Team-BHP - Speakers: Components vs Coaxials

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid6639 (Post 485946)

Even the price is in between the 60.4 and the 75.4. I guess this will be a limited supply so you should get the amp now before you get your car.

My car plans are getting delayed more and more, so when I buy(its looking like Oct nov, or later) I will pick up something.
So right now it looks like Amp + 4 high quality coax 6" coax in front and very high quality coax at rear(though I would like to have it reversed, but no space for big coax in front)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble (Post 485251)

pair of Celestion 12" full-range coaxial pro-drivers playing everything from 80 Hz to 14-15k, and doing it loud and aggressively, just like your everyday pro driver would..

1. Marshall uses Celestions and just about everyone uses Marshalls.
2. If TSK is interested in this then Eminence or Selenium are good VFM products. Another rare one is the KM30 from PHY-HP.
PHY-HP (Haut parleurs)® - KM 30 SAG

TSK, a pair of 8" woofers will outperform a pair of 6x9 but not by that much. the 6x9 will do for your 50Hz+ use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble (Post 485852)

Since they are available in 8ohms only, he uses it in parallel on a bridged 2-channel amp hence mono. :)

Isn't that strange? If he can willingly compromise on stereo, then he should as well be fine with some other (4ohm) speakers... or else whatever tonal signature that particular speaker creates must be the only thing that counts in his SQ philosophy:p

A query about time alignment in components- I have seen a few compos that provide some kind of phase tuning between woofer and tweeter. For example an advanced tuning feature can be found in Alpine's type-x compos. Refer to this manual: http://vault.alpine-usa.com/products...M_SPX-177R.PDF
It supports a large set of jumper settings to tune phase as well as XO frequency based on distances and angles of woofer/tweeter relative to ear. What do experts think about it? I think it is great and will be very useful in producing accurate sound stage and a nice compliment for HUs supporting time-alignment feature too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by santosh.s (Post 486121)

firstly the above pair cost above 25k. in the above crossover the there is a option of using different slopes but the use of jumpers to match the off-axis response and distance between the tweeter and the midbass. and ya time alignment helps a lot.

I am using a little of time aligment in my car not for the front stage(left and right) but for the sub. I have given a small delay in the output of the front stage so that it comes in full sync of the sub and the front stage and the results are remarkable. the mid bass goes perfectly with the sub. the up front bass is the one of the best I have experienced similar like in the Ajay Bhai palio install which has a 8 inch mid bass.:)

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Generally component speakers are better than coaxial speakers but that's a manufacturer's decision. It's cheaper to make a coaxial speaker with inferior components than it is to make a cheap component set. Coaxial designs have the advantage of the tweeter and the woofer being mounted very close together (coincident, hence the name coaxial (coincident axes)) which makes all of the sounds come from one point.

Imagine that you're listening to a drum solo. Because the woofer and tweeter are mounted on the same axis, the drum set will sound correct (at least location wise). Now imagine a component set where the installer mounted the woofer in the door and the tweeter in the A-pillar (the piece between the windshield and the front door). Now it's more likely that the snare drum will appear much lower in the vehicle than the cymbal. This can be overcome by mounting the woofer and the tweeter much closer together. The higher quality coaxial speakers are actually component sets where the tweeter has been suspended over the woofer such as in many MB Quart, Boston Acoustics and other top speaker brands.

Coaxial versus Component Speakers

I know that ICE Gurus@Team-BHP always swear by components ?

So please explain the sentences in bold in a lucid manner.

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Originally Posted by mithun (Post 486147)

Coaxial versus Component Speakers

I know that ICE Gurus@Team-BHP always swear by components ?

So please explain the sentences in bold in a lucid manner.

That statement is correct, but the problem is that you cant install a 6.5" coaxial on your dash without rebuilding the whole dash. And mounting the coaxial on the door stock location only sends the high and mid frequencies to your ankles. Thats why a component is a necessary compromise and proper installation is important to maximize the capability of the product.

Quote:

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker (Post 486129)

firstly the above pair cost above 25k.

Hahaha... me poor fellow always think about sourcing such speakers online and they are available for 200-250 USD (roughly just Rs. 10K, rest all otherwise goes to governments/shipping/dealers:))

Quote:

I am using a little of time aligment in my car not for the front stage(left and right) but for the sub. I have given a small delay in the output of the front stage so that it comes in full sync of the sub and the front stage and the results are remarkable. the mid bass goes perfectly with the sub. the up front bass is the one of the best I have experienced similar like in the Ajay Bhai palio install which has a 8 inch mid bass.:)

When it comes to sub alignment with main speakers, it reminds me of our (in)famous soomoku sub which has continuous phase control;)

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Originally Posted by santosh.s (Post 486180)

sub which has continuous phase control;)

But I am not sure whether it will suffice though. Because usually sub will be farther than mains so we have to delay main speakers as you have done or else pull the sub timing backward (which is impossible with any circuit in its amp). What do you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by santosh.s (Post 486182)

Relative, mon ami. @LBM has achieved the same by delaying the >60Hz part.
I heard a very competent sub kept in the boot of a Wagon R, with the rest of frequencies beamed into the windshield (very 'forward' sound stage). The results kind of turned me off thinking about using subs in the rear part of my Safari (much more separation), unless I use a good signal processor to delay the front stage from the subs. Now that will complicate matters instead of simplifying it, so my quest for a simpler engineering solution continues - at the moment I am leaning towards a sub under the seat, which is an engineering challenge in a Safari.

OT: Yesterday I finally managed to take those damned sub-blocking caps out of the circuit in the front door mid-bass drivers (the rear co-axes don't have it). Lo and behold - the lower mid-bass improved, BUT ... :Shockked: it opened a Pandora's box of buzzes and rattles everywhere - imagine "ooooo..trrrr..ooooo..brrr..oooo" in a Himmesh song (NO, I am not a fan). I can feel the 60-100Hz in the arm-rest on the door, instead of hearing it. No wonder the guys at Tata had put the sub-blockers, it is a virtual cacophony without it if you increase volume. Target for this week: strip the whole thing and put in damping sheets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by santosh.s (Post 486121)

Refer to this manual: http://vault.alpine-usa.com/products...M_SPX-177R.PDF
It supports a large set of jumper settings to tune phase

All XOs have a phase as well as a roll off (freq.) response. Even 1st order "phase coherent" XOs have a phase response.

What Alpine is doing is adjusting the Q of the XO to change the phase response. This is nothing spectacular. In fact if you see in "Set 3" the run the woofer "flat out" as J5 short circuts the low pass inductor and leaving J6 open means that the knee of the 2nd order section cum impedance compensation of the network is also not active. This is very simple circutry. In fact this is very similar to how I fine tune my XOs.

John Krutke of Zaphaudio has included a much more sophisticated circuit that provides actual ladder delay to compensate for the relative positions of the woofer and tweeter in his ZD5. see L4, R5, C6, C7, L8 and R9 in the link below. Zaph|Audio - ZD5 - Scan Speak 15W8530K00 and Vifa XT25

I have never bothered to implement a passive ladder network in a speaker crossover but prefer to do so at the line level instead (the disadvantage is that each driver needs it's own amplifier).

Mithun, besides what Gunbir says just sticking a tweeter infront of the wofer does not mean that they are in the same acoustic plane. the voice coil of the tweeter will be ahead of the woofer and hence there will be some time difference between the two drivers even in this configuration.

Der Alte, the bass blocker will also let you play the front speakers louder, but you already knew that didn't you.