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-   -   Amplifier performace at different Volts. (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/car-entertainment/33706-amplifier-performace-different-volts-2.html)

low_bass_makker 2nd January 2008 12:25

Hmmm my favorite topic. I once got banned for it also and I still dont know till date how they did that... anyyways.

Like Tanveer and Delarte has said voltage are like this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAlte (Post 673885)
Slight correction:
12.6-12.8 : Engine turned off, only battery
13.1-13.6 : Engine running, electrical accessories running, battery charging
14.4 : Engine running, over-rated alternator + regulator, no other electrical accessories running (except ICE) and battery fully charged

Battery is 12V NOMINAL; does not mean voltage at the terminals cannot be more.

So in the real world the amp must be rated at 12 volts not 14.4 volts. The CEA standard recommends 14.4volts but in the real life situation 12 volts it is.

So when ever buying a amp check out the 12 volts rating. not the 14.4 unless you are upgrading your electrical system.

I would like to add some thing here that the STEG are rated 11 volts not even 12 and never 14.4 and the main reason to buy them was this.

Steg

So choose your amp wisely.

Ok now about 16 volts setups. Like Del bahi has suggested that can be very much possible but one will have to put and additional alternator to power the Amps. It can give out 16 volts and the whole amp circuit will be isolated from rest of the car electricals. For this the amps are special one...like this one...

:: Ground Zero :: Amplifier / GZPA 1.10000spl

It can take upto 18 volts. And for powering it one can use these 9 battries in series to give out the power to run this beast which can give 11000 watts rms.

:: Ground Zero :: Batterien / GZBP 2.6000

Now the question arise what do you want. How long do you plan to play ? If for few second then put additional batteries so that the voltage dip is reduced to some extend, but make sure you give enough of time to keep them charged.

amit_sound 2nd January 2008 12:39

Nice info guys....

BTW as i said i have no intension to go over board with the Volts. It just a question that popped up and i felt that it worth getting more info on the same. Such info is always beneficial for ICE lovers and me.

No doubt that STEG is a beautiful amp to have.

clipto333 2nd January 2008 13:28

and your system will be marginally loud with an addition of 500w. it wont be that noticable IMO.

even i thought of mounting another alternator with a seperate battery cause my lights used to dim alot. but then i upgraded the power cables to 25mm^2. every thing is good now and with the engine running, the voltage remains between 13.5-13.8v with every damn thing running. i will check again though. im gonna upgrade the main power cables of the electrical system(the big 3) soon.

low_bass_makker 2nd January 2008 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by clipto333 (Post 674266)
and your system will be marginally loud with an addition of 500w. it wont be that noticable IMO.

I think it will make a little difference and will be easily measured by a SPL meter.

clipto333 2nd January 2008 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker (Post 674282)
I think it will make a little difference and will be easily measured by a SPL meter.


i wasn't talking about the electronic spl meter but pure leather meter. our ears. lol

what will be the difference in terms of decibels? less than 1 db? let me know

sgiitk 2nd January 2008 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by amit_sound (Post 673995)
Fine... but what if i want to go upto 16.6 V....just a question, not my intension

Guys have bench tested the amp, and as said above it draw 2700 RMS @ 14.4 V, and 3200 RMS @ 16.6 V. So how can car electrical be pulled up to 16.6 V then?

Any attempt to charge at above 13.x volts will dramatically reduce the battery life due to severe over charging. :)

So you have two alternatives - use a separate generator (alternator or whatever) to get your 16.6V or use a dc to dc converter. I would suggest the latter, but whether you will get one for 16.6 is not known. You may have to settle for 15 or 18.

clipto333 2nd January 2008 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgiitk (Post 674312)
Any attempt to charge at above 13.x volts will dramatically reduce the battery life due to severe over charging. :)

So you have two alternatives - use a separate generator (alternator or whatever) to get your 16.6V or use a dc to dc converter. I would suggest the latter, but whether you will get one for 16.6 is not known. You may have to settle for 15 or 18.

a dc-dc convertor will be quite expensive considering the power requirements of the amp. its like using an amplifier to power an amplifier. a second alternator regulated at 16v would be a better option.

car manufacturers are already in the process of upgrading the charging system to 42v nominal. i think that will be good. but it will really complicate things for a diyer.

cheers

low_bass_makker 2nd January 2008 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by clipto333 (Post 674304)
i wasn't talking about the electronic spl meter but pure leather meter. our ears. lol

what will be the difference in terms of decibels? less than 1 db? let me know

I would put it as tympanic membrane not leather ( leather means processed skin)

In terms of db from 2000-to-2500 the db change will be 1 db change. and 1 db is quite easily observed by human ear or tympanic membrane

sgiitk 2nd January 2008 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by clipto333 (Post 674330)
a dc-dc convertor will be quite expensive considering the power requirements of the amp. its like using an amplifier to power an amplifier. a second alternator regulated at 16v would be a better option.

You will still need a storage. So we will have a battery with say 7 or 8 cells!


Quote:

Originally Posted by clipto333 (Post 674330)
car manufacturers are already in the process of upgrading the charging system to 42v nominal. i think that will be good. but it will really complicate things for a diyer.


This has been bandied around for quite some time. The idea is to switch to thinner wiring, and also feed the increasingly power hungry accessories. The cost savings led to trucks going 24V. However, 42V means all auto electrics has to change. New batteries, new alternators, new everything.

clipto333 2nd January 2008 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker (Post 674342)
I would put it as tympanic membrane not leather ( leather means processed skin)

In terms of db from 2000-to-2500 the db change will be 1 db change. and 1 db is quite easily observed by human ear or tympanic membrane

what ever membrane lol.

in this case, its 2700 to 3200w. so its less than 1 dB. would you invest in a separate charging system for less than 1 dB gain in output?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgiitk (Post 674381)
You will still need a storage. So we will have a battery with say 7 or 8 cells!



This has been bandied around for quite some time. The idea is to switch to thinner wiring, and also feed the increasingly power hungry accessories. The cost savings led to trucks going 24V. However, 42V means all auto electrics has to change. New batteries, new alternators, new everything.


yeah, storage will be a problem. but there should be battries rated at 16 or 8v.

i think it will have dual outputs. for low power devices it will have 12v. and high power will be 42.

with the power hungry electronic stuff this is a good thing to do. there is no other option i guess.

cheers
clip

low_bass_makker 2nd January 2008 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by clipto333 (Post 674525)
what ever membrane lol.

in this case, its 2700 to 3200w. so its less than 1 dB. would you invest in a separate charging system for less than 1 dB gain in output?


yeah, storage will be a problem. but there should be battries rated at 16 or 8v.

i think it will have dual outputs. for low power devices it will have 12v. and high power will be 42.

with the power hungry electronic stuff this is a good thing to do. there is no other option i guess.


Sir If I am competing in a SPL competition I would defiantly invest to extract max from my setup because each DB counts.

Sir I also seriously doubt the 42 volts setup. I think it will be either 24 volts or 48 volts because of the standard batteries available in the market and not 42 volts.

sgiitk 2nd January 2008 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by clipto333 (Post 674525)
yeah, storage will be a problem. but there should be battries rated at 16 or 8v.

Lead Acid batteries are 2V nominal (2.2 actual) per cell. So 16V = 8/7 cells, 18V = 9/8 cells depending on whether your unit can handle voltages higher than the nominal voltages. Popular battery ratings are 6 and 12V. This is why trucks have 2 x 12V. So you will either have to stack/add single cells or use three 6V units. This does not look too good to me. .

DerAlte 2nd January 2008 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgiitk (Post 674607)
Lead Acid batteries are 2V nominal (2.2 actual) per cell. So 16V = 8/7 cells, 18V = 9/8 cells depending on whether your unit can handle voltages higher than the nominal voltages. Popular battery ratings are 6 and 12V. This is why trucks have 2 x 12V. So you will either have to stack/add single cells or use three 6V units. This does not look too good to me. .

Wouldn't raising the ground end of the battery (zener / reversed diodes) be simpler than making a custom battery for getting >16V on the PS line?

* The battery is only being used for regulation and off-line power, not main power source - Amit's application needs (3.2 / 0.6) KW!!!
* The relatively slightly lesser power store (6 cells) will not substantially affect the application - the battery will discharge in 23 minutes instead of 29 (assuming 1 battery of 130AH; ICE running totally off the battery)
* Anyhow, this is a theoretical exercise :p (Amit has already mentioned he is not really doing it, he only wants to know)

The issue here is not of redesigning the system, but extracting "the last drop" from the standard system for competitive purposes, as LBM had put it. The same Olympic (doping) rules should apply.

IMHO Amit will not be satisfied even if the electricals were to change to 24V (as we have been expecting to happen for the last couple of years) or 48V. It is just that then he will talk about raising the bar to 33.2V, then 66.4V, so on and so forth... there is no end to human desire :D

Lage raho, Amit-bhai!

amit_sound 2nd January 2008 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker (Post 674554)
Sir If I am competing in a SPL competition I would defiantly invest to extract max from my setup because each DB counts.

agree:

if SPL it is....then every db counts. If i hit 150 db.....i would not mind investing 20k to go to 151 db.

Love for SPL u see.

panky12345 4th January 2008 16:43

achha one thing more.... is there a standard to determine how the amp would behave (read output) at different volts. Like I have an amp which is 230 W @ 2 ohms @ 14.4V then ??? W @ 2ohms @ 12V?


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