[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Sorry to be picky but the Mig-21 and the F-104 met more than just once in the 1971 war both Pakistani as well as Indian Sources confirm.

The starfighter lost everytime, here are some articles:

Thank you Foxbat. You're not being picky but helpful. Thanks for sharing this. The super thin very small wing gave the Starfighter its acceleration but was also its bane in maneuverability and landing speeds.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

A little anorak fact on the F104 Starfighter. Its nickname was widow-maker. It suffered from many fatal crashes with all airforces it flew with. There is even a conspiracy theory around its design and subsequent crashes.

Amongst its victim pilots was the son of the then West German Defence Minister!

[V.Narayan]

In what is one of the most graphic and honest accounts of the war, PVS Jagan Mohan and Samir Chopra’s The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965 (Manohar Books, 2005) writes about the confirmed shooting down of a Starfighter by a Dassault Mystere IV flown by Squadron Leader AB Devayya. I quote below the book review by Rakesh Sinha and Shiv Aroor verbatim


Quote Opens, " Squadron Leader A B Devayya became one of the war’s great mysteries. While raiding Sargodha, Devayya’s Mystere was targeted by a Starfighter. “But Devayya had survived the attack and his aircraft was still flyable. He could either fly back home or eject if things worsened with the aircraft. A third option was to fight it out... The Starfighter was in a steep turn, just a couple of hundred feet above ground level, as the turning Mystere shot away its controls.” Devayya never returned from Sargodha.

“In 1972, PAF officials told John Fricker (PAF’s war-historian) that a Mystere had shot the Starfighter down and it was not as earlier claimed, an ‘accident’. Fricker reported the incident as a loss to a Mystere. There lay a mystery. None of the Mystere pilots that day had reported air combat and certainly not with a Starfighter. But two Mysteres were lost over Sargodha. The one lost in the morning, roughly coinciding with the timing reported by Fricker, was Devayya’s.

“After receiving letters of confirmation from ‘Omi’ Taneja, the Indian government came to the conclusion that Amjad Hussain (the Starfighter pilot) was shot down by Devayya, who himself crashed soon after. Devayya’s widow Sundari Devayya received the fifth and the last Maha Vir Chakra (MVC) awarded to the air force for the 1965 war in April 1988, almost 23 years after the event.” " Quote Closes.

The Dassault Mystere was a trans-sonic fighter bomber of a whole generation earlier to the Lockheed Starfighter in technology and performance. The fact that Devayya succeeded in shooting it down is like a Toyota Corrolla and a BMW3 series getting onto a track race and the Corolla winning. And he did this after his aircraft had suffered some damage. A big tribute to Devayya's flying skills, courage and dedication to duty.



Dassault Mystere IV: Maximum Speed 1120 kmph lo-lo; 990 kmph hi-hi; initial climb rate 45 metres/second; Combat ceiling 40,000'; combat radius in interception mode ~350 kms. Engine - 3500 kgp Hispana Suiza Verdun 350 turbojet; Weights - clean 8500 kgs (clean means w/o any external stores) & fully loaded 9500 kgs; Power to Weight ratio clean 0.41 (too low, leads to limited sustained turning ability); Wing loading at clean weight 54 lbs/ square foot (nice and low, this aids maneuverability); Armament 2 x 30mm cannons and up to 1000 kgs of bombs/rockets


Starfighter: Maximum Speed 2330 kmph hi-hi; initial climb rate 245 metres/second; Combat ceiling 58,000'; combat radius in interception mode ~670kms. Engine - 7165 kgp General Electric J79 turbojet; Weights - clean 9365 kgs (clean means w/o any external stores) & fully loaded 13,000 kgs; Power to Weight ratio clean 0.77; Wing loading at clean weight 105 lbs/ square foot (too high -leads to poor maneuverability); Armament 6 barrel 20mm cannon and up to ~2000 kgs of bombs/rockets/Air-Air missiles


Squadron Leader AB Devayya, MVC in the cockpit of a Mystere

[Jeroen]

Not wanting to be offensive, but I don't find this graphic at all. War and peace is more graphic then this. i don't know if it is honest and what is the data on which the Indian government based their conclusion. No idea, there isn't a single piece of independent verifiable data.

I really don't know what happened here, this does not give a shred of evidence one way or another. I do know one thing though. Since the time men went to war the confirmed successes have vastly outnumbered the number of confirmed losses. Any war, any period, any military service. Check for instance the Korean war. The Americans claimed to have shot many more MIGs than the Koreans claimed to have ever owned.

The painful truth is of course that in any war the only winner is the party who did not lose and surrender, or did not get annihilated. History has shown that it is not necessarily the same as the one claiming moral victory or any victory for that matter. All in the eye of the beholder.

Best not to get into a war in the first place. I enjoy reading about war planes, purely because of their technical capabilities, the research and innovation that went into it. But I deplore their use, or admiration for that use. There have been reasons for deploying the military, but I prefer to see that as an extremely regrettable necessity then anything else.

Jeroen

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Not wanting to be offensive, but I don't find this graphic at all...... i don't know if it is honest and what is the data on which the Indian government based their conclusion. No idea, there isn't a single piece of independent verifiable data.

I really don't know what happened here, this does not give a shred of evidence one way or another.

Jeroen, thank you for raising your doubts which are only natural. You may want to read the book which can be bought on line.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

i don't know if it is honest and what is the data on which the Indian government based their conclusion. No idea, there isn't a single piece of independent verifiable data.

Jeroen

If every kill has to be independently(a third non participating observer) verified there would hardly be any air to air kills awarded to pilots.

Air Combat Information Group is an independent group on air combat and they list this incident as a confirmed kill on their data base:

Date Unit Aircraft Aircrew Weapon Victim Unit

7Sep65 1 Sqn Mystére IVA A.B.Devayya 30mm F-104A 9Sqn/PAF (pilot A.Hussain)

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_327.shtml


Here is a Pakistani Website that confirms the loss of the F-104 by the Mystere:

The Mystere then began to dogfight with the Starfighter, which used its superior climb and acceleration to lift the combat from ground level to about 7,000 feet to gain room for manoeuvre. Hussain fired his cannons and was delighted to see the shell hit the Mystere. The Mystere pilot showed commendable courage in staying with the F-104, and despite being mortally wounded, scored several cannon strikes on the Starfighter. Flight Lieutenant Amjad Hussain managed to eject safely and reached his Base. This was the first and only Starfighter to be lost through enemy action in the 1965 war.

http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/may/f-104.htm

Here is another article in a Pakistani News Website:

One Mystere pilot, Devayya, shot down a F104 over Sargodha even though he had received plenty hits and succumbed finally but after shooting down the F104.

http://www.dawn.com/news/873611/paki...orce-rejoinder

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Jeroen, thank you for raising your doubts which are only natural. You may want to read the book which can be bought on line.

Thanks, but Im not that interested who was supposed to be the hero, or whose son or daughter crashed. Its all a terrible waste no matter what. I am highly skeptical of any individual heroic accounts in any war in any period in any service. And irrespective of those individual cases the only thing that matters for mankind is the outcome of those wars. Which by their very nature are totally in the eye of the beholder. One guys hero is the other guy's villain.

Im much more inclined to read books about understanding and improving society at large, ie preventing war if anything. I have always been fascinated by military machinery, be it boats, tanks, planes whatever. But as I stated before, I deplore their application.

On a more positive note, i have just attended a lecture by Kjell Nordstrom in Stockholm, see also his latest book http://www.urbanexpress.se/en/book-a-lecture/

Believe it or not, but we are living in the age of the fewest wars and war casualties. To put it differently, your outlook on life is determined by what you read. I know many might not agree, but how much do they really read?

Jeroen

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

If every kill has to be independently(a third non participating observer) verified there would hardly be any air to air kills awarded to pilots url]

glad to see we are in full alignment that this whole business of awarding pilots for killing is total and utter non sense! All data is pretty much fake and serves more as war propaganda. Whole libraries have been written on how factual incorrect war propaganda is and has been, always! Remarkably, to date, helped by internet and google, there are still plenty sad individuals left that want to prove x shot down y, or similar. As if it is of any interest or relevance.

Truth is that no matter what the family and friends of the guy who got killed will be grieving. And the family of the guy who survived will call him a hero. But hero and victim are relevant terms. It all depends on your point of view and maybe your beliefs.

Im very carefully not taking any sides. Look at this Jordan pilot who got burned by IS. He was dropping bombs on somebodies sons and daughters. Now his family want all of IS, fathers, sons, daughters and sons annihilated. If it was my son that got killed/burned I would most likely feel the same. You go figure who am I referring to? My son the pilot, or my son on the ground who got bombed?

Its all a matter of perspective and who you feel morally superior to.
Jeroen

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Truth is that no matter what the family and friends of the guy who got killed will be grieving. And the family of the guy who survived will call him a hero. But hero and victim are relevant terms. It all depends on your point of view and maybe your beliefs.

Im very carefully not taking any sides. Look at this Jordan pilot who got burned by IS. He was dropping bombs on somebodies sons and daughters. Now his family want all of IS, fathers, sons, daughters and sons annihilated. If it was my son that got killed/burned I would most likely feel the same. You go figure who am I referring to? My son the pilot, or my son on the ground who got bombed?

Its all a matter of perspective and who you feel morally superior to.
Jeroen

Dear Jeroen, Thank you for these wise words. While your post pinched my ego you are right in what you say. In my future articles on aircraft I will stay away from the kill & victories business even though it tickles the boy in us. It has no place on a balanced and high quality web site like Team BHP. Kind regards, Narayan

[drift2race]

Its quite a pity that we could do roughly 50 years earlier in such a small time frame is not even achievable right now. While the LCA is the pride of indigenous manufacturing by India, it has been over 30 years in the making & that too with engines supplied from outside the country.

Its high time India takes notice of its failing defense infrastructure & ramp up R&D accordingly . Procuring weapons from other countries is only a short term solution , you never know when something designed in house may be much better than the imported equipment.

Also a very entertaining article, thanks for sharing.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by drift2race

Its quite a pity that we could do roughly 50 years earlier in such a small time frame is not even achievable right now. While the LCA is the pride of indigenous manufacturing by India, it has been over 30 years in the making & that too with engines supplied from outside the country.

Thats quite a simplistic statement to make without understanding in detail the whole problem.

M&M has experience in designing and manufaturing SUV's for many decades but still their latest SUV cannot be expected to compete with a Range Rover or Q7 or even smaller cheaper SUVs.

Similarly the IAF wants HAL to suddenly develop a plane to compete with Dassault, Sukhoi, Mig or General Dynamics. Or perhaps there is a strong foreign arms lobby which only wants to import arms.

Here is a detailed analysis by TorqueCurve:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/commer...ml#post3633766

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by drift2race

Its quite a pity that we could do roughly 50 years earlier in such a small time frame is not even achievable right now. While the LCA is the pride of indigenous manufacturing by India, it has been over 30 years in the making & that too with engines supplied from outside the country.

Also a very entertaining article, thanks for sharing.

Dear @drift2race, Development is an enormously complex endeavor. LCA has taken 30 years but it should soon be in full operational service and is in my opinion a very good aircraft at least from what is available in the public domain. Lets celebrate that.

When the Americans took to building their first ever aircraft carrier USS Saratoga it took an advanced nation like them 7 years to complete her. These things take time. The IAF made the primary mistake in the 1980s of seeking too much in the specifications without thinking 'but what are our design capabilities'. But now, at long last, the LCA is almost ready. The Naval version of the LCA being tested on a ramp.

[Dieselritzer]

Just to add something interesting on this topic, my friends great grand father was the first Indian to bomb Berlin. He was part of the Royal Airforce.

His name was Dattatray Laxman Patwardhan.

[peterjim13]

Sharing an interesting read from LISTVERSE.

Their article on Weapons that backfired has the famous Sabre and Starfighters. It talks about how US dumped these paper tigers on to countries like Pakistan, Jordan, Spain etc and had them suffer.

http://listverse.com/2015/03/19/10-w...ired-horribly/

I will wait for Narayan Sirs comment on these. They even talk about how indian fighters were far better than the ones of the century series with Pakistan and how they couldnt achieve superiority in the air during the 1971 war.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by peterjim13

...Their article on Weapons that backfired has the famous Sabre and Starfighters. It talks about how US dumped these paper tigers on to countries like Pakistan, Jordan, Spain etc and had them suffer....

Actually, after the 1962 Indo-China war, Starfigher was what India really wanted! It was forced to purchase the MiG 21 because of US's refusal to sell the Starfighter to India!

Read pages 21 and 22 of this document:

http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bi...hapter%201.pdf