[anjan_c2007]

Originally Posted by prmd_cochin

Sreedharan, I am no volvo fan or supporter. I just had beef with targeted accusations towards a particular product. Volvo can be blamed too for these accidents and the product needs to be re engineered if required. But sreedharan you can't blames them for launching a European model with no modifications, it the regulatory body and buyer that should decide if the product should be allowed/bought. And me calling AL/Tata guys morons comes from the fact they have done nothing with initiative, but only as a reaction. Chinese buses are being sold in developing countries in many '000s while Indian trucks and buses and lagging far behind. Ever wondered why?

Originally Posted by Autokrat

"Truck chassis" was a very clever piece of marketing talk invented by Volvo. Pl. read an earlier post of mine.
In the deluge of monsoon, whenever you have the annual event of flooded streets in some of our metros all our commuters have to rely on as public transport are these "truck buses" built by the "morons" in Tata / AL. Typically the premium, contemporary Volvo buses are the first to be withdrawn from the roads and will be cooling their heels in the garages.
To cut a long story short, the Truck buses are still plying because custmers see value / utility and for exactly the same reasons, two other european giants (venerable names) MAn, Daimler are attempting to bring on front engined buses of their own.

Autokrat: I fully agree with what you have to say. In our markets, where in a country with nearly 70 % of the population below the poverty line, one cannot expect all sections of the population to be able to afford travel by buses like Volvo and Daimler/Bharat Benz or even the upmarket buses made by Tata and Ashok Leyland. These buses cannot run on the village to village sectors where there are dirt tracks, cart tracks and almost no roads and many nullahs and rivers (sometimes in spate or sometimes blessed with causeways) have to be traversed by such people carriers.

Even in the cities the buses with the old ladder frame chassis do their job quite well. Needless to say that these are progressively being replaced by the newly designed buses with bus bodies by AL and Tata and sometimes by other makes, which is desirable.

Calling Tata and AL as morons is uncalled for.

I think one must travel through the length and width of the country and then realise how the poorer people travel.

Coming back to Volvos, for the premium tags that these carry, the safety factors that were supposed to be addressed have been taken very lightly by both the manufacturer and the operator.

[audioholic]

I see a bus belonging to Jabbar/Sangita travels which does Bangalore Goa and back. This bus is parked near my house once in a week or so which I believe is its weekly off or so. Everytime I see this bus, all the maintenance doors will be open, right from the engine bay, luggage area, battery compartment as well as the front hood. It is repaired by a person who has a small telephone booth sized repair shop who actually repairs meter consoles as per the board.

I see shabby looking array of batteries used in this bus. Wires are dangling all around the engine bay and the battery compartment below the drivers door. Due to curiosity of studying the internals of the bus, I used to take a walk whenever it used to be parked. This was the horror I found. The so called electrician tests battery voltage by actually shorting the battery terminals. He did that and after he didnt get a spark, he told the driver that the battery was gone.

If the volvos are given to such persons for maintenance, I wonder how much jugaad they do just to get the bus running. Speaking about how a new bus caught fire, the bus would have visited such an unqualified person right after taking delivery to fit those glaring headlamps and blaring horns which the volvos flaunt. Upon this, they add extra lights, those annoying LED outlines and what not. In that case, a set of batteries will prove to be more disastrous compared to a tank of diesel. The batteries have inflammable acid, and they can produce a nasty spark when the wiring comes in contact with the body. What else is required for a fire?

[suresh_gs]

Originally Posted by audioholic

I see a bus belonging to Jabbar/Sangita travels which does Bangalore Goa and back. This bus is parked near my house once in a week or so which I believe is its weekly off or so. Everytime I see this bus, all the maintenance doors will be open, right from the engine bay, luggage area, battery compartment as well as the front hood. It is repaired by a person who has a small telephone booth sized repair shop who actually repairs meter consoles as per the board.

I see shabby looking array of batteries used in this bus. Wires are dangling all around the engine bay and the battery compartment below the drivers door. Due to curiosity of studying the internals of the bus, I used to take a walk whenever it used to be parked. This was the horror I found. The so called electrician tests battery voltage by actually shorting the battery terminals. He did that and after he didnt get a spark, he told the driver that the battery was gone.

If the volvos are given to such persons for maintenance, I wonder how much jugaad they do just to get the bus running. Speaking about how a new bus caught fire, the bus would have visited such an unqualified person right after taking delivery to fit those glaring headlamps and blaring horns which the volvos flaunt. Upon this, they add extra lights, those annoying LED outlines and what not. In that case, a set of batteries will prove to be more disastrous compared to a tank of diesel. The batteries have inflammable acid, and they can produce a nasty spark when the wiring comes in contact with the body. What else is required for a fire?

As mentioned before, price of a multi axle bus is around 86 lakhs. It is a well known fact that by transporting passengers alone, the operator will not make profit. Added to this is maintenance cost, diesel price, staff salary, bribes, tax.... .

He will cut down on maintenance by getting the vehicle serviced by unqualified person. I have seen some private operators running more than 1 bus with the same registration number. More than passengers, he will make fast buck by transporting illegal cargo.

Unfortunately the common man has to live with this

[prmd_cochin]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

Autokrat: I fully agree with what you have to say. In our markets, where in a country with nearly 70 % of the population below the poverty line, one cannot expect all sections of the population to be able to afford travel by buses like Volvo and Daimler/Bharat Benz or even the upmarket buses made by Tata and Ashok Leyland. These buses cannot run on the village to village sectors where there are dirt tracks, cart tracks and almost no roads and many nullahs and rivers (sometimes in spate or sometimes blessed with causeways) have to be traversed by such people carriers.

Even in the cities the buses with the old ladder frame chassis do their job quite well. Needless to say that these are progressively being replaced by the newly designed buses with bus bodies by AL and Tata and sometimes by other makes, which is desirable.

Calling Tata and AL as morons is uncalled for.

I think one must travel through the length and width of the country and then realise how the poorer people travel.

Coming back to Volvos, for the premium tags that these carry, the safety factors that were supposed to be addressed have been taken very lightly by both the manufacturer and the operator.

Are you saying Al/TATA buses are build in such a cheap way so that they can run on dirt tracks. Have you checked how people travel in Africa, South America, Phillipines were even worse kind of roads exists.

And as a builder do you only keep on building vehicles that can be used on dirt roads when the country and whole world is improving.

TATA/AL were called morons because in spite of making money working in a closed economy with no competition they failed to offer the market with anything that was technically/engineering wise a better mix. And thats why they will lose out eventually to foreign operators. In the middle east TATA/AL were only used for labour transport or as school buses. But now chineese have started eating into the school segment.

So i called them morons because they have failed in the bus segment. Now wait and see what Bharat benz offers. They are coming out with FE buses build in India.

[Autokrat]

Originally Posted by prmd_cochin

So i called them morons because they have failed in the bus segment. Now wait and see what Bharat benz offers. They are coming out with FE buses build in India.

To put the record straight TATA / AL together has a share of over 90% n the large buses. Volvo around 3% (Primarily the premium segment). As this segment grows, I am sure TATA/AL would also bring in products to compete. Just as Maruthi chose to remain in the mass market segment and left the premium segment to Merc, Audi, BMW.

The picture below is of a typical truck bus chassis similar to the ones of TATA / AL - Ladder frame, leaf spring suspension, front engine. Just one difference - this is made by Volvo and sold in South America.

[prmd_cochin]

Originally Posted by Autokrat

To put the record straight TATA / AL together has a share of over 90% n the large buses. Volvo around 3% (Primarily the premium segment). As this segment grows, I am sure TATA/AL would also bring in products to compete. Just as Maruthi chose to remain in the mass market segment and left the premium segment to Merc, Audi, BMW.

The picture below is of a typical truck bus chassis similar to the ones of TATA / AL - Ladder frame, leaf spring suspension, front engine. Just one difference - this is made by Volvo and sold in South America.

Maruti did try to enter the upper segment but failed miserably with the vithara and kizashi. People wont spend that amount of money on a budget car maker.

My beef with TATA/AL is not because they offer cheap products, but because they failed to upgrade their act and are losing out. In India they succeed because of factors like spare parts availability. Using the reverse logic why aren't TATA/AL not successfull in other parts of the world which has poorer roads ?

I know Benz,Volvo, MAN all have FE and leaf suspension buses, but i can bet they are better engineered. Which engines do our manufacturers use? Outsourced ones, right?

[anjan_c2007]

Originally Posted by prmd_cochin

Are you saying Al/TATA buses are build in such a cheap way so that they can run on dirt tracks. Have you checked how people travel in Africa, South America, Phillipines were even worse kind of roads exists.

And as a builder do you only keep on building vehicles that can be used on dirt roads when the country and whole world is improving.

TATA/AL were called morons because in spite of making money working in a closed economy with no competition they failed to offer the market with anything that was technically/engineering wise a better mix. And thats why they will lose out eventually to foreign operators. In the middle east TATA/AL were only used for labour transport or as school buses. But now chineese have started eating into the school segment.

So i called them morons because they have failed in the bus segment. Now wait and see what Bharat benz offers. They are coming out with FE buses build in India.

Sorry, I beg to disagree. We are talking mainly about the safety of Volvo buses.

[suresh_gs]

Originally Posted by prmd_cochin

Maruti did try to enter the upper segment but failed miserably with the vithara and kizashi. People wont spend that amount of money on a budget car maker.

My beef with TATA/AL is not because they offer cheap products, but because they failed to upgrade their act and are losing out. In India they succeed because of factors like spare parts availability. Using the reverse logic why aren't TATA/AL not successfull in other parts of the world which has poorer roads ?

I know Benz,Volvo, MAN all have FE and leaf suspension buses, but i can bet they are better engineered. Which engines do our manufacturers use? Outsourced ones, right?

TATA uses engines from cummins, AL from Hino. I was of the opinion that AL exports its fleet of buses to African countries, Sri Lanka...... I disagree that AL and TATA failed to upgrade their act. For the amount the user shells out, they give the appropriate product. It is also rugged one. How many times in the past, we have seen drivers change gears without depressing the clutch pedal. Truly robust gear box.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by suresh_gs

TATA uses engines from cummins, AL from Hino. I was of the opinion that AL exports its fleet of buses to African countries, Sri Lanka...... I disagree that AL and TATA failed to upgrade their act. For the amount the user shells out, they give the appropriate product. It is also rugged one. How many times in the past, we have seen drivers change gears without depressing the clutch pedal. Truly robust gear box.

+ 1
The Tata Marcopolo buses which I see plying regularly as local buses are low floor+ Rear engine + AT gearboxes which all together enhance passenger and driver comfort. Tata and AL and very much kmown to be havibg reliable engines wuth gearboxes made out of don't kmow what! Clutch-less shifting will ruin any gearbox otherwise but these still soldier-on.

As compared to Volvo, Tata/AL may be late in updating their products but they are trying, we must not forget the sales of Volvo when compared to Tata/AL. Volvo sells worldwide but majority of Tata/AL come from India. Revenue generated is high so is the R&D done so beret are the products.

Anurag.

[silversteed]

Originally Posted by prmd_cochin

...Which engines do our manufacturers use? Outsourced ones, right?

Originally Posted by suresh_gs

TATA uses engines from cummins, AL from Hino...

A small correction there. TM uses engines from Cummins (ISBe, ISLe series) as well as their own 697 and 497 classes of engines. AL used to offer Hino engines, but from the later part of the 90s, they have moved to the H-series engines. H-series and Hino engines are different.

[prmd_cochin]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

Sorry, I beg to disagree. We are talking mainly about the safety of Volvo buses.

Disagree on the topic moving on a tangent or disagreeing with what i said?

You started a topic that stated ' are Volvo buses safe' and then went to say they are coffins because of a dozen fire incidents. What i was trying to say was the whole lot of wheels that we see on the roads are unsafe including the roads itself. And for that very season we cannot yet burn Volvo down yet.

If AL/TATA could run at the speeds at which volvos are run, i'm sure we would have by now 'got used' to buses getting burnt. Unfortunatly right now its only the Volvos, Benz and the few Scanias that can do it now.

Originally Posted by suresh_gs

How many times in the past, we have seen drivers change gears without depressing the clutch pedal. Truly robust gear box.

The thing is that we believe we are the only ones that sees it. There are lot more worse roads in the world where vehicle maintenance is v.difficult due to margins earned or the remoteness of the place.

Originally Posted by a4anurag

As compared to Volvo, Tata/AL may be late in updating their products but they are trying, we must not forget the sales of Volvo when compared to Tata/AL. Volvo sells worldwide but majority of Tata/AL come from India. Revenue generated is high so is the R&D done so beret are the products.

I can bet my wage and say Volvo didnt have the mentality of AL/TATA when they started off. If they had their mentality they would still have been making cars in Gothenburg and not be known as a world renowned auto giant.

[anjan_c2007]

Originally Posted by prmd_cochin

Disagree on the topic moving on a tangent or disagreeing with what i said?

You started a topic that stated ' are Volvo buses safe' and then went to say they are coffins because of a dozen fire incidents. What i was trying to say was the whole lot of wheels that we see on the roads are unsafe including the roads itself. And for that very season we cannot yet burn Volvo down yet.

If AL/TATA could run at the speeds at which volvos are run, i'm sure we would have by now 'got used' to buses getting burnt. Unfortunatly right now its only the Volvos, Benz and the few Scanias that can do it now.



The thing is that we believe we are the only ones that sees it. There are lot more worse roads in the world where vehicle maintenance is v.difficult due to margins earned or the remoteness of the place.



I can bet my wage and say Volvo didnt have the mentality of AL/TATA when they started off. If they had their mentality they would still have been making cars in Gothenburg and not be known as a world renowned auto giant.

Please use logic while debating:

You had alleged that I was on the payroll of Tata/AL in your first reply to my post. Do you know that this is bad in law to make such frivolous, mischievous and criminal allegations?

I had complained to the Moderator and got that sentence removed.

Many of us are not able to follow what you exactly mean to say. And your replies defy any logic whatsoever.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by prmd_cochin

Disagree on the topic moving on a tangent or disagreeing with what i said?

We are going here and it is becoming more of a blame-game on each other rather than discussing about Volvo's and Tata's.

Lets get back to the topic.

Thanks.

[mohandas]

Sorry, but I do not see anything wrong in what Mr prmd_cochin has said. I also felt the topic little biased.

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

Please use logic while debating:

You had alleged that I was on the payroll of Tata/AL in your first reply to my post. Do you know that this is bad in law to make such frivolous, mischievous and criminal allegations?

I had complained to the Moderator and got that sentence removed.

Many of us are not able to follow what you exactly mean to say. And your replies defy any logic whatsoever.

[audioholic]

Now where is this thread heading to? Lets come to a uniform conclusion rather than dragging it into accusations and comparisons with different brands. The Tatas and Leylands are definitely the lifeline of the transport industry from a long time and they shall remain to be. The premium segment is just a fraction of the entire fleet in the country.

At the same time, as I repeatedly said, I don't believe its got anything to do with the brand or the bus design that has to be blamed. Its just that these buses are not driven and maintained the way it should ideally be. Unless that is done, no manufacturer or no design can prevent such mishaps.