[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

What khichdi the NAvy has in its fleet now!!! American P-8s for maritime surveillance and MH-60Rs in ASW/ASuW/SAR role. Russian MiG-29Ks for fleet air defence & Ka-31s for AEW. The next fighter purchase will either be the Super Hornet or the Rafale M. How hard will it be fro these different systems to integrated all systems for a network centric warfare!!!

Yes an undesirable mish-mash. Integrating the electronics is a challenge. The Navy has an internal department that specializes in developing its own software and hardware to make the integration work. It was set up in the late 1970s to integrate the weapon systems on the indigenous Godavari class frigates. The MiG-29K and Ka-31 represent the compulsion (and lack of options then) of c.2000 when INS Vikramaditya was being negotiated. The P-8I and MH-60R represent the options and practical lack of alternative machines today. Even today there is no rotary wing alternative to the Ka-31. I still believe we should go for the Rafale for both the IAF and the IN. The maintenance infrastructure, training, logistics is a massive challenge for each new aircraft type.

[V.Narayan]

MH-60R ASW helicopter deal finally signed. Deliveries from 2021. 24 helicopters.

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicop...138387.article

Good to see we closed this on time. The MH-60R Seahawk is the most proven and matured of ASW helicopters in service today. with the USN planning to keep it till 2040 we can be assured of logistics and training support for a long time. They replace the venerable Westland Seaking which first entered service in 1971. The IN has clearly moved firmly and boldly towards American sourcing and with good reason. As far as naval aviation goes the USN is so far ahead of the rest of the world's navies that the next 9 slots are empty. Might as well be aligned with the best.

[DrPriyankT]

This question I am going to put may be a wild one.

Why can't the Indian navy depute a few fighter jet detachments (2-3) in the north east, Rajasthan and in the Himalayas, to give our naval aviators experience of operations in varied terrains. Currently when our carrier goes out to sea, it carries no more than 20 fighters. The remainder 20-24 stay back at Goa. Let us assume half of them are under maintenance at Goa. The remainder few can surely be deputed to our countries varied terrains for honing the skill of our naval aviators. The Americans have been training their pilots in the deserts and mountains of California and Nevada at the NAS Miramar and NAS Fallon respectively.

Our Airforce pilots already have maritime deployments with the Jaguars at Jamnagar specially stationed for maritime operations and the sukhois at Thanjavur specially based for maritime missions. Hence why don't naval aviators get training over mountains or forests or deserts.

For a fanboy like me, it would be so cool to see a combat air patrol over Ladakh by a couple of IN Mig-29K's as a part of their training and operational detachment.

[DrPriyankT]

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

This question I am going to put may be a wild one.

Why can't the Indian navy depute a few fighter jet detachments (2-3) in the north east, Rajasthan and in the Himalayas, to give our naval aviators experience of operations in varied terrains. Currently when our carrier goes out to sea, it carries no more than 20 fighters. The remainder 20-24 stay back at Goa. Let us assume half of them are under maintenance at Goa. The remainder few can surely be deputed to our countries varied terrains for honing the skill of our naval aviators. The Americans have been training their pilots in the deserts and mountains of California and Nevada at the NAS Miramar and NAS Fallon respectively.

Our Airforce pilots already have maritime deployments with the Jaguars at Jamnagar specially stationed for maritime operations and the sukhois at Thanjavur specially based for maritime missions. Hence why don't naval aviators get training over mountains or forests or deserts.

For a fanboy like me, it would be so cool to see a combat air patrol over Ladakh by a couple of IN Mig-29K's as a part of their training and operational detachment.

It seems General Ravat too has read our forum. Please have a look at the link pasted.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...mpression=true

[DrPriyankT]

This is what the air chief ACM Bhadouria had to say about the idea of naval fighters being deployed in conjunction with the IAF.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ani...171449%3famp=1

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

Why can't the Indian navy depute a few fighter jet detachments (2-3) in the north east, Rajasthan and in the Himalayas, to give our naval aviators experience of operations in varied terrains.

You make an interesting point. Some historical background --- In 1965 the Seahawks flew with the IAF - about two dozen of them as INS Vikrant was docked for a planned refit. In 1971 a few IN pilots were seconded to an IAF Hunter squadron. One of them was Arun Prakash who later commanded the INAS300 when it converted to Sea Harriers and later was the Naval Chief. Later in the early 1970s one Gnat pilot was seconded to INAS300 aboard INS Vikrant and even achieved his Deck Landing Qualification. That pilot stated quite honestly that landing on the deck was the apex of his skill as a pilot. Some big brass at Air HQ did not like that statement and no further secondments followed!

Flying lo-lo over varied terrain will be useful experience. I hope they do it. Inter-service team work works very well at junior levels. It is the brass that gets into knots over territory. Sad to say this is most acute within the IAF probably because they see their domain {air} intruded upon by the other two.

[bimal_67]

I have been following this thread keenly out of interest and am fascinated by the depth of knowledge of Team BHP members in aviation matters.

Hope many of you might have come across this blog by an ex navy officer, which I found interesting. Leaving the link for reference: -

https://kaypius.com/

The latest article is on the NUH : https://kaypius.com/2020/05/18/make-...self-reliance/

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

This question I am going to put may be a wild one.

Why can't the Indian navy depute a few fighter jet detachments (2-3) in the north east, Rajasthan and in the Himalayas, to give our naval aviators experience of operations in varied terrains. Currently when our carrier goes out to sea, it carries no more than 20 fighters.

I do remember reading one of in Vice Admiral Hiranandani's "Transition to..." series of books that the Navy's 310 Sqdn Alizes, which had some very sophisticated submarine tracking equipment, were deployed to track and find Pakistani radar stations in support of the IAF(something which the same Naval squadron repeated in 1999 with Do228s). The Alizes would fly along the border to pinpoint the location of Pakistani radars. At one point it was even considered to use Alizes in the strike role- using rockets and bombs. But it was considered too risky considering how slow Alizes flew.

As Narayan sir said, Navy Hawker Sea Hawk detachments were deployed in Jamnagar(and Bombay)in the 65 war. A PAF B-57 strike narrowly missed hitting them in Jamnagar. A retaliatory strike by Sea Hawks on Badin radar station in Pakistan was inexplicably cancelled as per Vice Admiral Pasricha's book on IN Sea Hawks.

In the present, before the MiG-29Ks were commissioned, future Naval Fulcrum pilots were deputed to IAF MiG-29 squadrons to fly and train on IAF Fulcrums.

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

...

As Narayan sir said, Navy Hawker Sea Hawk detachments were deployed in Jamnagar(and Bombay)in the 65 war. A PAF B-57 strike narrowly missed hitting them in Jamnagar. A retaliatory strike by Sea Hawks on Badin radar station in Pakistan was inexplicably cancelled as per Vice Admiral Pasricha's book on IN Sea Hawks....

Why was the retaliatory attack cancelled?

Just an hypothetical question: What is the equipment wise (not structurally or the those needed to operate an aircraft from a carrier) difference between the MiG-29K and the UPGs? Would IN be able to acquire the 60 odd IAF MiG-29s and with minimum modifications, operate them from its land-based airports?
I guess the Naval pilots should be in a position to fly the Airforce MiGs and vice versa (only from shore-bases) if an unified command is created in the future to be operated from island bases or even from new bases that might be created in the future.

[DrPriyankT]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

I do remember reading one of in Vice Admiral Hiranandani's "Transition to..." series of books that the Navy's 310 Sqdn Alizes, which had some very sophisticated submarine tracking equipment, were deployed to track and find Pakistani radar stations in support of the IAF(something which the same Naval squadron repeated in 1999 with Do228s). The Alizes would fly along the border to pinpoint the location of Pakistani radars. At one point it was even considered to use Alizes in the strike role- using rockets and bombs. But it was considered too risky considering how slow Alizes flew.

As Narayan sir said, Navy Hawker Sea Hawk detachments were deployed in Jamnagar(and Bombay)in the 65 war. A PAF B-57 strike narrowly missed hitting them in Jamnagar. A retaliatory strike by Sea Hawks on Badin radar station in Pakistan was inexplicably cancelled as per Vice Admiral Pasricha's book on IN Sea Hawks.

In the present, before the MiG-29Ks were commissioned, future Naval Fulcrum pilots were deputed to IAF MiG-29 squadrons to fly and train on IAF Fulcrums.

Sir, an interesting article on how the alizes were used during 1965 war. Its a must read for war history buffs.

https://www.indiatoday.in/news-analy...746-2020-05-22

[V.Narayan]

When the Indian Navy flew over the desert & mountains

https://www.indiatoday.in/news-analy...746-2020-05-22

Interesting this article should have popped up just as our discussion above was rolling. Worth a read.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by AlphaKilo

Why was the retaliatory attack cancelled?

No reason was given. But I assume it probably was because, just like the Alizes, the Sea Hawks would have been sitting ducks against PAF interceptors. Just like how IAF Vampires didn't have a a chance and were lost to PAF Sabres on the opening day of the 1965 war, the straight winged Seahawks just didn't have the speed and maneuverability to take on PAF Sabres. The Sea Hawks were apparently so slow that they couldn't even catch a Canberra in level flight!!!!

What is interesting about that incident on 06 Sep 1965 is that on the day PAF B-57s struck Jamnagar, two IN Sea Hawks on ORP had just been asked to stand down just before the PAF Canberras showed up. Had the Sea Hawks been scrambled , they might have been able to take on the PAF B-57s. The planned strike on Badin radar station by IN Seahawks was planned for the dawn of 07 Sep 1965. After this incident the Sea Hawk detachment moved to Bombay enroute to Goa, but were ordered to stay for the city's Defence. The detachment was again sent to Jamnagar to locate and attack the fleet of Pakistan Navy ships that had bombarded Dwarka's coastline the previous night. But they couldn't locate the Pakistani fleet and were again sent back to Bombay.

The Badin radar station was later famously struck on 21 Sep 1965 by an IAF Canberra B(I)58 formation led by the legendary IAF Canberra pilot - Wg Cdr Peter Wilson. The decision to strike Badin radar station had gained top most priority as a PAF Sabre guided by that radar station shot down an Indian civilian Beechcraft that was carrying Gujarat CM Balwant Rai Mehta couple of days earlier.

[locusjag]

The Indian Navy's P8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft was seen flying over the Ladakh region yesterday-
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/expl...china-standoff

The article also mentions the P8s as having helped during the Doklam crisis and in the aftermath of the Pulwama blast.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by locusjag

The Indian Navy's P8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft was seen flying over the Ladakh region yesterday-
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/expl...china-standoff

The article also mentions the P8s as having helped during the Doklam crisis and in the aftermath of the Pulwama blast.

They are by a long stretch the most sophisticated electronic surveillance aircraft in India's inventory. Some of the equipment can be used just as well over mountains as it can be over the sea. Of course certain equipment such as sonobuoys have no role but a lot of the other $300 million worth of electronics does.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

They are by a long stretch the most sophisticated electronic surveillance aircraft in India's inventory. Some of the equipment can be used just as well over mountains as it can be over the sea. Of course certain equipment such as sonobuoys have no role but a lot of the other $300 million worth of electronics does.

Goes back to the whole massive debate raging in the Pentagon regarding the use of the Poseidon for ISR beyond the marine domain. It's rankling feathers in the USAF heirarchy and the USN top brass.

But I think there's a point to be made, the sensors are there, what's to stop you from using it that way. Eventually I think what you'll see is Boeing see the opportunity and offer a less overtly marine focused variant, more in their interests and probably that way you'll avoid the turf war aspect. USAF can be happy with their own non marine P-8's, call them Hades if you will if they're so far removed from the maritime domain.