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Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The Armed forces have been consistently treated with disdain.

This hits all too real sadly.

Originally Posted by DragonHawk

HAL`s way of working is more like come up with an aircraft and force customers to buy it rather build something which customer wants. I wonder what kind of market research these guys employ. Best example is weaponised Hawk AJT and instead of putting time and effort of these, they should rather give 100% on projects which our armed forces is interested on. With HTT40, things are slowly changing but still a long way to go.

I think you can tell that those in charge there still think like they're from the 70s and 80s. As in whatever they develop, the market will have to accept it otherwise they'll force it down our throats. To me, to borrow an automotive analogy, it's a bit akin to how inept the HM leadership were. Just tone deaf to the actual market. And the sad issue is I bet the instinct for these dinosaurs in upper management there is to double down on their outdated ways rather than smell the roses and move with the tide. Honestly the most radical thing I'd ask for that could change things maybe is to seed the board and upper management with folks from Maruti - if that isn't a case study in how to at least respond favourably to the customer and the market conditions then I don't know what is. It's pretty evident that desperation has led to clutching at straws here.

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Seems (to me) that the HAL copter is going to be forced down INs throat, and what we (the aam admi) are seeing is the last ditch flailing of the IN before the inevitable.

Meh, I was worried this would be the case. That HAL would cry foul and get some political overlord to stump the IN with whatever tripe they're serving this time. What a mess. I have little to no sympathy for HAL. The jaundiced view they have in my eyes is entirely self inflicted from the litany of bad products, poor reliability, awful management and their simply atrocious attitude towards their primary customer. They're an agency that fits the old trope of Indian bureaucracy: it's always they who're doing YOU the favour by providing you their service and that you should be nothing but grateful that HAL has deigned fit to grace you in such a manner.
If only the rhetorical horse they were on were real, I'd gladly yank the stirrup so the damn HAL leadership could fall into the mountain of muck they've left behind over the years and see what their track record actually is..

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The attitudes of HAL towards their customers and partners in shockingly callous and with no sense that they exist to serve the customer or the nation. Deep repair or refit of an aircraft that should take 60 days can take a year - I speak from direct experience - with no remorse. Take it or leave it. I shall refrain from sharing worse. The Armed forces have been consistently treated with disdain.
+1 to that

Going really off-topic here, the callous attitude of HAL towards customers was fully demonstrated when HAL Dhruvs were sold to the Ecuadorean Air Force in which 4 out of 7 helicopters crashed (2 pilot error + 2 apparently due to non-maintenance). Ecuador immediately grounded the remaining helicopters (I believe the helicopters are still stored at Guayaquil) and blamed HAL for not providing spares on time which led to a legal battle in the courts. I know all this because I had been to Ecuador back in 2018 and some well-informed folks there had some pretty strong opinions on the HAL Dhruv (ironically some less well-informed folks thought it was a Chinese helicopter). Perhaps this likely affected potential future sales of HAL Dhruvs in other Latin American countries.

Offcourse, that said, the Dhruv has been successfully deployed by the Indian armed forces, so not sure who to believe here!

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Chinese carrier borne AWACS spotted flying

Looks like the Chinese KJ-600 AWACS has been spotted in flight
REF:https://twitter.com/scramble_nl/stat...02158029934598

Multiple rumours are circulating that the Xi'an Aircraft Industrial Corporation (XAC) KJ-600 AWACS has made its maiden flight from Xi’an-Yanliang on 29 August 2020.

This force multiplier aircraft is a further development from the JYZ-01 Technology Demonstrator and a mock-up of this AWACS was used for some years on the aircraft carrier mock-up facility in southern Wuhan for fitment checks.

Based on the Y-7, which is based on the An-26, the main change is the big radar disc on top of the fuselage. Also, and again similar to the E-2 Hawkeye, the aircraft features four vertical tails. The aircraft is powered by powerful engines (5,100 Hp WJ-6C?) that rotate six bladed propellers.

For takeoff from a carrier the aircraft will be assisted by a catapult, which will be introduced on the new (third) aircraft carrier (CATOBAR operations, Catapult Assisted Take-Off Barrier Arrested Recovery). Xi'an Aircraft Industrial Corporation also produces the H-6 bomber and the Y-20 transport aircraft in addition to the MA60/600-series and the, soon to be flying, MA700 passenger aircraft. The factory is located at the same air base that is used by the Chinese (by CFTE) for all initial flight testing of new aircraft.

Now for those of you wondering - yes it absolutely looks like a Grumman E-2 Hawkeye clone (the American carrier borne AWACS). If indeed the grainy photo is a flying prototype, this bodes ominously in my opinion - I would imagine that this is a small but tangible proof that an imminent PLAN carrier will incorporate CATOBAR capability. I imagine the USN, JMSDF, ROKN and IN will be watching this closely.

Such a capability would give embarked PLAN carrier groups quite a competent organic radar bubble extending in all domains over said carrier group. In turn the data picture from said AWAC could greatly enhance the ability of the PLAN air wing beyond fleet area air defence towards more proactive operation. In fact more than that, the scenario where this PLAN AWAC is buzzing about overhead would implicitly mean the PLAN is able to fling more meaningfully combat loaded naval fighters off towards distant targets, further extending their reach so to speak. Though it remains to be seen whether the portly old J-15 can take being yanked along by a catapult. Surely not, they Must have a new airframe in the works then to go with the KJ-600 to form a CATOBAR suitable air wing

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by ads11

Now for those of you wondering - yes it absolutely looks like a Grumman E-2 Hawkeye clone (the American carrier borne AWACS). If indeed the grainy photo is a flying prototype, this bodes ominously in my opinion - I would imagine that this is a small but tangible proof that an imminent PLAN carrier will incorporate CATOBAR capability. I imagine the USN, JMSDF, ROKN and IN will be watching this closely.

I see some design similarities to the cancelled Yak-44 as well, especially the nose. The Yak-44 did not proceed beyond a full scale mockup but Chinese could well have stolen/bough the design from the Russians and then merged the E-2 design with the Yak-44.
Yak-44:


E-2C:


If this new carrier based PLAN AWACS as capable as is being claimed, it will be a quantum leap in PLAN surveillance capabilities - something which even the Soviet Navy did not have during it's glory days.

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Originally Posted by skanchan95

I see some design similarities to the cancelled Yak-44 as well, especially the nose..

If this new carrier based PLAN AWACS as capable as is being claimed, it will be a quantum leap in PLAN surveillance capabilities - something which even the Soviet Navy did not have during it's glory days.

I wasn't aware the Soviets had their own facsimile - thanks for that! The Chinese could very well have gotten their hands on whatever documents there were about the Yak-44 for their KJ-600. Truth be told Soviet carrier capability was never anything more than a crude approximation of NATO capability in that regard. They only went and made the ships I suppose for the optics - in truth their naval strength has always been in their subsurface capability and the missile boats they need to defend their coastal waters. Other than that they never truly had reason to develop a first rate blue water capability.

I think other than the Americans and the French, when it comes to AWAC capability from carriers the solution has been to have a rotary wing platform. I believe the Royal Navy have a system called Crowsnest they use off of a Merlin helicopter.


I believe the IN relies on the Kamov-31 with a big old radar under it's belly for the same purpose.

Either way, won't be anywhere near the capability the PLAN would hypothetically achieve with their own AWACS. Till that time I imagine Indian shore based assets would be the workaround for the IN considering our ships won't be engaging way beyond the immediate sphere of territorial waters.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by ads11

I wasn't aware the Soviets had their own facsimile - thanks for that! The Chinese could very well have gotten their hands on whatever documents there were about the Yak-44 for their KJ-600. Truth be told Soviet carrier capability was never anything more than a crude approximation of NATO capability in that regard. They only went and made the ships I suppose for the optics - in truth their naval strength has always been in their subsurface capability and the missile boats they need to defend their coastal waters. Other than that they never truly had reason to develop a first rate blue water capability.

The Yak-44 was actually designed and built to operate from new nuclear powered Ulyanovsk class of super carriers. The first ship - Ulyanovsk was under construction when the Soviet Union collapsed and the incomplete ship was scrapped soon after.

The carrier was to be equipped with a ski jump as well as two steam catapults that could launch fully loaded aircraft, representing a major advance over the Kuznetsov class, which could only launch high performance fighters from their ski-jumps. The Yak-44 AEW would have used the catapult to launch from the Ulyanovsk.

Originally Posted by ads11

I think other than the Americans and the French, when it comes to AWAC capability from carriers the solution has been to have a rotary wing platform. I believe the Royal Navy have a system called Crowsnest they use off of a Merlin helicopter.

The Brits lost the plot after the retirement of their fixed wing, carrier based AEW Fairey Gannets. The Royal Navy in the late 70s, in the process of introducing a new type of small aircraft carrier that were incapable of operating conventional fixed-wing aircraft, lacked an embedded AEW platform that could be used as part of the carrier task group. The lack of carrier based AEW that in the Falklands War meant that the RN Task Force was reliant on shipborne air search in which the Royal Navy lost four ships due to lack of adequate early warning on incoming Argentine strikers.

As a consequence, the Westland Sea King helicopter was modified to incorporate an airborne radar system for use in the AEW role from the carriers and they have continued on with Rotary AEWs since then. There was a proposal to have an AEW variant of the Osprey. I don't know what happened to it.

Originally Posted by ads11

I believe the IN relies on the Kamov-31 with a big old radar under it's belly for the same purpose.

Didn't the US make an initial proposal to sell the USS Kitty Hawk and E-2s to the Indian Navy in the mid or early 2000s long with the P-3s? The proposal was reportedly rejected as the Kitty Hawk was considered too old, but we happily took up the USN Trenton which again was an old ship!!!! May be it wold not have been a wise move to acquire the Kitty Hawk, but all this pinches even more when the new INS Vikrant has got delayed even more and Navy not 'happy' with the the Naval Fulcrums.

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Originally Posted by skanchan95

The Yak-44 was actually designed and built to operate from new nuclear powered Ulyanovsk class of super carriers.

The carrier was to be equipped with a ski jump as well as two steam catapults ..

Yeah I figured it would be based on the Ulyanovsk. Based on the renders it's a curious thing, what with it's combination of ski jump up front and catapults on it's angled deck. Part of me wishes it had come to fruition just to see how such an intriguing mix would've played out in real life. In fact continuing on the theme of hybrid Russian supercarrier vapourware, the Shtorm class not only keeps the ski jump and cat and trap combo but it also includes the dual island design brought to the fore by the Queen Liz!

Originally Posted by skanchan95

The Brits lost the plot after the retirement of their fixed wing, carrier based AEW Fairey Gannets... The lack of carrier based AEW that in the Falklands War meant that the RN Task Force was reliant on shipborne air search in which the Royal Navy lost four ships due to lack of adequate early warning on incoming Argentine strikers.

As a consequence, the Westland Sea King helicopter was modified to incorporate an airborne radar system for use in the AEW role from the carriers and they have continued on with Rotary AEWs since then. There was a proposal to have an AEW variant of the Osprey. I don't know what happened to it.

Gosh the Fairey Gannet is an ugly looking thing. It doesn't surprise me that a British defence white paper would leave a critical capability of theirs hollowed out. They seem to have made it an art form. I too have heard of proposals for an AEW Osprey. In fact I bet it's by the same mob who've been pushing for it to be the carrier onboard delivery platform going forward. Hard to imagine where they'd sling a big old radar dome what with the rotating engine nacelles and props. Maybe out the rear hatch? It surely can't be off the side, no way it can work with the props in forward flight config. Maybe it'll have big old jowls so to speak with AESA panels built into it.

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Didn't the US make an initial proposal to sell the USS Kitty Hawk and E-2s to the Indian Navy in the mid or early 2000s long with the P-3s? The proposal was reportedly rejected as the Kitty Hawk was considered too old, but we happily took up the USN Trenton which again was an old ship!!!! May be it wold not have been a wise move to acquire the Kitty Hawk, but all this pinches even more when the new INS Vikrant has got delayed even more and Navy not 'happy' with the the Naval Fulcrums.

Wait what?! There was a proposal to sell a U S NAVY nuclear supercarrier? To anyone that is?! It's shocking enough if that was the only fact, but to India of all places that too in the early 2000s?! This is insane, surely not? I mean sure going from a little old Centaur class STOVL carrier to a hulking nuclear flat top is some jump to say the least. I mean that could've totally cut the legs out from under domestic procurement programmes, given the likely sustainment costs for us but hoo boy would it have near instantly propelled IN capability to the pointy end of the charts. I'm staggered. Can someone else confirm if this was ever more than a feverish dream? Even the P-3s back then would've been an absolutely wonderful platform to have acquired (though in retrospect we did jump a grade and move onto the P-8s - which likely would've been delayed far more in the aforementioned scenario).

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by ads11

Wait what?! There was a proposal to sell a U S NAVY nuclear supercarrier? To anyone that is?! It's shocking enough if that was the only fact, but to India of all places that too in the early 2000s?! This is insane, surely not? I mean sure going from a little old Centaur class STOVL carrier to a hulking nuclear flat top is some jump to say the least. I mean that could've totally cut the legs out from under domestic procurement programmes, given the likely sustainment costs for us but hoo boy would it have near instantly propelled IN capability to the pointy end of the charts. I'm staggered. Can someone else confirm if this was ever more than a feverish dream?

I can't confirm this but doesn't seem too far fetched since the carrier was about to be retired to be scrapped most likely and is NOT a Nuclear Powered carrier. It is more than 60 years old now and would have served the Indian Navy for a very limited time with huge maintenance costs and would have forced India to buy sanction prone US warplanes.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by ads11

Yeah I figured it would be based on the Ulyanovsk. Based on the renders it's a curious thing, what with it's combination of ski jump up front and catapults on it's angled deck. Part of me wishes it had come to fruition just to see how such an intriguing mix would've played out in real life.

One thing is for sure, it would have given them the ability to launch not only the Yak-44 AWACS but also dedicated carrier based ground attack jets like the Carrier based variant of th Su-25. I na sense, have a complete air wing like the US Navy.

Originally Posted by ads11

Gosh the Fairey Gannet is an ugly looking thing. It doesn't surprise me that a British defence white paper would leave a critical capability of theirs hollowed out. They seem to have made it an art form. I too have heard of proposals for an AEW Osprey. In fact I bet it's by the same mob who've been pushing for it to be the carrier onboard delivery platform going forward. Hard to imagine where they'd sling a big old radar dome what with the rotating engine nacelles and props. Maybe out the rear hatch? It surely can't be off the side, no way it can work with the props in forward flight config. Maybe it'll have big old jowls so to speak with AESA panels built into it.

Something like this perhaps, with a smaller rotodome

Originally Posted by ads11

Wait what?! There was a proposal to sell a U S NAVY nuclear supercarrier? To anyone that is?! It's shocking enough if that was the only fact, but to India of all places that too in the early 2000s?! This is insane, surely not? I mean sure going from a little old Centaur class STOVL carrier to a hulking nuclear flat top is some jump to say the least.

That was the time when the relations began warming up again between the US and India. The Kitty Hawk offer was an on and off. I clearly remember reading about it. It was around the time when there was news about the INS Vikramaditya(former Adm Gorshkov) getting delayed in Russia and I suppose transfer of a readymade super carrier was carrot to ween us away from Russia. The P-3 offer was some time before the Navy opted for the P-8I.

Originally Posted by Foxbat

I can't confirm this but doesn't seem too far fetched since the carrier was about to be retired to be scrapped most likely and is NOT a Nuclear Powered carrier. It is more than 60 years old now and would have served the Indian Navy for a very limited time with huge maintenance costs and would have forced India to buy sanction prone US warplanes.

INS Jalashwa (former USS Trenton) is 52 years old and apart from a couple of accidents, has served the Navy well since its induction in 2008. It also took part in the Covid-related evacuations of Indian citizens from aboard. The Trenton was acquired primarily to Help the Navy in gaining and expanding its amphibious warfare capabilities. It was to serve as an example for future Indian LPD operations. But sadly, no such large LPD was designed or ordered from Indian shipbuilders since then!!!

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Originally Posted by Foxbat

I can't confirm this but doesn't seem too far fetched since the carrier was about to be retired to be scrapped most likely and is NOT a Nuclear Powered carrier. It is more than 60 years old now and would have served the Indian Navy for a very limited time with huge maintenance costs and would have forced India to buy sanction prone US warplanes.

Ah thank you, you're correct - I jumped the gun there. A conventional carrier makes Much more sense now. That being said - absolutely, it would've been enormously expensive to operate and would've locked us into the American sphere solely at least from a naval platforms perspective.

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Something like this perhaps, with a smaller rotodome
Attachment 2050168

INS Jalashwa (former USS Trenton) .. It was to serve as an example for future Indian LPD operations. But sadly, no such large LPD was designed or ordered from Indian shipbuilders since then!!!

That's an interesting mock up. Especially so because I spy F-32's with their distinctive pelican tails and gaping maws in the photo. For those wondering the F-32 was based on the Boeing entry (X-32) for the JSF competition that we now know as the F-35 programme (Lockheed's X-35 won out). If it weren't for how damn expensive the Osprey is as a platform I think you would've seen it have more widespread acceptance. I saw one up close while doing fieldwork in Morocco of all places and they're a strange thing to behold. Both based on the noise they make and the speed with which they zip by compared to a traditional helicopter.

LPD/LHDs what have you are imo the most versatile capital ship a country can have. Simply for their enormous utility for rescue and relief operations of any kind. It's disappointing for sure there hasn't been any clean sheet or even derivative Indian design yet. Personally I would've liked India to have taken the opportunity to get the orphaned Mistrals when they couldn't go to Russia but somehow Egypt of all places ended up with them. That would've been an excellent deal for India to acquire a highly modern ready made ship in one fell swoop. The French probably would've happily sold them to India, a good deal round for everyone. Plus the Russians would probably be allowed to linger about the ship on joint exercises even. We'd likely have been license building follow on vessels in the same class by now. Could've even purchased Apache's for naval use to add significant punch to the ships beyond their amphibious capability. Ah well, what might've been.

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https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ith-two-navies

Nice write up summarising the Viraat's history from when it was first laid down, then entered stasis following WW2, the changes incorporated as it became Hermes and finally it's Falklands service. And then it's life under an IN pennant.

An interesting point I wasn't aware of is this:

Shipping firm the Shree Ram Group bought Viraat via MSTC Limited, an Indian state-owned corporation, in July 2020 for approximately $5 million

At that price, I wonder if the IN ever considered using Viraat for a SINKEX - would've been a fitting end, serving the fleet till the very last.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

LPD/LHDs what have you are imo the most versatile capital ship a country can have. Simply for their enormous utility for rescue and relief operations of any kind. It's disappointing for sure there hasn't been any clean sheet or even derivative Indian design yet. Personally I would've liked India to have taken the opportunity to get the orphaned Mistrals when they couldn't go to Russia but somehow Egypt of all places ended up with them. That would've been an excellent deal for India to acquire a highly modern ready made ship in one fell swoop. The French probably would've happily sold them to India, a good deal round for everyone.

Rightly said. Infact, I believe the Mistral along with the Spanish Juan Carlos (which is almost an aircraft carrier) + others were the leading contenders. I believe the Russian Mistral order included Ka-50 attack helicopters which were given to the Egyptians as well along with the Ships. Purchasing these two Mistrals along with two additional orders would've severely increased the power projections of the Navy given these are nearly as big as Aircraft Carriers.

The tender has apparently been cancelled now.

These Landing Dock Platforms (LPDs), also known as amphibious transport docks by some navies, are meant to weigh around 30,000 tonnes, and be able to carry an Army battalion, tanks and armoured carriers into a war zone, along with helicopters.

Sources in the defence and security establishment said the Navy will now decide new qualitative requirements for the amphibious warships, because too much time has elapsed since the RFP was put out.

However, a different set of sources say that more than the ‘time gap’, the real issue was the emergence of a single-vendor situation, with an internal capability assessment going against one of the two shipyards in contention.

The retraction took place on 25 September, sources said, adding that the RFP has been withdrawn after nine extensions and one re-submission of bids in seven years.

It is hoped that the new RFP for the warships will allow much wider participation and could also involve public shipyards. The entire process will take time, the sources admitted.

The Juan Carlos which was to be built by L & T and the Mistral which was to be built by Reliance were the front-runners with the former leading the race and rightly so since it's essentially an aircraft carrier in the Spanish Navy with Australia already purchasing it (giving interoperability within the new burgeoning Quad relationship) and Turks using a more modified version. It would effectively allow the Indian Navy to Field an F-35B or used US Marine Harriers in four additional aircraft carriers (ish) helping with power projection against the PLAN. Offcourse, a newly issued tender means that it would take 10 years before even a contract is signed and heaven knows how geopolitics would be like then (maybe we would be cosier with the Americans or maybe more estrangled, politics changes everyday).

Again all this is just a dream. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride

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I think I've become inured to the Indian defence establishment delighting in new ways to prevaricate.

Shame really, 4 LHD's in IN service would likely end up being pressed to service a whole bunch more than the aircraft carriers. I still highly doubt India would get the F-35 (even though Trump is really beginning to push the realms of iron clad precedence what with the rumours that the Israel-UAE detente is a first step towards the latter getting the JSF - that alone happening would stagger me. Because it would surely portend Israel being offered some as yet unbeknownst new platform to ensure they retain a qualitative edge in the region).

The interoperability with the RAN if India had gone for a Juan Carlos derivative is strong for sure. Again, by the time the USMC flogs their Harriers, I truly doubt there'd be much life left in those airframes. I think the LHD's would be plenty handy with a competent rotary wing element. I vaguely remember the fully independently rotating thruster pods of the Mistral design being not to the IN's liking, they wanted a simple prop shaft driving screws at the rear. That ended up being a considerable engineering job as it would've cut into the well deck space of the Mistral. I wonder a decade down the line, if India ends up going for a Mistral derivative, whether it'll have the prop shaft or as irony would likely dictate, decades later we end up at square one and find ourselves using it with the pods it was originally designed with.

[dragracer567]

An interesting video on the prospective wider application of the P8 platform as an anti-ship platform (it already comes with the harpoon missiles I believe) and even a stand-off bomber (not sure if we talked about this earlier in this thread). I've read some articles on this as well regarding the debate in the US navy on whether to expand the potential of the P8 platform to carry the very advanced and stealthy AGM-158C LRASM (Long Range Anti-Ship Missile) for which it is already being tested for with a range of approx. 370 km, air-launched sea mines and even other land-attack stand-off missiles.

This video also talks about the potential for export customers including India for which integrating the Brahmos could be an interesting (but also very complex) prospect, else the IN could just buy the AGM-158C off the shelf like the SCALP missiles were bought along with the Rafales. This drastically expands the role of the P8Is effectively allowing them to hunt surface ships from very long ranges - an important capability since the IN just cannot compete with the shipbuilding capacity of the PLAN leading to more Chinese adventures in the Indian Ocean region.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkgE...USMilitaryNews

[dhanushmenon]

Lot of information being discussed here. Whilst everyone has the right to their opinion, I would request members to abstain from discussing capabilities and limitations of the Defence apparatus. Also, kindly refrain from posting images of warships, aircraft etc which are not available in open source internet.

If commissioning of a ship is published in news, it is a welcome snippet to add. However, a ship sailing out of harbour, be it for trials or stretching legs or to wash its underpants, should not be posted here. I am not sure whether Spy shot images of warships would be treated with the same enthusiasm by the government as we treat spy shot images of upcoming cars. It has the word "spy" in it for a reason; and in this case, it will be serious.