[Autophile]

Originally Posted by navin

santsoh, you are refering to Infinity and Tannoy.


Tannnoy is another matter (and they dont do ICE). shoinvg he tweter down the throat of a woofer does not make is accurate. you do get a theoretical point source but rememebr teh tweeter is a wave guide (which is not bad) but this wave guide (the woofer cone) is moving (or atleast is should be to reproduce the mids and bass) and that cant be a good thing. That said I ahve heard the Tannoy drivers and like many they have their strengths and weaknesses. KEF's Uni-Q driver is worse. Some fullrange drivers (a la Jordan's JX92, Fostex 103, 108, 127, 167, 168, WR/FR125, Lowthers, Tangband, Supravox, Veravox, etc.. might be better at reproducing the fullrange) but that is topic for another forum.

Navin there is no loudspeaker without limitation in this world. Everyone is looking for best possible compromise to attain coherent full range sound. Not to forget every loudspeaker sounds fantastic in isolation.

Full range drivers are different story. They have limitations to play loud until they are used in horn loaded enclosures even after that they lack dynamic abilities and suit a particular genre of music. All of them have roll off in HF.

If you need dynamic loudspeaker it has to be with multiple driver arrangement minimum 2 -way.

Tannoy has a long history of more than 80 years in manufacturing loudspeakers founded back in 1920's and made legendary driver "Dual Concentric" in early 1930's. Lot of founder of big names have come from Tannoy only eg. founder of KEF used to work for Tannoy, there is a long list to follow.

Tannoy has not done "simple task of shoving the tweeter down the midbass / woofer throat". There is lot of research and development which has gone in development of Dual Concentric driver over the period of 70 years. Over these years lot of manufacturers has tried the idea of shoving the tweeter down the midbass/ woofer throat but have failed miserably. KEF UNI-Q is one of them.

Recently in late 90's Tannoy developed supertweeter to extend the HF response for high definition mediums, which does made huge difference to the sound but was bullied in "Audiophile" world. Following to its production other manufacturers either started manufacturing supertweeters (KEF) while others extended the response of their tweeters (B&W).

Coming to the point Dual Concentric is a phase coherent driver in which tweeter and midbass are time aligned physically unlike other conventional loudspeakers where complex crossovers and funny cabinets with sloping baffles are used to time align the drivers.

Tannoy Dual Concentrics run on simple straight forward first order / second order crossovers arrangements because of properietory driver arrangement.

As far as moving woofer cone disturbing the HF is concerned. It is totally non existant as it is taken care by properietory waveguide system Tulip / Pepper Pot in Dual Concentric Drivers.

Listen to Tannoy Dual Concentric. It will be hard for anyone to move back to conventional Multi Way loudspeaker.

Its been 10 years I have been using Tannoy loudspeakers. Today no matter how advance and expensive the multi driver loudspeaker is, it is difficult for me to listen to it for long period as i can locate the drivers. Its not me it is same with every Tannoy Dual Concentric users.

I have listened to large variety of speakers B&W, Martin Logan, Magnepan, Aerial Acoustics, Avalon Acoustics, Dynaudio, Krell, Avantgarde, Sonus Faber, Wilson Audio, Canton, Acoustic Energy, JBL, KEF, Egglestonworks, Celestion, Miller & Kreisel, NHT, Paradigm etc.

I will choose Tannoy over these as my personal liking.

Tannoy is a very big name, people in India does not realise.

But ask Parsi's what Tannoy is all about he will tell you. I still remember I was at Mumbai AV revolution, an 80 year old parsi gentleman who could barely warlk came along with his grandson to Tannoy demo room. He said I have come here just to see Tannoys. Before leaving he said "I need repair kit / new drivers for my 40 year old Tannoy Speakers so that I can pass them to my Grandson". Guess what he got the driver for his 40 year old Tannoy loudspeaker from the factory.

Saying that Tannoy still supports the loudspeakers manufactured back in 1920's with spares.

Very Few Credits :

Tannoy Professional has been serving in Bellagio Hotel Las Vegas, U.S. Navy Ships, London House of Commons etc and in coming Dubai Burj (the cost of Tannoy speakers to be used in this project is more than Tannoys own annual turnover)

Tannoy Studio is being used legendary Bernie Grundman, Movies like Terminator 2 - True Lies - Titanic were mastered using Tannoys, Eve Anna Manley of Manley Labs uses Tannoy SRM 10's Monitors for testing her amplifiers and personally uses Tannoy Westminister Royal), Luciano Pavarotti uses Tannoy Reference Westminster Royal for personal listening.

These lists are literally endless.

The name Tannoy is much more than just another loudspeaker manufacturer.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Tannoy used to to be synonymous with PA speakers --- as in 'heard it over the Tannoy just now'.

The name Tannoy is as linked to speakers as Hoover is vacuum cleaners or Thermos to flasks!

[gunbir]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Tannoy used to to be synonymous with PA speakers --- as in 'heard it over the Tannoy just now'.

The name Tannoy is as linked to speakers as Hoover is vacuum cleaners or Thermos to flasks!

Yessir! In fact if you look up the Oxford dictionary you will find "tannoy" there. AskOxford: tannoy

There have been very few instances in my life where a loudspeaker has truly moved me... When I just stood/sat there for hours with an astonished look on my face while I heard what seemed like a live performance with the artist in the same room as me. I have experienced such moments with Tannoys Prestige range, specifically the Canterburys and the Westminster Royals.

[tsk1979]

When we speak about branded high cost wires(Stinger/audison etc.,) what is the percentage of Gold in them?

[low_bass_makker]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

When we speak about branded high cost wires(Stinger/audison etc.,) what is the percentage of Gold in them?

why are you so concerned by the gold in there....

[Autophile]

The car audio cables don't have gold in them. They have another "gold" in them called copper.

The quality car audio cables have pure oxygen free copper which is expensive.

Amount of copper used in making power cable is much more than in making speaker cables. Hence they are expensive. They will be getting expensive in coming time as copper price is increasing day by day.

The good quality cables will never oxidise. I have never seen a Connection Audison cable oxidising be it be power or speaker.

In car audio the cables are manufactured using multiple thin strands which offers flexibility in tight bends and curves in car. You need thick cables for DC in comparison to AC and the thickness increases with current demand and resistance. If your requirement is a 2 Guage wire you have to put good quality flexible wire as similar wire meant for AC is impossible to put in car.

[Dhar's]

Originally Posted by ported_head

There are no jugaad options, or what??

Why not a FM transmitter? Should be cheaper @ ~1K. I found one in an electronic shop which according to the sales man, can play from a memory card, HDD connected through USB and any audio device connected through normal stereo pin. Manufactured in PRC by some unknown brand. Quality however is something to be tested.

[navin]

Originally Posted by Autophile

Full range drivers are different story. They have limitations to play loud until they are used in horn loaded enclosures even after that they lack dynamic abilities and suit a particular genre of music. All of them have roll off in HF.

Coming to the point Dual Concentric is a phase coherent driver in which tweeter and midbass are time aligned physically unlike other conventional loudspeakers where complex crossovers and funny cabinets with sloping baffles are used to time align the drivers.

Tannoy Dual Concentrics run on simple straight forward first order / second order crossovers arrangements because of properietory driver arrangement.

As far as moving woofer cone disturbing the HF is concerned. It is totally non existant as it is taken care by properietory waveguide system Tulip / Pepper Pot in Dual Concentric Drivers.

The name Tannoy is much more than just another loudspeaker manufacturer.

Agreed that all fullrange drivers roll off the HF.

Agreed that a dual concentric time aligns the drivers nicely (without the use a tricky corssovers and cabinets)

And Inever said anything deregatory about Tannoy, in fact if you read carefully you will notice that I rubbished the Uni-Q more.

Many if not all tannoys also need horn loading (like many but not all fullrange drivers) to create a balanced sound. I have used the HPD 10 (Eaton) and 15 (Berkley) as well as the Gold 12 (still have a pair of LSU/HF/12G drivers around somewhere). Like I have said before age has it's priviliages! :-) and they were good drivers but i many ways I am begining to believe that the game has moved on. Just like the game for the big block (350cc and more) V8s has moved on with the new advent of modern 2.0 liter "microprocessor controlled turbochagered and fuel injected" engines producing all the power/torque with half the weight.

Like it or not the HF unit looks like it is a "wave guide". The only disagreemment we seem to have is if this wave guide is moving (a woofer cone). I do not understand how you can say that the woofer in a tannoy dual concentric will not affect the HF emanting from it's center.

I am not comparing a dual concentric to a traditional multi way speaker. I too find most of these missing that "special something". Fullranges despite their shortcomig i managing the entire musical spectrum (some are also strangely coloured in their delivery) are more coherent. My experiences with managing a fullrange (Jordan JX92) using a "super tweeter" like the OW4 and a woofer like a pair of 8" (Focal 8K516J in this case) have not been very successful. Although my XO is around 100 and 5k the coherence still gets lost. So the search goes on. Other options (dipoles, planar-dynamic combos, and more) will also have to be further researched. I have tried one planar dynamic combo that was nice (but coloured) using a pair of 12" (isobarik) mated to a Maggie SMGa.

Now I fear we are seriously OT. Thanks to my initial comment. So before the rest of the forum starts leaving we should take this discussion to PM.

Disclaimer: I have not heard or used the smaller 6.5 and 8" DC Tannoys other than some rudimentery listening at various Audio shows.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Autophile

The car audio cables don't have gold in them. They have another "gold" in them called copper.

The quality car audio cables have pure oxygen free copper which is expensive.

Amount of copper used in making power cable is much more than in making speaker cables. Hence they are expensive. They will be getting expensive in coming time as copper price is increasing day by day.

The good quality cables will never oxidise. I have never seen a Connection Audison cable oxidising be it be power or speaker.

In car audio the cables are manufactured using multiple thin strands which offers flexibility in tight bends and curves in car. You need thick cables for DC in comparison to AC and the thickness increases with current demand and resistance. If your requirement is a 2 Guage wire you have to put good quality flexible wire as similar wire meant for AC is impossible to put in car.

So a good quality power cable will have high purity copper.
Currently you can buy copper cable 2 Gauge confirming to standard IS 694. IS 694 is was revised last in (1990 I think) and lays down the standard such that the copper should be 99.9% pure.
Are the commercial Power cables in market(not BOSS, but the good ones) have copper which is of higher purity that IS 694?
If the copper which they have confirms to IS 694(99.9% purity) then I guess its just a brand preference. 99.9% copper wire of thickness X and resistance of Y ohms/meter will behave the same whether its Audison, Stinger or L&T?
Only if they contain some exotic materials like silver which has higher conductivity than copper then it makes sense.
Resistivity of Silver : 1.59 * 10^(-8) ohm m
Pure copper : 1.68 * 10^(-8) ohm m
A 2 gauge roll of silver wire enough for wiring up the car amp (No insutation though ) will cost around 60,000rs.
I guess thats why copper is used!
To look at what materials conduct best...
Resistivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[santosh.s]

Originally Posted by navin

Now I fear we are seriously OT. Thanks to my initial comment. So before the rest of the forum starts leaving we should take this discussion to PM.

How about having a technical section for ICE... any takers?
I know that the option of googling is always open to all, but there is nothing like directly interacting with "been there, done that" kind of people (I mean ICE gurus).

[hydrashok]

@tsk1979, I think other factors that add to the cost are the shielding/insulation & the quality of the connectors.

The shielding/insulation would need to be very flexible and at the same time physically thick. And keep whatever fields that power-wires generate (magnetic etc, DUH! ) from affecting stuff around the wires. The RCAs would need even more serious shielding to prevent RF interference from affecting the signal being passed through.

The connectors would be gold-plated/coated (in the case of RCAs), and would be of high quality, so that the connectors/jacks would not become bottlenecks.

[tsk1979]

Well I am talking about Power cables only.
So to test power cables, whats the best way.
One way could be to attach a resister(load) and see the voltage drop with different cables. the cable with the least voltage drop is the best.

[low_bass_makker]

I agree with Tanveer for the copper wire.....if wire is 99.9 % copper whether it is stinger or L&T is will give same results.....and I am 100% sure on that

about the flexibility part there can be some issues but the finolex and l&t can also be twisted in anyway...

this is a pic of a electrical panel and the red wire used is a 4 gauge also the terminal used were pure 99.99 % pure OFC. and they are quite cheap when compared to the stinger ones......

[tsk1979]

lbm, its not just the 99.9% purity part. Thats just the ETP grade.
Finolex, L&T and other cables which are certified BIS IS 694 standard should meet many other criteria too.
I found this link Copper India
When I got my apartment constructed, I specifically got it checked that the wiring, including 15A wiring for AC points is all IS 694 compliant and the builder does not use any silly non BIS certified brands.
Since a 300W (Not sound, but electric rating) amp will carry around 25AMP of current, the wiring should be rated for higher. Most BIS standard wiring from reputed companies has the max current carrying capacity written on it.
Moreover in all these brands you can also choose wires specially insulated to withstand 70 degree + ambient temparatures(industrial wiring).

[navin]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Resistivity of Silver : 1.59 * 10^(-8) ohm m
Pure copper : 1.68 * 10^(-8) ohm m

Silver has an added advantage. Silver oxide is conductive. Cooper oxide is not.

Besides there are some that believe that each metal (and some other materials like carbon) adds it's own signature to the sound (this does not apply to Power cables) along with other factors like core geometry, skin effect, dielectric, and even the granular structure of conductors.

Gold and silver are supposed to enhance detail, carbon fibre is supposed to induce a relaxing presentaion, Titanium is suppsoed to enhance the bass, copper increaes warmth etc... . I know of cables that claim to have all these elements and more!