[vikram_d]

Originally Posted by anuragn

similarly if removal dark tints can prevent even one rape (at the cost of inconvenience to all others), it is still worth the effort.

Mark my words my friend. Removal of tints will not stop rape from happening in the future. Only fear of very strong punishment will. A person/gang bent on raping someone will find a way to do it, tints or no tints.

Did you know more rapes happen in buildings than in moving vehicles. What next? Ban walls? These are all short cut solutions to our political inability to hand out harsh sentences for something as severe as rape.

So I say again banning tints will not stop rape from happening. Only the fear of strong punishment will.

[anuragn]

Even fear of very strong punishment alone cannot stop any crime. Punishment for murder is life term or death. But still murders happen abundantly.
I believe there are two basic reasons:
1. Most of the people who commit such heinous crimes have the hand of some big shot over their head. We can see proof of this in so many criminals getting caught red-handed and still getting away with no or very little punishment.
2. More importantly, the attitude of men towards women needs to be changed, which cannot be done in a day or two. It takes generations to effect, for whiich very long term vision and planning is required. Basically social re-engineering.

So until remedy for the above two happens, we do need stringent laws as well as bans of these sorts like the sunfilm ban.

[vikram_d]

Originally Posted by anuragn

So until remedy for the above two happens, we do need stringent laws as well as bans of these sorts like the sunfilm ban.

They have banned sun films a number of times earlier. Has that stopped crimes against women from happening? No it has not. I just cannot see how banning something can prevent crime.

Let me give you an example. Lets for arguments sake say that sun films are banned and everybody has obliged and there is no vehicle with sun films in India. Then a rape happens in an enclosed container truck. What next? Ban shipping containers? Ban covered trucks? Is that possible? No it is not.

There is a category of rape called domestic rape where a husband rapes his own wife. Can you ban marriages? No you can not. Trust me almost 90% of such cases go unreported in India.

Another example. A murder happens in a forest. Can you ban forests and cut down all the trees? No you can not and I can give hundreds of such examples.

Banning something is not the way to fight crime. You have rightly pointed out that the attitude of men towards women needs to change as far as rape is concerned.

The best way to fight crime is to de-politisize our police departments within the limits of the law. No politician should ever be able to influence any police investigation. Give the police the powers they deserve and need to do their job properly and efficiently.

[anuragn]

Originally Posted by vikram_d

Banning something is not the way to fight crime. You have rightly pointed out that the attitude of men towards women needs to change as far as rape is concerned.

The best way to fight crime is to de-politisize our police departments within the limits of the law. No politician should ever be able to influence any police investigation. Give the police the powers they deserve and need to do their job properly and efficiently.

We are on the same page regarding above two points. But it is not going to happen overnight. So I still maintain that till such time, a ban would definitely help. Have'nt you read that kidnappings & rapes in moving cars has become a very common phenomena in and around Delhi?

But according to your logic, since crime can take place anywhere (inside homes too) so there's no use of a vigilant police patrol on the streets, isnt it? So remove all police force from the streets, because anyway rapes will continue to happen off the street? Or we should not drive safely because anyway everyone has to die one day? I can also give hundreds of examples, but the point is a deterrent is always better, atleast wherever possible.
So again I ask: what to do till such time attitude changes take place in the society?

By the way, personally I too dont agree to banning sunfilms because it causes inconvenience to me and my family members, but thats a different thing.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by anuragn

By the way, personally I too dont agree to banning sunfilms because it causes inconvenience to me and my family members, but thats a different thing.

Try stating this on the Sunfilm ban thread, and watch the reaction.

[anuragn]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Try stating this on the Sunfilm ban thread, and watch the reaction.

Well Sir, I too stated in that thread that its one of the most stupid things to ban sunfilms entirely.
But being father of a very young daughter myself, I would rather bear the inconvenience than risk her safety i.e. after a few years when she would start going out by herself.
And as I stated in this thread earlier and now repeating, even if it can save one person, its still worth it.

[vikram_d]

Originally Posted by anuragn

We are on the same page regarding above two points. But it is not going to happen overnight. So I still maintain that till such time, a ban would definitely help. Have'nt you read that kidnappings & rapes in moving cars has become a very common phenomena in and around Delhi?

Sun films are banned in Delhi right? Yet this rape happened. This rape had nothing to do with sun films at all. This rape only happened because the criminals have no fear of the police or of our judicial system. The lack of fear is pretty clear in this particular case as in one the articles I read yesterday the main accused is still unrepentant and has just said "Galti ho gayi" during a press interview. This clearly shows the degenerate attitude of the people involved in such cases. Sun films did not cause this attitude.

Originally Posted by anuragn

But according to your logic, since crime can take place anywhere (inside homes too) so there's no use of a vigilant police patrol on the streets, isnt it? So remove all police force from the streets, because anyway rapes will continue to happen off the street? Or we should not drive safely because anyway everyone has to die one day? I can also give hundreds of examples, but the point is a deterrent is always better, atleast wherever possible.
So again I ask: what to do till such time attitude changes take place in the society?

What logic have I used that you have interpreted my statements as above? Where have I said we don't need the police, of course we need them. All I said was that the current levels of political meddling that goes with police work should stop and police should be made independent within the limits of the law.

Originally Posted by anuragn

By the way, personally I too dont agree to banning sunfilms because it causes inconvenience to me and my family members, but thats a different thing.

I rest my case.

I would just like to state again that banning something is not the way to fight such crimes. The fear of strict, rigorous and swift punishment is. In how many drunken driving accidents have we seen the accused getting bail within hours? People still drink and drive because they do not fear the law and they know that money will solve most of their problems and this is a vey sad reality that we face every single day.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by vikram_d

Sun films are banned in Delhi right? Yet this rape happened. This rape had nothing to do with sun films at all. This rape only happened because the criminals have no fear of the police or of our judicial system. .

Wrong. The rape had a lot to do with the sun film. Criminals have no fear of police, yet they committed the crime because the films hid them from eyes of others. The crime could have been prevented if police had followed the orders and removed films from all vehicles.

Originally Posted by vikram_d

I would just like to state again that banning something is not the way to fight such crimes. The fear of strict, rigorous and swift punishment is. In how many drunken driving accidents have we seen the accused getting bail within hours? People still drink and drive because they do not fear the law and they know that money will solve most of their problems and this is a vey sad reality that we face every single day.

Agree, the law should be stringent enough to deter the crimes. Similarly there should be stiff penalty on using sunfilms. I know people who prefer paying mere 100/- as fine then removing the film. Their logic is clear, why remove the films if you can have them by paying fine, sometimes once in months.

I have been living in northern part of India where temperatures crosses 45 degrees in summers. I do not use sun films and have never had minor health related issues due to lack the films on my car. Think of majority of Indians who use public transport or two wheelers for daily commute, if they don't need Sun films to survive, why should we?

We should support banning of sun films if this law helps curtailing the crime, if if by 1%.

[vikram_d]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Wrong. The rape had a lot to do with the sun film. Criminals have no fear of police, yet they committed the crime because the films hid them from eyes of others. The crime could have been prevented if police had followed the orders and removed films from all vehicles.

According to one of the reports I read the bus involved made multiple U turns in sight of a group of 9 police personnel stationed in an official van. Didn't they see anything wrong?

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Agree, the law should be stringent enough to deter the crimes. Similarly there should be stiff penalty on using sunfilms. I know people who prefer paying mere 100/- as fine then removing the film. Their logic is clear, why remove the films if you can have them by paying fine, sometimes once in months.

Read my previous posts. How many things will you ban? Some excerpts from my previous examples. Will you ban walls, shipping containers, forests etc etc etc.

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

I have been living in northern part of India where temperatures crosses 45 degrees in summers. I do not use sun films and have never had minor health related issues due to lack the films on my car. Think of majority of Indians who use public transport or two wheelers for daily commute, if they don't need Sun films to survive, why should we?

We should support banning of sun films if this law helps curtailing the crime, if if by 1%.

I am not for or against the sun film ban. My point in this whole thread is simple and that is that nothing can prevent rape from happening again. I shared a thought about domestic rape and I would love to hear your comments on that. Will you ban marriages? No you will not. So banning something is not the way to prevent a crime.

Fear of the law is. Fear of harsh and strict punishment is.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by vikram_d

According to one of the reports I read the bus involved made multiple U turns in sight of a group of 9 police personnel stationed in an official van. Didn't they see anything wrong?.

No, they didn't. They did not even listened to the carpenters complaint who was looted by the same guys. If they would have acted on time we would be discussing something else.

Originally Posted by vikram_d

Read my previous posts. How many things will you ban? Some excerpts from my previous examples. Will you ban walls, shipping containers, forests etc etc etc.

No, we shall not. But a bus travelling on Delhi's road at 9:15 PM shall not be as dangerous as a shipping container or forest.

Originally Posted by vikram_d

I am not for or against the sun film ban. My point in this whole thread is simple and that is that nothing can prevent rape from happening again. I shared a thought about domestic rape and I would love to hear your comments on that. Will you ban marriages? No you will not. So banning something is not the way to prevent a crime.

Fear of the law is. Fear of harsh and strict punishment is.

In this case, marriages can not be compared to sun films. You may compare marriages with travel here, if you wish to draw parallels here. Not all travels and marriages go bad.

Banning a sun film is sure shot way of deterring a crime, and as I said earlier it will work even if reduces the crime by 1%. Banning something is never 100% successful. People will still find ways to breach the ban and do what they want. But still, majority will follow the law and adhere to it.

I read a news a couple of years ago a gangster was caught jumping a red light. The criminals in the bus could have been caught if any traffic policeman had stopped the bus for tinted glass.

There were rules framed to define the transparency limits of the films. How many followed it? leave aside the rest, I am sure many of the BHPians were flouting the law.

[vikram_d]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

We should support banning of sun films if this law helps curtailing the crime, if if by 1%.

Well we don't seem to seem see eye to eye on this, so there is no point dragging on this discussion any further. In ending I will just say that banning anything will never help curtail crime by even 1%.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by vikram_d

Well we don't seem to seem see eye to eye on this, so there is no point dragging on this discussion any further.

I agree. I will definitely want to meet you some day and have a chat.