for few days. If you don't see any issue you can go ahead with Driver upgrade only- assuming the damage was done in one of the installation events.

Also, if your DSP has an option - try with different source input [like your mobile headphone out]. Would suggest try this option first.

Last edited by somspaple : 5th July 2019 at 20:36.
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Old 5th July 2019, 21:11   #3
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Default re: ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

Take the battery inside your house (some kind of power supply) , also the amp, now wire up some other speakers and do some testing with an alternate source connected to the RCA. This test will not require any disassembly or ripping door cards.

The electrical wiring to either the amp or the head unit is at fault , a wild guess but let's see.

Do not spend more money on it, patience is now needed more than ever.

Last edited by Kosfactor : 5th July 2019 at 21:12.
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Old 5th July 2019, 21:11   #4
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Default re: ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

Quote:
Hi Kanasu [nice handle there ]
thank you

Quote:
I can understand your frustration [had similar experience long ago which luckily turned out to be just the alternator noise being picked up by the wiring]. In your case you've tried almost every component except for drivers [component/sw]. But then, drivers do not go bad on their own. I suspect some issue with electronics [HU/DSP].
This issue started the same day when I changed the HU to Pioneer 9190BT and even I suspected the issue to be with the new HU and decided to go back to the stock HU which again had the same annoying issue, so I am still not sure if the HU is causing this issue :(

Quote:
Suggestion:
Try sourcing used/cheap components and run them without connecting SW for few days. If you don't see any issue you can go ahead with Driver upgrade only- assuming the damage was done in one of the installation events.
Sure, thanks for the suggestion, I will start looking for a used components

another TBHPian suggested to swap my stock speakers with currently installed Morels, will give that a try aswell

but my question, is it even a possibility that both set of speakers (Component & Coaxial) getting damaged same time during one of the upgrades ?

Quote:
Also, if your DSP has an option - try with different source input [like your mobile headphone out]. Would suggest try this option first.
unfortunately don't think my HU or the DSP Amp has any such inputs but will have to crosscheck once

Also I forgot to highlight, the Sony DSP Amp has an option (when in 4.1 channel mode) to play music thru Bluetooth directly through the Amp by skipping the HU, I gave that a try and it made no difference
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Old 6th July 2019, 02:11   #5
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Default re: ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

Please clarify the following

1, Is it a kind of whining noise.
2. Does it exist when you listen to music without switching on the engine
3. Does the noise exist even when you are not playing any music with the entire audio system switched on (engine on)
3. Does the noise increase with volume
4. Does the noise get further highlighted when switching on the airconditioner

Regards
Kannan
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Old 8th July 2019, 01:10   #6
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Default re: ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanasu View Post
thank you

This issue started the same day when I changed the HU to Pioneer 9190BT and even I suspected the issue to be with the new HU and decided to go back to the stock HU which again had the same annoying issue, so I am still not sure if the HU is causing this issue :(

..

but my question, is it even a possibility that both set of speakers (Component & Coaxial) getting damaged same time during one of the upgrades ?

..
That's the reason i suspect one of the installation events itself. It's possible that your speakers were fed some high voltage in the process of installation.

Last edited by Aditya : 8th July 2019 at 16:50. Reason: Spacing
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Old 8th July 2019, 09:23   #7
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Default re: ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkannan View Post
Please clarify the following

1, Is it a kind of whining noise.
2. Does it exist when you listen to music without switching on the engine
3. Does the noise exist even when you are not playing any music with the entire audio system switched on (engine on)
3. Does the noise increase with volume
4. Does the noise get further highlighted when switching on the airconditioner

Regards
Kannan
NO is the answer to all the above questions..


It is very difficult for me to explain the sound that these speakers are making, it is more of a annoying midbass echo/boomy sound, this sound is spoiling the entire audio out put including the Sub Woofer... as I said earlier its more of a sound from a empty vessel which makes unnecessary noise (a noise which it is not supposed come out from the speakers)

Quote:
Originally Posted by somspaple View Post
That's the reason i suspect one of the installation events itself. It's possible that your speakers were fed some high voltage in the process of installation.

Yes, I am yet to test speakers, I am worried what if the current setup damages the stock speakers also if I try to swap with the existing ones..

another worry is what if the SW are also damaged, the JL subs that I have installed also not giving the output which it gave earlier..

will have to patiently wait till I get a decent used Component/Coaxial to get all these aspects checked
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Old 8th July 2019, 09:43   #8
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Default re: ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanasu View Post
When the fader is moved towards the front component speakers (with SW off) the annoying sound/noise is reduced close to 50% but I can still hear it
This means that the rear speakers and SW could be creating 50% of that booming sound effect. Check if there's any difference in output with the SW disconnected. I suspect some part of your setup to be faulty (either the HU, amp or speakers) rather than wiring, tuning or polarity as quite a few people have checked that now. You can check if any particular set of speakers (left ones, front ones, right ones, SW) are making that booming effect by using fader settings on your HU and disconnecting SW connnection. Fiddling with your existing setup is a better option than spending more money on used speakers just to diagnose the issue.

Also, what is the media from where you're playing songs? Make sure any kind of "surround sound" option is turned off.

Last edited by self_driven : 8th July 2019 at 09:49.
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Old 8th July 2019, 09:56   #9
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Default re: ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

You can record the sound and put it here for experts to analyze.

I am no audio guru but suggesting some very basic troubleshooting
Have you checked all output devices one by one? FL, FR, RL, RR, Woofer, etc?
Have you tried playing sound from multiple sources - USB, Bluetooth, Aux, CD. Does the problem continue with all sources?
Are you sure that this is not due to resonance?

Last edited by 2000rpm : 8th July 2019 at 10:15.
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Old 8th July 2019, 10:01   #10
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Default re: ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

Hi,
If i understand the issue correct, you have echo of high frequency and unnecessary boost to bass and mid-bass.
Disconnect the speakers and play them individually if the noise exists by keeping a keen eye on polarity and probably new set of wires. If the sound disappeares, you have issues with polarity or wiring.
Ignore if done already.

Last edited by saurabh2711 : 8th July 2019 at 10:16.
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Old 8th July 2019, 10:10   #11
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Default Re: ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

Just wanted to share a very relevant discussion here, in case it helps anyone - link (The Downside of High-End Audio Installs).

Hope your issues are fixed soon !
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Old 8th July 2019, 16:15   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Just wanted to share a very relevant discussion here, in case it helps anyone - link (The Downside of High-End Audio Installs).

Hope your issues are fixed soon !
haha I wish I had gone through your thread a month earlier, would have saved money & time and more importantly also those wiring stuff..

my ICE upgrade has been so disappointing, I am now seriously considering going back to complete stock again and just retain damping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saurabh2711 View Post
Hi,
If i understand the issue correct, you have echo of high frequency and unnecessary boost to bass and mid-bass.
correct this is exactly whats happening, due to this I feel the complete output and sound quality is spoiled.

Quote:
Disconnect the speakers and play them individually if the noise exists by keeping a keen eye on polarity and probably new set of wires. If the sound disappears, you have issues with polarity or wiring.
Ignore if done already.
Installer says all polarity checks are done, he has a device and he checks the polarity on that device

but again I dont how sure they are :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000rpm View Post
You can record the sound and put it here for experts to analyze.
yes will try yo record a audio clip & share here..


Quote:
Have you tried playing sound from multiple sources - USB, Bluetooth, Aux, CD. Does the problem continue with all sources?
yes tried Bluetooth, USB, Car Play, Andriod auto, its same on all the sources

Quote:
Are you sure that this is not due to resonance?
what do u mean by resonance ? can u explain pls

Last edited by Aditya : 8th July 2019 at 16:49. Reason: Back to back posts merged
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Old 8th July 2019, 19:42   #13
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Default Re: ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanasu View Post
correct this is exactly whats happening, due to this I feel the complete output and sound quality is spoiled.

Installer says all polarity checks are done, he has a device and he checks the polarity on that device

but again I dont how sure they are :(
ls
In that case my best guess is, your speakers are getting power from only positive or only negative poles/terminals from your HU. Or there is a goof up after Amp.

To prove this, Do a simple DIY with any home theatre at home, which has + & - marked at its speaker outputs. You need a free speaker to test this. Connect the wire to both positives and listen to the output. It will be exactly the same as what you are hearing in your car. If you can do this with two speakers, connect the second speaker to both negatives. Same output with enhanced disturbances.

I used to do this, with my Delhi made home stereo, with local speakers kept upside down on a matka(earthen pot to store water in summers). Boy that gave some output thump.

If you are able to replicate the above, problem definately is with incorrect polarity. All you have to find out is which section of wiring is at fault: HU to Amp or Amp to speakers.

Now what you are looking for and ideal scenario is, one positive and one negative in each speakers. You may have to get it fixed. Additionally if you take positive and negative from different channels, it will kill the stereo output and it will be more of mono. Be careful of that.

Hope this helps. Sincere Apologies if this does not solves your problem.

I wished you were in pune, I would have loved to get my hands dirty to investigate and fix this.
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Old 8th July 2019, 20:22   #14
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Default Re: ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

Quote:
Originally Posted by saurabh2711 View Post
In that case my best guess is, your speakers are getting power from only positive or only negative poles/terminals from your HU. Or there is a goof up after Amp.

To prove this, Do a simple DIY with any home theatre at home, which has + & - marked at its speaker outputs. You need a free speaker to test this. Connect the wire to both positives and listen to the output. It will be exactly the same as what you are hearing in your car. If you can do this with two speakers, connect the second speaker to both negatives. Same output with enhanced disturbances.

If you are able to replicate the above, problem definately is with incorrect polarity. All you have to find out is which section of wiring is at fault: HU to Amp or Amp to speakers.

Now what you are looking for and ideal scenario is, one positive and one negative in each speakers. You may have to get it fixed. Additionally if you take positive and negative from different channels, it will kill the stereo output and it will be more of mono. Be careful of that.
TBHPian Vid6639 (Vidyut) also suspects the same, he was particular about proper polarity checks last time when we met, but after that I went to a reputed installer and trusted them to take care of all these aspects..

anyways thanks for your valuable inputs, I shall sure get this verified, I am suspecting its the wiring from the Amp to speakers that could be the culprit.

Also I have attached below, audio clips of two songs which I recorded in my car, pretty much gives the clear picture about the current audio output in my car.. (both the clips I had the Sub woofer turned off)

Clip.zip
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:24   #15
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Default Re: ICE upgrade gone completely wrong - A frustrating experience! Need help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanasu View Post
I have a long frustrating ICE upgrade story to share
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanasu View Post
Sorry Kanasu I was travelling. Vid6639 Whatsapped me today to look at this thread urgently so here I am.

First: When you have a problem go back to basics. Forget the amplifier and subwoofer for now. On your HU turn off all EQ, HPF, LPF, etc. Connect the 4 speakers to your HU via the speaker output terminals. Is the sound clear? The clips you have posted sound badly EQed where it is all bass and the middle is suppressed. Do NOT EQ the music. Use a known music source that is well recorded and contains information across the audio range. Try and use simple acoustic music that has well presented vocals. American folk music or acapella is well suited for this.

Second: Once you do this and are satisfied with the non-amplified sound add any 4 channel amplifier with no HPF or LPF on. Do NOT use the SONY. Check the sound with the HU and a 4 channel amplifier.

Third: Once you are satisfied with this then add your subwoofer and Sony in 6 channel mode. I believe you are already familiar with the thread discussing this Sony DSP Amplifier.

Your setting should be "LPF, BPF and HPF ON 6 Channel Mode without any Time Alignment. Front channel (1-2) is used for tweeter, Rear Channel (3-4) is used for Midrange and Subwoofer channel (5-6) is used in stereo mode for woofer."
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/car-e...version-7.html (Upgrading your OEM Car Audio using DSPs (budget version))
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