WagonR - Peculiar Requirement

pt7 · 24th June 2008, 21:52

Disclaimer: I did go through a lot of posts (on ICE for WagonR) etc before posting this. Though a lot of material is covered in those posts; I am still posting this as I have a little peculiar requirement ( i used to consider myself an audiofile (duh!!!) for HTS and HoemAudio but Car audio is new field for me.. Also - Apologies for a little longer post - but hoping to have 'sound advice' for me.)

First things first - I own new WagonR - which is about to go through 3rd service - No ICE currently installed.

Here are my requirements:

1 - Speaker Requirements: I do not want modifications / cuts and letting go off my boot space - which is already in half due to LPG effect. So no rear speakers for me. Which makes front speakers critical. I need good bass with full spectrum (I view 20-20000Hz rather suspiciously as all companies do seem to claim it.. I have rarely come across something that throws bass as smoothly as high frequencies)
2 - Sound habit : A lot of Rock / Heavy Metal / Some Popular stuff and occassionally Dance/Bhangra. Most importantly - I do not need heavy Boom. I would rather go for a full spectrum with decent amount of Bass. Preference for sound details over loudness
3 - HU Requirements: CD, MP3, AUX, USB and IPOD ports necessary (Although I can work around IPOD/USB and use AUX if high cost difference). Again I would need something that would deliver a good range - clarity. I can forget about a lot of 'Preset' equalizers / Loudness effects. Also a good S/N ratio is a must (I did give a warning of being an audiofile)
4 - Misc: I need good pair of cables to ensure that effort put in by good HU and speakers is not lost in transmission!!! Also (And here is my weak link) throw in dampners (if needed) / other accessories that are essential for me...
5 - Budgetary Requirements (or Constraints): 15k to 20k is the budget

Here are my questions:

1 - Recommendations on the set. No problem with mix and match. What would be best setup of HU / Speakers / Cables in the budget that deliver good clarity and decent bass?
2 - (Dumb question) Will only 2 front speakers be sufficient for good sound field? I mean will it be adequate (Like i mentioned i dont need loudness - but it should also not sound too low)
3 - Since I need only 2 front speakers (and in forseeable future i dont intend to put in rear speakers / amps) would my HU be the same (All HUs I have seen deliver 4 channel sound - are there any HUs more suitable for 2 Channel output?)
4 - I dont mind investing in good front speakers - what are best options for 4 inch front speakers - considering that these are THE ONLY speakers in car? I saw a lot of posts admiring Illusion - are there any better choices considering that I can put in approx 8-10k for front speakers?
5 - (I am being greedy here) but if i were to stretch my budget by 5K (upto 22 to 25K) do I get any major upgrade for the same config i want (2 front+HU+Cable)

Thanks in advance for your assistance!!!
Regards
PT

cooldude1988765 · 25th June 2008, 11:08

I seriously doubt you would be able to get 4 inch speakers to give you audiophile (or for that matter good sound stage). The bass will be lacking and if the new wagon R also has the same stock speaker locations as the old one i highly doubt if you can get what you are looking for. You have to cut your front door panels to accommodate 6 inch components. Or you could probably get an 8 inch sub under the front seat and set it to play low frequencies annd HP the front speakers. i beleive blau has an 8inch sub that can go under the front seat. Wait till the gurus give their verdict.

navin · 25th June 2008, 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by pt7

...
Budgetary Requirements (or Constraints): 15k to 20k is the budget
(Dumb question) Will only 2 front speakers be sufficient for good sound field? I dont mind investing in good front speakers - what are best options

with only a pair of 4" components in the front your system will be terribly short of bass. bass will start rolling of in the region of 150hz. to produce bass you need to move air. lots of air.

pt7 · 25th June 2008, 17:46

Illusion website mentions that 4 inch Component has RMS power of 35Watts - wont that be sufficient? I mean - anyway any HU max power output is 4X50 RMS only...

St. Anger · 25th June 2008, 21:44

Given your requirements, i have serious doubts over using just 4'' speakers.
There is a WagonR thread on the forum where 6*9'' coaxials were fitted on the rear quarter glass, thereby achieving the objective of preserving boot space. What that does to the harmonics is unknown to me though.

Alternatively, there is a Swift-Polk Audio install where a sub was fitted in the central space below the dashboard. Maybe something similar could be worked out for you.
Or, as @cooldude1988765 has said you'll have to go the 'under-the-seat' sub way.

Awaiting the Experts to give their inputs.

adityamunshi · 25th June 2008, 21:46

Have you listened to 4" and 6.5 " Components separately ?

Once you do that, you'll realize the difference a larger speaker makes to the sound. IMO, you should get 6.5" speakers installed in the front doors from a good installer.
The improvement in sound output will be well worth the compromise.

DerAlte · 25th June 2008, 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by pt7

Illusion website mentions that 4 inch Component has RMS power of 35Watts - wont that be sufficient? I mean - anyway any HU max power output is 4X50 RMS only...

MAX power can be 4x50W, but not RMS - which is usually 4x18W.

greenhorn · 25th June 2008, 22:34

a friend of mine had the 6x9's installed on the rear hatch door. sound was okay

navin · 26th June 2008, 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenhorn

a friend of mine had the 6x9's installed on the rear hatch door. sound was okay

The rear hatch door does not have the volume to support a 6x9 properly. The bass would be a bit shy.

BaCkSeAtDrIVeR · 26th June 2008, 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by navin

The rear hatch door does not have the volume to support a 6x9 properly. The bass would be a bit shy.

Mind explaining the "does not have the volume" part? I have a 4050 driving 6x9 (described elsewhere on this forum - I think the "new pioneer HUs" thread) on a WagonR, and I am quite happy - but my tastes are Old film, Indian classical - Did anybody say yuck!!! ??

The 6x9 pioneer oval is mounted on a cloth covered MDF board on the rear hatch.

kaushykutti · 27th June 2008, 14:50

What Navin meant was, there won't be enough room behind and around the 6x9 speakers on a hatch door. And they won't be able to produce sound in their best quality. It's a compromise one has to make to save up on boot space.

Volume=Room (lxbxh)

There should be enough space behind the speakers to permit them to produce quality sound waves.

You need not listen to rock and metal to notice the difference of sound quality in your setup. You would be able to find a difference even in the depth of vocals.

It's not too bad by the way. And am planning to install my 6x9s on the hatch door too. Still planning...

pt7 · 27th June 2008, 23:39

HI All

Following are the prices of Alpine quoted in Chennai - are these prices okay or am I being fleeced?

Without Bill & Warranty:
9887 - 18k
9886 - 16k
9884 - 12.5 k

With Bill and Warranty:
9887 - 21990
9886 - 16590
9884 - 13690

The guy promised some discount on top of this - I assume it to be in range of 10%

Also - what are the major differences between these 3 systems? Which ones would guruz suggest?

**** Above from another post on prices of HU Thread***

Can Guru's throw light on the following question:

1 - Only 9887 model has imprint inbuilt - the other 2 models 9884 and 9886 do not - does that mean that the these 2 models do not have any sound processors / equalizers / filters / sound manipulation inbuilt?
2 - Why is Alpine lowest cost (9884 model for 12.5k) is at least 50% more costlier than Pioneer hgih end model (6050 model for 8500)? What is so earthshattering difference between these systems? Or is it just premium pricing without any substance?

i also found out following prices - I would seek guru's advice on this whether these are okay or not?

1 - 4inch component from Eclipse (I dont know model details) for 5k - how is this model? Is this reliable?
2 - Polk Audio 6X9 coaxial for 4500 (DB691) - anyone having reviewd this one?
3 - Here is the most suprising part: A gray market dealer told me that Alpine 6X9 for 10.5k (Again dont know model#). WHile Alpine distributor guy told me prices of 3990 for SP69C3 and 5150 for SPS69C3 (SPS69C2 for 4650) = anyone having reviewed these ones?
4 - Finally BOSTON RALLY RC420 for 10.5k - anyone?

DerAlte · 28th June 2008, 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by pt7

Following are the prices of Alpine quoted in Chennai - are these prices okay or am I being fleeced?

Decent prices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pt7

... Also - what are the major differences between these 3 systems? Which ones would guruz suggest?

Depends on what you want. Check this link for the comparison of these models.

9887 has built-in Time Correction, to align the output of the tweeter, mid and sub so that one gets a homogenous sound image. The "Time Correction Ready" against 9886 and 9884 indicate that TC is not built-in and the PXA-H100 processor is required externally to do that. So if you need TC, 9887 is the way to go, else 9886 or 9884 will do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pt7

... does that mean that the these 2 models do not have any sound processors / equalizers / filters / sound manipulation inbuilt?

Yes and No. Imprint is the automated way of getting optimum sound (the external software costs US$250 or so). The correction algorithms are internal to 9887, external via the PXA box for the others. Rudimentary equalization is built into all of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pt7

... What is so earthshattering difference between these systems? ...

Difficult to answer, other than saying "better sound from the Alpine". How will you describe the qualitative difference between the shirts of Peter England v/s Van Heusen/Louis Phillipe brands?

Quote:

1 - 4inch component from Eclipse (I dont know model details) for 5k

Haven't found anyone's first-hand experience on TBHP so far. Their HUs are excellent, so one cannot expect the speakers to be bad, if genuine. However, their website mentions only a 4" 2-way coax model SE4000, but not 4" components. Please check the model number offered to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pt7

2 - Polk Audio 6X9 coaxial for 4500 (DB691) - anyone having reviewd this one?

Plenty of comments here - search. Most say "loud" and "bright"

pt7 · 29th June 2008, 21:52

Thanks DerAlte for a very detailed explanation on all the queries - appreciate the effort. I have one question though...

***
From DerALTE: Imprint is the automated way of getting optimum sound (the external software costs US$250 or so). The correction algorithms are internal to 9887, external via the PXA box for the others. Rudimentary equalization is built into all of them.
***

I have checked Alpine's Asia / US both websites. Alpine Asia website does not mention any kind of equilization in 9884 or 9886. US website however mentions that 9884 and 9886 do have Balance, Treble, Balance Center, Treble Center etc adjustments or equilization settings built in.

I am not sure if this is intended or just a miss - in other words, are these features omitted in the versions available in Asia (Inturn India) or these things are there in the set just that website does not mention? Alpine-Asia website do not give any product manual or any other PDFs / feature list given.

Do we have anyone who has bought 9884 or 9886?

SLK · 29th June 2008, 22:42

hmm...

Bass... from the front speakers on the WagonR's light plastic Dash??? I don't think so.

The mounting space available on the wagonR's dash is useless...

For one the speaker doesn't settle down in the space provided very well.

Secondly... the space where the speaker goes is completely open from below. Through and through. You don't really get bass from speakers running in free air.

Thirdly, I think its a waste to put expensive speakers there.... as they are completely exposed to sun at all times and eventually commit suicide.

24th June 2008, 21:52	#1
pt7 BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Chennai Posts: 37 Thanked: 0 Times	WagonR - Peculiar Requirement Disclaimer: I did go through a lot of posts (on ICE for WagonR) etc before posting this. Though a lot of material is covered in those posts; I am still posting this as I have a little peculiar requirement ( i used to consider myself an audiofile (duh!!!) for HTS and HoemAudio but Car audio is new field for me.. Also - Apologies for a little longer post - but hoping to have 'sound advice' for me.) First things first - I own new WagonR - which is about to go through 3rd service - No ICE currently installed. Here are my requirements: 1 - Speaker Requirements: I do not want modifications / cuts and letting go off my boot space - which is already in half due to LPG effect. So no rear speakers for me. Which makes front speakers critical. I need good bass with full spectrum (I view 20-20000Hz rather suspiciously as all companies do seem to claim it.. I have rarely come across something that throws bass as smoothly as high frequencies) 2 - Sound habit : A lot of Rock / Heavy Metal / Some Popular stuff and occassionally Dance/Bhangra. Most importantly - I do not need heavy Boom. I would rather go for a full spectrum with decent amount of Bass. Preference for sound details over loudness 3 - HU Requirements: CD, MP3, AUX, USB and IPOD ports necessary (Although I can work around IPOD/USB and use AUX if high cost difference). Again I would need something that would deliver a good range - clarity. I can forget about a lot of 'Preset' equalizers / Loudness effects. Also a good S/N ratio is a must (I did give a warning of being an audiofile) 4 - Misc: I need good pair of cables to ensure that effort put in by good HU and speakers is not lost in transmission!!! Also (And here is my weak link) throw in dampners (if needed) / other accessories that are essential for me... 5 - Budgetary Requirements (or Constraints): 15k to 20k is the budget Here are my questions: 1 - Recommendations on the set. No problem with mix and match. What would be best setup of HU / Speakers / Cables in the budget that deliver good clarity and decent bass? 2 - (Dumb question) Will only 2 front speakers be sufficient for good sound field? I mean will it be adequate (Like i mentioned i dont need loudness - but it should also not sound too low) 3 - Since I need only 2 front speakers (and in forseeable future i dont intend to put in rear speakers / amps) would my HU be the same (All HUs I have seen deliver 4 channel sound - are there any HUs more suitable for 2 Channel output?) 4 - I dont mind investing in good front speakers - what are best options for 4 inch front speakers - considering that these are THE ONLY speakers in car? I saw a lot of posts admiring Illusion - are there any better choices considering that I can put in approx 8-10k for front speakers? 5 - (I am being greedy here) but if i were to stretch my budget by 5K (upto 22 to 25K) do I get any major upgrade for the same config i want (2 front+HU+Cable) Thanks in advance for your assistance!!! Regards PT
	() Thanks

25th June 2008, 11:08	#2
cooldude1988765 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,055 Thanked: 222 Times	I seriously doubt you would be able to get 4 inch speakers to give you audiophile (or for that matter good sound stage). The bass will be lacking and if the new wagon R also has the same stock speaker locations as the old one i highly doubt if you can get what you are looking for. You have to cut your front door panels to accommodate 6 inch components. Or you could probably get an 8 inch sub under the front seat and set it to play low frequencies annd HP the front speakers. i beleive blau has an 8inch sub that can go under the front seat. Wait till the gurus give their verdict.
	() Thanks

25th June 2008, 17:46	#4
pt7 BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Chennai Posts: 37 Thanked: 0 Times	Illusion website mentions that 4 inch Component has RMS power of 35Watts - wont that be sufficient? I mean - anyway any HU max power output is 4X50 RMS only...
	() Thanks

25th June 2008, 21:44	#5
St. Anger BHPian Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Mumbai Posts: 155 Thanked: 31 Times	Given your requirements, i have serious doubts over using just 4'' speakers. There is a WagonR thread on the forum where 6*9'' coaxials were fitted on the rear quarter glass, thereby achieving the objective of preserving boot space. What that does to the harmonics is unknown to me though. Alternatively, there is a Swift-Polk Audio install where a sub was fitted in the central space below the dashboard. Maybe something similar could be worked out for you. Or, as @cooldude1988765 has said you'll have to go the 'under-the-seat' sub way. Awaiting the Experts to give their inputs.
	() Thanks

25th June 2008, 21:46	#6
adityamunshi BHPian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Baroda Posts: 771 Thanked: 6 Times	Have you listened to 4" and 6.5 " Components separately ? Once you do that, you'll realize the difference a larger speaker makes to the sound. IMO, you should get 6.5" speakers installed in the front doors from a good installer. The improvement in sound output will be well worth the compromise.
	() Thanks

25th June 2008, 22:34	#8
greenhorn Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: KL-01 Posts: 7,878 Thanked: 4,910 Times View My Garage	a friend of mine had the 6x9's installed on the rear hatch door. sound was okay
	() Thanks

27th June 2008, 14:50	#11
kaushykutti Newbie Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Chennai Posts: 20 Thanked: Once	What Navin meant was, there won't be enough room behind and around the 6x9 speakers on a hatch door. And they won't be able to produce sound in their best quality. It's a compromise one has to make to save up on boot space. Volume=Room (lxbxh) There should be enough space behind the speakers to permit them to produce quality sound waves. You need not listen to rock and metal to notice the difference of sound quality in your setup. You would be able to find a difference even in the depth of vocals. It's not too bad by the way. And am planning to install my 6x9s on the hatch door too. Still planning...
	() Thanks

27th June 2008, 23:39	#12
pt7 BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Chennai Posts: 37 Thanked: 0 Times	Update - Found Models and Prices HI All Following are the prices of Alpine quoted in Chennai - are these prices okay or am I being fleeced? Without Bill & Warranty: 9887 - 18k 9886 - 16k 9884 - 12.5 k With Bill and Warranty: 9887 - 21990 9886 - 16590 9884 - 13690 The guy promised some discount on top of this - I assume it to be in range of 10% Also - what are the major differences between these 3 systems? Which ones would guruz suggest? ** Above from another post on prices of HU Thread* Can Guru's throw light on the following question: 1 - Only 9887 model has imprint inbuilt - the other 2 models 9884 and 9886 do not - does that mean that the these 2 models do not have any sound processors / equalizers / filters / sound manipulation inbuilt? 2 - Why is Alpine lowest cost (9884 model for 12.5k) is at least 50% more costlier than Pioneer hgih end model (6050 model for 8500)? What is so earthshattering difference between these systems? Or is it just premium pricing without any substance? i also found out following prices - I would seek guru's advice on this whether these are okay or not? 1 - 4inch component from Eclipse (I dont know model details) for 5k - how is this model? Is this reliable? 2 - Polk Audio 6X9 coaxial for 4500 (DB691) - anyone having reviewd this one? 3 - Here is the most suprising part: A gray market dealer told me that Alpine 6X9 for 10.5k (Again dont know model#). WHile Alpine distributor guy told me prices of 3990 for SP69C3 and 5150 for SPS69C3 (SPS69C2 for 4650) = anyone having reviewed these ones? 4 - Finally BOSTON RALLY RC420 for 10.5k - anyone?
	() Thanks

29th June 2008, 21:52	#14
pt7 BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Chennai Posts: 37 Thanked: 0 Times	Alpine ASIA Website - Inadequate Thanks DerAlte for a very detailed explanation on all the queries - appreciate the effort. I have one question though... * From DerALTE: Imprint is the automated way of getting optimum sound (the external software costs US$250 or so). The correction algorithms are internal to 9887, external via the PXA box for the others. Rudimentary equalization is built into all of them. * I have checked Alpine's Asia / US both websites. Alpine Asia website does not mention any kind of equilization in 9884 or 9886. US website however mentions that 9884 and 9886 do have Balance, Treble, Balance Center, Treble Center etc adjustments or equilization settings built in. I am not sure if this is intended or just a miss - in other words, are these features omitted in the versions available in Asia (Inturn India) or these things are there in the set just that website does not mention? Alpine-Asia website do not give any product manual or any other PDFs / feature list given. Do we have anyone who has bought 9884 or 9886?
	() Thanks

29th June 2008, 22:42	#15
SLK Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Nomad Posts: 1,814 Thanked: 1,440 Times	hmm... Bass... from the front speakers on the WagonR's light plastic Dash??? I don't think so. The mounting space available on the wagonR's dash is useless... For one the speaker doesn't settle down in the space provided very well. Secondly... the space where the speaker goes is completely open from below. Through and through. You don't really get bass from speakers running in free air. Thirdly, I think its a waste to put expensive speakers there.... as they are completely exposed to sun at all times and eventually commit suicide.
	() Thanks