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13th March 2007, 02:03 | #1 |
BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Chandigarh
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| M800 - Mid-Budget ICE Upgrade (Re-Do) History: 3 years ago, I bought a M800 (my first car). A few months after that, I was taken to a shop and we bought seat covers & such stuff. I was asked to install an ICE and trusting the guy, I did. What I got for about 11k then was a Sony CDX-3300 with (probably) fake Xplods pair mounted on a plate behind the rear seat and two god-knows-what-company in the stock locations in the dash, and two 1" tweeters on the dash on either side. Wasn't driving the car that much then so I didn't notice what a lame system it is till last year when I actually started driving it. Things to keep in mind while reading all this:
After a little reading up, I was able to impress upon the dealer that I don't want the Chinese or desi stuff and in discussion, he's recommend that I rip out whatever I have right now and put in this:
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13th March 2007, 08:20 | #2 | |
Team-BHP Support | Welcome to team-bhp woodenknight. Your on the right track although I'd recommend a few different stuff compared to the stuff you have. I would suggest you have a look here firstly: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...k-25k-30k.html I'll try answering your questions as well. I'll try an keep the budget within 20-30K. My answers are in bold below: Quote:
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13th March 2007, 09:36 | #3 | |
Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai
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I would first spend 4K on damping the doors and consider getting a 5" component upfront. the woofer can goin the door with a spacer and the tweeter can going the stock location. a ^' component might not fit even witha regualr spacer. With a double spacer the 6" component will fit but it might protude too much into the cabin and look ugly. HU: Pio 6950 for 8K without Bill or Warranty or Blaupunkt with B&W for 9K Amp: Pio 6100 for 7K without B&W or JBL 60.4 for 9-10K with B&W. Speakers: Front 5" components: 6K, Rear 6" coax 4K. do consider listening to other brands as well as JBL. Also JBL makes a CS series of speakers that can save you some money over the GTO series. Sub: Pio 306C in sealed box 4K or JBL GT4-12 in sealed box 5.5K Wiring: Audion makes interconnects for 1K each you will need 2 pairs - 2K Power cable: Finolex/Polycab 4 SWG will more than suffice for the single amp you can get that for less than 2K or spend 3K on the original JBL wiring kit. There are a lot of fakes floating in this market, JBL speakers, wiring kits, Pio Head units, Alpine amps, etc...you name it there is a fake. So please find a reliable dealer and get Bills and Manufacturers Warranty for all you can (Pio equipment can also be got with B&W but the prices are significantly higher). Lastly if you are buying all this equipment from your installer they shoudl offer you a free install. I wold ask for free wires as well and if they say yes then ask for which brand. Most likely they will not mention Audison, Monster (again there is a lot of fake Monster in the market), Twister but might mention BOSS. At that point tell them yo have heard a few horror stories about BOSS so will pay for a wire upgrade (say 1K for 2 pairs of Audison or 1.5K for Monster). Same with the power wires. Let your installer make some moeny on the commisions of the equipment but dont be a bakra. The idea is to negotiate so that at the end you get a good job done (an installer who is not making a profit will not do a good job) and earn the respect of the installer (by not being a bakra). | |
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13th March 2007, 11:17 | #4 |
Senior - BHPian | I think vid6639 & Navin have covered nearly everything The two main issues you'll have trouble with (in the M800) will be (1) install depth of speakers in the door, and (2) body-panel vibration. The vibration can be fixed with some damping. For the speakers, you'll definitely have to go for 5.25" comps/co-axials to minimise intrusion into the cabin. Installs with the speakers jutting out into the cabin a lot will run into some trouble or the other (from careless passengers) sooner or later. I'd suggest that you take a look at the flatter type of speakers that don't need much depth for the install. Blaupunkt's OD series or TS series speakers have about the least install depth I've seen, in your price range. For eg: the THx132 & the ODx132 (both 5" coaxials) have an install depth of just 43mm. The THx172 & the ODx172 (both 6.5" coaxials) have an install depth of just 46mm & 45mm respectively. If you add a really thin spacer, there will be no problem at all with the install. The OD series is priced higher than the TS series. If you go for either of these, you will be able to fit even 6.5" speakers in front with about the same or even lesser protrusion into the cabin (space is really at a premium in an 800) as a regular 5.25" speaker. [Not that you really need 6.5" in front in a M800. 5.25" or 5" will really do fine.] But do listen to them before you buy them. Unless you like the way they sound, no sense in getting them just for the convenience. There maybe other brands also with thin speakers (Pio does have such a range), but I don't think there are any available with B&W in India to beat the price range of the TS series. Last edited by hydrashok : 13th March 2007 at 11:20. |
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13th March 2007, 14:09 | #5 |
BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Chandigarh
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| Thanks for the advice though I am sorely missing that reassurance I would have got from Sam had he commented too. 1. Regarding HU Thanks for alerting me vid6639. I'll probably go in for Pioneer 6950 now. I just hope the inbuilt filters are worthy because that's the only reason I'm upgrading the HU. Comments? 2. Regarding Amp I'm favouring JBL 60.4 (esp. since both vid6639 and navin think it's a good idea) though I will compare it with Pioneer 6100 before I say "This is it" finally on installation. 3. Speakers I was mistaken on this - both price and number of speakers. The guy has only suggested JBL GTO-937 coaxial for rear and says I don't need a pair up front because the rear will drive it well enough. The problem is that M800 has only a 4" install space in the dashboard (toward the outer ends, pointing angled-down toward the bottom of the front seats) so components or any other bigger quality speakers won't probably fit anyway. I don't want to hack the doors and install speakers there (I'm not there yet in my drive to customise/upgrade my M800). What he did suggest was that I give the rear coaxials a listen and add a decent tweeter pair up front if I really feel the need for it. Now that's what he says and I'm not sure I agree with this for I do know that only having rear speakers will give me sort of directional sound from back with a perceptible in a something-is-wrong-but-i-don't-know-what distortion of sound within the cabin but I could be wrong of course, being a a noob and all. hehehe. So I'm confused here right now. Maybe the JBL GTO-427 as suggested by vid6639 will make sense... I'll listen and decide. 3.1 Damping I hadn't thought of this till navin mentioned it. But given that I won't have any speakers installed in the doors, this is something that I perhaps would add later into the mix. Or does adding the damping to doors really help improve the sound? Even for a shell-car like M800? I'm guessing more so given the tendency for the sheets to vibrate in loud noise and low frequencies generated by the SW. 4. Subwoofer I'm leaning toward JBL GT4-12 as suggested by both vid6639 and navin though like the amp, I'll try out the Pioneer 306 too before committing. 5. Tweeters Dropping them as advised. If things go crazy, I'll probably add a JBL set just to make it a complete JBL audio thingy. 6. Wiring My dealer had initially mentioned BOSS but once I told him I wasn't very keen on BOSS, he suggested I buy GLIDER wiring for 1.6k instead which according to him uses original MONSTER components. When I mentioned AUZZO and AUDISON (though I think I pronounced it AUDION at the time), he retorted back that they were cheap chinese stuff that he gives them to those who want to save money and don't care about quality. JBL is also available and it's for 1.4k. I think I'll stick with JBL though uninformed reflexes make me want to go for GLIDER -- the only reason I'm stopping is because I'm trusting JBL and haven't heard of GLIDER anywhere -- even here on team-bhp which is India-centric. 7. Additional Stuff RCA lead (400), Woofer Box (800), Speaker boxes (300), Woofer grill & socket (100). So the total set-up is costing me exactly 29k as of now without the 4" speakers. |
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13th March 2007, 15:28 | #6 | |
Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai
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b) Just a thought, since you are including a sub why use 6x9 (937s) why not 6" coax. The sub is managing the bass anyways. You will find that you will like to have some speakers upfront if you want the music to image right. In fact you will find that you will like to have the biggest speakers you can afford (money and space) in the front to move the image of the music in front of you rather than behind you. JBL makes CS series speakers that are more affordable than their GTO series so that is an option you can consider. c) sheel cars need more damping than big heavy cars like Octavias and Audis. d) PM Gunbir for Audison. Gunbir is a member here and represents Audison, ID, Hertz etc.. e) Rs. 400 for RCA lead is not enoygh. You should budget Rs. 1000 per pair of RCAs. | |
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23rd March 2007, 01:20 | #7 |
BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Chandigarh
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| One of my older speakers died so I had to go in for an emergency upgrade and I simply went and had this installed:
Of everything, I suppose #4 was a bad buy since like navin said, I should probably have gone for coaxials instead but I got confused about that. I got told by 4-5 people that I should not put coaxial speakers on an amp and I wanted rear speakers on amp and GTO-937 was a safe bet. I've driven about 600-650 km since then in about 3-4 days so you can understand my emergency. ;-) BTW, I didn't get any damping done and the car decidedly vibrates (like the rear view shaking to every thump) but it does not create any sound from the vibration. I'm not sure if I should get damping done. The guy said damping is going to cost like 500 bucks to maybe 1k so I'm not even sure he knows what I'm talking about since I'm under the impression it's supposed to cost around 3-4k. Now the questions:
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23rd March 2007, 02:31 | #8 |
Senior - BHPian | phew! whataaa post! never hurry berry if you want a nice ICE setup and seems you even went to a bad installer who 'cut' wires for $%^&*( 1) should have gone for compos for frnt 2) a sub in a box 3) one 4 channel amp 4) 2 pair of RCA 5) could have used speakers wires that came with the speakers 6) some nice power cable/wires if you had done this way, you would have been happy for sure and rear could have been added later. |
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23rd March 2007, 03:01 | #9 | ||
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There are no 4" compos and M800 only allows 4" speakers in the dashboard. Anything other than that would need custom box. That's what I'm asking about now on how to do -- put in 'front' sound. That's what I have. JBL GT4-12 is in a custom box in the rear. Got that too. JBL CS60.4 is a 4 channel amp. This I don't know for sure. I think we used a single pair of RCA cables that come with the JBL wiring kit and then used Glider gold-plated Y-cables at the amp end. This is where my inexperience shows. I did not know speakers came with wires. The guy was decent though and might have used them without me knowing it. I simply don't know what wires have been used and I know at least at one place where they used desi wires -- I think it was that remote wire that turns the amp on and off (not the power cable itself). I used a JBL wiring kit. It is nice IMHO. Quote:
Another thing to consider is that my JBL GT4-12 subwoofer is currently not being properly driven by the JBL CS60.4 which has an output of 60 watts RMS x 4 channel at 4 ohms which when crossed and fed to my subwoofer is about half of it's rated power handling of 250 Watts RMS though for a small car like M800, it's more than sufficient and is giving me a nice flutter in my innards on a reasonably high volume. So perhaps I should get a JBL GTO301.1 for the subwoofer and feed my fronts with the 2 channels from JBL CS60.4? My maths could be all wonky of course and the subwoofer could be an ideal match for the output from the amp too so correct me if I'm wrong here. | ||
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23rd March 2007, 08:14 | #10 | |
Senior - BHPian | @ Woodenknight, you've definitely taken some effort to explain the problem As I see it, you have good equipment in there. So relax on that front. And except for the speaker wires, you seem to be ok with cabling too. Speaker wires can be fixed without much expense, so don't worry about that. Y-connector: Your HU probably had only one pre-out and that must be why you needed a Y-connector. Otherwise the installer would definitely have made sure you got another set of RCAs (unless he was out of stock on them). Could you confirm the one pre-out thing? It is important, as if there is only one pre-out, you won't have the fader facility from the HU, and the front-rear balance will have to be set properly at the amp end. Quote:
Now, to answer your questions: 1. Yes. Coaxials can go on amps. Absolutely nothing wrong with co-axials being fed by amps. In fact most of us have coaxials being fed by amps (at least in the back). 2. The sound is coming from the back with absolutely no front image as you have nothing installed in front. Even the 4" coaxes in the dash will make a big difference. Kicker has 4" comps but they are apparently hard to find. Go for the GTO 4" coaxes and power them from the amp. Power the sub from the other two channels (and not the 6x9s). Right now, all the sound coming from the back is amped, so there is no way you'll get any front image. Run the 6x9s off the HU. Find out at what frequency the output to the sub is crossed over at. Anything higher than 80Hz will cause the bass to be pulled back. I personally prefer the sub to be crossed over at 63Hz. This will make the sound non-directional (and more enveloping). Try it out and see if it rings your bell. What kind of box is the sub in? Sealed or ported? A 60.4 amp will not be able to drive the GT4-12 in a sealed box well enough. A ported box will be fine with the 60.4. Can you post a pic of the box? Yes. You should go for coaxials in front. But you don't need additional tweeters. (The GTO17t are not needed in addition to the co-axials). 3. It is a good thing is that your car isn't rattling (at least for now). If no rattles can be heard, you're fine. The RVM will vibrate like mad with a good sub. With a good 12" sub in an 800, the RVM should be vibrating like mad. Maybe later when rattles start showing you can do the damping thing. Mono amp: Don't buy a mono now. Get front coaxials and see how the sound improves. Check the sub-box and the crossover/filter setting for the sub in the amp. I think if you fix these, the sound should improve. Another looooong post. I hope you read all of it (I couldn't read it again myself ). Last edited by hydrashok : 23rd March 2007 at 08:18. | |
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23rd March 2007, 10:01 | #11 | |
Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai
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b) Damping rattles are not the only use for Sound damping material. Keeping road nosie out is another. Besides some rattles cant be clearly heard (but their absense is noticed). For example when the inside panle of the front door resonates. This is why I would recommend damping material on the front doors (if youhave your speakers there) and under the carpeting of the car. | |
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23rd March 2007, 19:27 | #12 |
Senior - BHPian | hey nice setup you got there Mr. Wood |
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27th March 2007, 23:33 | #13 | ||||||
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Before I got this equipment plugged in, I could use the HU to dictate the front-rear balance. I have no idea what this means in the current context but I hope it helps. Quote:
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It's too high for M800 and doesn't let me close the boot door close properly. It's just not nicely made. I'm hoping to get it changed from Delhi (see below). Quote:
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I wasn't able to find anybody who was even aware of what 'damping' means other than this guy and he recommended using wool carpeting (no wonder it was only costing 1k). Recommendations on who I should go to who can do the whole deal -- damping and re-installation of the audio equipment + add/configure front sound? @Navin: Thanks for the clarifications and additional input. @low_Bass_makker: Thanks! Here's two more pics to look at how the set up looks: Nothing great for most of you guys but I'm excited about it nevertheless. | ||||||
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28th March 2007, 09:35 | #14 |
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You cant call that ported son. A port would be a tube (circurlar or rectangular in crosssection). I dont see a tube just a vent. You are very correct in changing your installer. On Saturday I had the opportunity to witness how bad these "pappus" (that is what the owner of the car caled his installer) can get. Untill then I lived in bliss that all installers were like mine. Believe me I cired then did not sleep all night and we are now taking the poor car to a good installer today. Bad installers should be shot, Elf has a 12 bore and is willing to do the needful. :-) |
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28th March 2007, 10:48 | #15 |
Senior - BHPian | Navin Ji is right....the enclosure is made incorrect....there should be a port at the side ....but it can be a pipe or a square shape also...here is a pic of such enclosure.....taken from kicker.... |
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