Need Help in selecting Audio for Swift

Vivekphadnis · 29th October 2005, 00:50

RobertClive, where are you buying the amps?

mclaren1885 · 29th October 2005, 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertClive

Why did you buy a DVC when you had an option of SVC? Anyway you aren't using the wiring flexibility.

There could be only one explanation: You were planning on upgrade from the begining.

By the way, I am not going for 8 ohm impedence circuit. I will be powering only one 8" (2ohms in series = 4 ohms) now. Its only when I upgrade, I will have problems in adding another sub to the bridged output.

well the 10'' sub from hertz didnt come with a SVC option,so had to opt for a DVC..anyways ur partially right..i might be in for a upgrade of amp to a audison srx5 or lrx5 shortly..so lets see what happens..

RobertClive · 29th October 2005, 01:01

All these time in the forum, I just learned, "To say Alpines are better" is a relative term. I have read some test results where Kenwood was placed ahead of Alpine. In one of the test, Clarion was awarded the best. And in all the tests that I have read, Alpine never made it to the final round. (I could give you the site if you want. It is russian and you need to use some kind of translator)

On a whole, Alpine definitely produces more reliable amplifiers and has established its brand. There are other brands entering India like MTX which are also very good amp.

I prefer to expriment before accepting for the basic reason that music taste differs for each person. One of the review sites also mentioned the fact that US people prefer brighter sound and many european and asian countries do not prefer that. Hence, products that are very populare in US such as Boston Acoustics fail to impress in such countries. Hertz (audison), Focal, Art sound, Digital Dynamics, MTX, Magnat, MB Quart are few brands very popular in such countries.

But, exprimenting = cost. Its is a gamble. If only my father was a millioner

RobertClive · 29th October 2005, 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

i might be in for a upgrade of amp to a audison srx5 or lrx5 shortly..

Oh boy, you shouldn't have said it in open. Already so many people behind that F450 amp of yours.

Vivekphadnis · 29th October 2005, 01:09

We heard McLaren's Alpine with Hertz speakers. They sounded good. But Alpine is a known, respected brand. I would say more towards the high-end sound kind of thing as compared to pioneer, sony, clarion et al.

Tests and figures can mean nothing. For example, the Williamson tube amplifier is said to have a distortion figure of something like 5%. Can you imagine that? But still it is known to be a very sweet sounding amp.

mclaren1885 · 29th October 2005, 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertClive

All these time in the forum, I just learned, "To say Alpines are better" is a relative term. I have read some test results where Kenwood was placed ahead of Alpine. In one of the test, Clarion was awarded the best. And in all the tests that I have read, Alpine never made it to the final round. (I could give you the site if you want. It is russian and you need to use some kind of translator)

On a whole, Alpine definitely produces more reliable amplifiers and has established its brand. There are other brands entering India like MTX which are also very good amp.

I prefer to expriment before accepting for the basic reason that music taste differs for each person. One of the review sites also mentioned the fact that US people prefer brighter sound and many european and asian countries do not prefer that. Hence, products that are very populare in US such as Boston Acoustics fail to impress in such countries. Hertz (audison), Focal, Art sound, Digital Dynamics, MTX, Magnat, MB Quart are few brands very popular in such countries.

But, exprimenting = cost. Its is a gamble. If only my father was a millioner

well that relative term that u used are based on the personal opinions of the folks on this forum..i too checked on various amps during my short search in the market and invariably found all the well known guys recommending alpines over the rest..so its obvious they must have seen something in it na..

well ur partially true based on the geographical locations i have seen tastes vary massively..so what people love in USA,europe etc might not be popular say like in india..but its ur own ears that u got to trust..so id say if ur happy let the world drown itself if they arent..

mclaren1885 · 29th October 2005, 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertClive

I prefer to expriment before accepting for the basic reason that music taste differs for each person. One of the review sites also mentioned the fact that US people prefer brighter sound and many european and asian countries do not prefer that. Hence, products that are very populare in US such as Boston Acoustics fail to impress in such countries. Hertz (audison), Focal, Art sound, Digital Dynamics, MTX, Magnat, MB Quart are few brands very popular in such countries.

well i had made a few enquiries before finalising on hertz setup..well they are made in italy and i heard the kind of music that the italians like is similar to the kind of music that we indians prefer listening to..so u see there are a lot of factors one needs to put into focus before saying that brand A is better than brand B and vice-versa..all depends on personal tastes...what might sound brilliant to A might sound below par to B and vice-versa..as far as my knowledge goes the guys on this forum have always adviced to go by your own instinct and not to rely upon what others got to say..well we can only provide our opinions but what u end up finding best for u is all that matters aint it RC..

RobertClive · 29th October 2005, 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivekphadnis

We heard McLaren's Alpine with Hertz speakers. They sounded good.

Yeah, it sounded great. I still don't understand why McL wants to upgrade. Had I got such setup when I was in my college, well, I wouldn't have completed my degree......

And vivek, you are right. Alpine is kind of upmarket brand. The new MRV-F345 is a stunning amp. It even has a digital LCD to show the crossover frequency, the input volt, etc. I saw the amp and just fell in love.

1. I somehow feel that most of the amps like Kenwood and Pioneer works reasonably well till 75% of the load. Beyond that, they begin to distort. I may be wrong. But brands like Alpine, Rockford, MTX perform beyond the stated load.
2. The quality of the active crossover is also debatable. We know for sure that crossovers in alpine are good. But how about kenwood?
3. I also have reservations on jack of all trade companies like kenwood and sony. Alpine and others are only in car audio.

That is about the quality of amplifier. But quality of sound is a different subject. Sometimes, unexpected sound quality can be found form unexpected sources (again, personal preference). In this front, to say Alpine is better is definitely very relative.

Vivek, when I met you last time, you said you were planning to make an amp of your own. Did you go any further on it?

Quote:

RobertClive, where are you buying the amps?

I haven't bought the amp yet. I will let you know once I am through.

mclaren1885 · 29th October 2005, 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertClive

Yeah, it sounded great. I still don't understand why McL wants to upgrade. Had I got such setup when I was in my college, well, I wouldn't have completed my degree......

well hopefully il get thru my degree with flying colours RC or else im going to get u for this one

...well coming to the upgrade part i still want to see what a better amp with better build quality and features (2 ohm stable for a starter) can do to a setup..want to see what role these amps play and the extent to which they influence a setup..well i personlly believe money comes and goes in a lifetime but the way u have enjoyed life to the fullest and what u have learnt from it is what matters..so expect to see a few more crazy things from me in the future too

.. but like navin would say lets leave that for another day..

RobertClive · 29th October 2005, 02:03

Gurus, need some techie clarification

1. How will you know if the output from an amp is not clear and distorted? A technical insite will also be appreciated.

2. Does the amp have tendency to amplify different frequencies at different levels?

3. Will the wave form produced by the amplifer be a smooth curve or stepped? If so, can we see the the waveform produced to judge the quality of amp?

4. what does the following mean (in technical terms)

a) some yyy amplifer is too bright
b) some zzz amplifier is too harsh

navin · 29th October 2005, 10:57

Yikes. You guys have taken this to another plane and I am loving every minute of it. It is not often I read posts twice! this stuff is fantastic. kudos to all of you. Like I was telling Sam the other day I am very happy that you young guns have taken over. I would hate to see what we oldies know die out with us. Besides you guys are more open to exprimention, learn faster, and are very insightful. I feel priviliged to be part of such a "conversation".

No doubt the Audison amps should be good. I have not heard them and JB and Gunbir are workig towards that goal :-)

The reason I recomend Alpine over say JBL, Sony, and Blaupunkt is that I find them to suit my taste better. It is very good that guys like Vivek, Robert and Mclaren have decided not to blindly follow my opinoin but to use their ears and make their own. It also excites me to know that others other myself can tell differences between amplifiers. Many I meet beleive that all electronics sound the same. I call it the Julian Hirsch school of audio "if it measures well it must sound good". BTW I have deep respect the late Mr. Hirsch's techniques but we'll reserve that for another thread.

Thankfully we are not clones of each other. This also means that we have significanlty different preferences (listening preferences included). What may be bright to me may be normal to some. However if we are to paint this topin with broad strokes we should diffrentiate between brightness and harshness.

so let's try and define answers to Robert's questions.

Clear sound will sound so. Distorted sound will persuade you to turn the volume down. Some distortion can be easily recognised (odd order distortion and non linear distortion) some distortion is not so easily recognised but leads to listening fatigue as the brain is forces ot process around the distortion.

An ideal amp should amplify all slunds from 0Hz to 100000Mhz to the same degree but this is obviously not real. Most amplifers are reasonably linear in the range defined by the limits of of the human ear. However lineairty is not the only factor that defines a good amp. While we dont exaclty knwo ALL the factors that define a good amp we know that some of teh factors are slew-rate, bandwidth, S/N ratio, power enevlope, nature of clipping, etc. Julian Hirsh made very good attempts at this but most audiophiles believe that our present measuring techniques are not adequate for us to make a consistent objective decision based on measurements alone.

Analog amplifers make smooth waveforms. If you feed them pure sine waves. If you feed them square waves all bets are off. Music is a mix of all sorrts of waves. :-)

Harshness is irritating. Brightness is not as irritating but it feels like the tonal balance is off. Often systems (speakers are the biggest culprits) sound nice at one volume to bright at others and even harsh at louder levels. Of course the ideal system is one that is nver bright, never dull and retains it's qualities across all volume levels.

Vivekphadnis · 29th October 2005, 11:03

1) The best way to know is your ear. Companies can give out all the specs they want but ultimately it is your ear that has to judge that.

2) Don't know about this.

3) The ideal amp would have a smooth sine wave output. But since in the real world this does not happen, you see waveform, harmonic, inter-modulation distortion etc. Again you will get an idea of how much the amp is distorting but not how the amp will sound.

4) Bright= Mid and high frequencies have prominence which gives you that bright sound. Could lead to ear fatigue after prolonged listening.

Harsh= Is it not obvious? I would say too much amplification and boost.

Yes, I would have loved to make my own amp but the power supply is very difficult to get right. Besides, it will take a lot of time, which is in short supply in my case.

muni · 29th October 2005, 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by navin

An ideal amp should amplify all slunds from 0Hz to 100000Mhz to the same degree but this is obviously not real. Most amplifers are reasonably linear in the range defined by the limits of of the human ear..

Navin ..correct me if i am wrng
0Hz to 100000Mhz? But the audible frequency is 20 to 20Khz ( above 10Khz very less of it) Are u talking abt the internal amplification inside the circuits!

One important point RC raised was the amplification of certain frequencies at different volume levels. I think that it is true because i can enjoy music at a certain level and if i increase it to a certain level, some frequencies do sound a bit amplified and a bit unacceptable. I make use of the equaliser to either reduce or increase the frequency till my ears feel that they are pleasant.

Are you suggesting that the amplifiers/speakers are the culprits and gud speakers and amplifiers shud not behave like this.

When u listen to some amplifiers/speakers combinatin , u get a feeling that no matter what you feed them, they give you relatively soft music across the frequency range acoss all volume levels. Some may be neutral and some feel a bit bright at certain volume levels.

getting the right Speaker/amplifier combntn wud become crucial as both are mutually dependant on each other to give you a better listening experience. In this sense, wudnt it be a better option, if the brands available recommend a certain set of speakers for a certain amplifier and vice versa ( it again is debatable topic for what tastes the combntn has been tuned for) You have ur ears to quantify what they recommend dont u..

Navin ..have a couple of questions..

1) Even if i listen to gud music, after a while the music fatigue sets in and i cannot listen to music that much. I usually listen to music relatively loud for 10 or 15 mins and sttle for a certain volume level and that can go for hours.

2) Is there some evidence as to what frequencies and volume levels cause this fatgue.

Vivekphadnis · 29th October 2005, 14:13

The 0Hz to 100000Mhz was just an example. But if the amp can amplify a wider frequency bandwidth, obviously the hearing range will have less distortion.

Each amp/speaker/CD player will have its own tonal characteristics. So each amp will add its own 'colour' to the signal. Some will have a warm sound while others might have a bright sound and so on. That is why you must listen to an amp/speaker before buying. And always listen to the amp equaliser/bass/treble boost settings flat. The sound is what you can control while building speakers. You can change the internal box volume or play around with the crossover to suit your taste.

Sam Kapasi · 29th October 2005, 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

i heard the kind of music that the italians like is similar to the kind of music that we indians prefer listening to....

McL, there are people in my family (because of heritage) and People in navin's family (because of taste) that would issue a death warrant for making a statement like that.

29th October 2005, 00:50	#106
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	RobertClive, where are you buying the amps?
	() Thanks

29th October 2005, 01:01	#108
RobertClive BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 54 Thanked: 0 Times	All these time in the forum, I just learned, "To say Alpines are better" is a relative term. I have read some test results where Kenwood was placed ahead of Alpine. In one of the test, Clarion was awarded the best. And in all the tests that I have read, Alpine never made it to the final round. (I could give you the site if you want. It is russian and you need to use some kind of translator) On a whole, Alpine definitely produces more reliable amplifiers and has established its brand. There are other brands entering India like MTX which are also very good amp. I prefer to expriment before accepting for the basic reason that music taste differs for each person. One of the review sites also mentioned the fact that US people prefer brighter sound and many european and asian countries do not prefer that. Hence, products that are very populare in US such as Boston Acoustics fail to impress in such countries. Hertz (audison), Focal, Art sound, Digital Dynamics, MTX, Magnat, MB Quart are few brands very popular in such countries. But, exprimenting = cost. Its is a gamble. If only my father was a millioner
	() Thanks

29th October 2005, 01:09	#110
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	We heard McLaren's Alpine with Hertz speakers. They sounded good. But Alpine is a known, respected brand. I would say more towards the high-end sound kind of thing as compared to pioneer, sony, clarion et al. Tests and figures can mean nothing. For example, the Williamson tube amplifier is said to have a distortion figure of something like 5%. Can you imagine that? But still it is known to be a very sweet sounding amp.
	() Thanks

29th October 2005, 02:03	#115
RobertClive BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 54 Thanked: 0 Times	Gurus, need some techie clarification 1. How will you know if the output from an amp is not clear and distorted? A technical insite will also be appreciated. 2. Does the amp have tendency to amplify different frequencies at different levels? 3. Will the wave form produced by the amplifer be a smooth curve or stepped? If so, can we see the the waveform produced to judge the quality of amp? 4. what does the following mean (in technical terms) a) some yyy amplifer is too bright b) some zzz amplifier is too harsh Last edited by RobertClive : 29th October 2005 at 02:05.
	() Thanks

29th October 2005, 10:57	#116
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,198 Thanked: 9,300 Times	Yikes. You guys have taken this to another plane and I am loving every minute of it. It is not often I read posts twice! this stuff is fantastic. kudos to all of you. Like I was telling Sam the other day I am very happy that you young guns have taken over. I would hate to see what we oldies know die out with us. Besides you guys are more open to exprimention, learn faster, and are very insightful. I feel priviliged to be part of such a "conversation". No doubt the Audison amps should be good. I have not heard them and JB and Gunbir are workig towards that goal :-) The reason I recomend Alpine over say JBL, Sony, and Blaupunkt is that I find them to suit my taste better. It is very good that guys like Vivek, Robert and Mclaren have decided not to blindly follow my opinoin but to use their ears and make their own. It also excites me to know that others other myself can tell differences between amplifiers. Many I meet beleive that all electronics sound the same. I call it the Julian Hirsch school of audio "if it measures well it must sound good". BTW I have deep respect the late Mr. Hirsch's techniques but we'll reserve that for another thread. Thankfully we are not clones of each other. This also means that we have significanlty different preferences (listening preferences included). What may be bright to me may be normal to some. However if we are to paint this topin with broad strokes we should diffrentiate between brightness and harshness. so let's try and define answers to Robert's questions. Clear sound will sound so. Distorted sound will persuade you to turn the volume down. Some distortion can be easily recognised (odd order distortion and non linear distortion) some distortion is not so easily recognised but leads to listening fatigue as the brain is forces ot process around the distortion. An ideal amp should amplify all slunds from 0Hz to 100000Mhz to the same degree but this is obviously not real. Most amplifers are reasonably linear in the range defined by the limits of of the human ear. However lineairty is not the only factor that defines a good amp. While we dont exaclty knwo ALL the factors that define a good amp we know that some of teh factors are slew-rate, bandwidth, S/N ratio, power enevlope, nature of clipping, etc. Julian Hirsh made very good attempts at this but most audiophiles believe that our present measuring techniques are not adequate for us to make a consistent objective decision based on measurements alone. Analog amplifers make smooth waveforms. If you feed them pure sine waves. If you feed them square waves all bets are off. Music is a mix of all sorrts of waves. :-) Harshness is irritating. Brightness is not as irritating but it feels like the tonal balance is off. Often systems (speakers are the biggest culprits) sound nice at one volume to bright at others and even harsh at louder levels. Of course the ideal system is one that is nver bright, never dull and retains it's qualities across all volume levels.
	() Thanks

29th October 2005, 11:03	#117
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	1) The best way to know is your ear. Companies can give out all the specs they want but ultimately it is your ear that has to judge that. 2) Don't know about this. 3) The ideal amp would have a smooth sine wave output. But since in the real world this does not happen, you see waveform, harmonic, inter-modulation distortion etc. Again you will get an idea of how much the amp is distorting but not how the amp will sound. 4) Bright= Mid and high frequencies have prominence which gives you that bright sound. Could lead to ear fatigue after prolonged listening. Harsh= Is it not obvious? I would say too much amplification and boost. Yes, I would have loved to make my own amp but the power supply is very difficult to get right. Besides, it will take a lot of time, which is in short supply in my case.
	() Thanks

29th October 2005, 14:13	#119
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	The 0Hz to 100000Mhz was just an example. But if the amp can amplify a wider frequency bandwidth, obviously the hearing range will have less distortion. Each amp/speaker/CD player will have its own tonal characteristics. So each amp will add its own 'colour' to the signal. Some will have a warm sound while others might have a bright sound and so on. That is why you must listen to an amp/speaker before buying. And always listen to the amp equaliser/bass/treble boost settings flat. The sound is what you can control while building speakers. You can change the internal box volume or play around with the crossover to suit your taste.
	() Thanks