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Old 23rd October 2020, 18:57   #286
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

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Originally Posted by dhanushmenon View Post
Lot of information being discussed here. Whilst everyone has the right to their opinion, I would request members to abstain from discussing capabilities and limitations of the Defence apparatus. Also, kindly refrain from posting images of warships, aircraft etc which are not available in open source internet.

If commissioning of a ship is published in news, it is a welcome snippet to add. However, a ship sailing out of harbour, be it for trials or stretching legs or to wash its underpants, should not be posted here. I am not sure whether Spy shot images of warships would be treated with the same enthusiasm by the government as we treat spy shot images of upcoming cars. It has the word "spy" in it for a reason; and in this case, it will be serious.
Each to its own, but this is a public forum. And as such I don’t see any problem in discussing it. The military capabilities of just about all the world forces are discussed, in detail, by enthusiast all over the world, all over the internet.

I don’t see any difference for India, or for any nation for that matter. Unless there are legal reason it can not be done, everything in the public domain is open for discussion.

It is your tax dollar / rupees at work. If the military needs to keep something a secret, they should take pre-cautions. Not the general public, not in a democracy.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 23rd October 2020 at 19:01.
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Old 23rd October 2020, 20:18   #287
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

I'm with Jeroen on this one I'm afraid. If little old me was able to feast my eyes on the image with all the effort it takes to just scroll through Reddit or Twitter, then you can be sure that it's not really that much of a secret anymore. If it's really that hush hush and I'm not doubting there are things you'd want to keep that way, then I wouldn't have been able to get that image in the first place.

Also as a civilian if I'm not able to know about the pros and cons of a particular piece of kit that the govt has acquired in my name, let alone discuss it, I think you'll end up with with a worrying precedent. You won't exactly be able to question the efficacy of said piece of kit should it turn out to be a dud.

Like Jeroen correctly pointed out, the onus should be on the govt to ensure secrecy. Not on us. There are plenty of photos the world over of advanced warships out of harbour or dry dock, going for their trials - I just think it's being a bit overzealous denying it's out there. That's the thing with the internet, it never forgets, so really frankly speaking I don't think removing my post will undo anything but oh well, if the mods feel that way and I'd be curious to know if anyone from naval brass really kicked up a stink over this, then I'll rein my oar in on this one.
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Old 23rd October 2020, 22:15   #288
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

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I'm with Jeroen on this one I'm afraid.
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Each to its own
Jeroen
Like Jeroen very rightly brought out, "To each, his own...". Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Peace out and have a great weekend. Cheers.
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Old 24th October 2020, 10:27   #289
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

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Originally Posted by dhanushmenon View Post
Lot of information being discussed here. Whilst everyone has the right to their opinion, I would request members to abstain from discussing capabilities and limitations of the Defence apparatus. Also, kindly refrain from posting images of warships, aircraft etc which are not available in open source internet.

If commissioning of a ship is published in news, it is a welcome snippet to add. However, a ship sailing out of harbour, be it for trials or stretching legs or to wash its underpants, should not be posted here.
This view has been posted from time to time by others on this forum. But when by a person as distinguished as you, I'm forced to put my (not distinguished) view on record - disagree strongly. (Would temper my views if in an actual war.)

Not getting into a debate about it, unless you really want to.

Sutripta
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Old 24th October 2020, 11:23   #290
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushmenon View Post
Lot of information being discussed here. Whilst everyone has the right to their opinion,....... I would request members to abstain from discussing capabilities and limitations of the Defence apparatus. Also, kindly refrain from posting images of warships, aircraft etc which are not available in open source internet.

If commissioning of a ship is published in news, it is a welcome snippet to add. However, a ship sailing out of harbour, be it for trials or stretching legs or to wash its underpants, should not be posted here. I am not sure whether Spy shot images of warships would be treated with the same enthusiasm by the government as we treat spy shot images of upcoming cars. It has the word "spy" in it for a reason; and in this case, it will be serious.
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Each to its own, but this is a public forum. And as such I donít see any problem in discussing it.
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Originally Posted by ads11 View Post
I'm with Jeroen on this one I'm afraid. If little old me was able to feast my eyes on the image with all the effort it takes to just scroll through Reddit or Twitter....... then I'll rein my oar in on this one.
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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
This view has been posted from time to time by others on this forum. - disagree strongly. (Would temper my views if in an actual war.)
Being an Indian, I can't resist an argument. If there is are 3 Indians and a Dutchman in the fray then we must have at least 7 opinions. This is a tricky area. No easy answers. One way is - this is in the public domain. Another is that every Ivan or Hong Choo is posting in the public domain so today we have a lot of contaminated information on the web and not all of it is in the interests of the Armed Forces of a nation. On Naval matters I know only what I read and sometimes nuggets of history learnt from my father. On aviation I am compelled to be much more circumspect that on certain discussions my professional knowledge does not creep in. I do so by either rechecking that what I'm writing is on the net at a respectable site or I refrain from getting into the discussion. The most sensitive area is performance of electronic equipment. It is an area I consciously stay away from. Just the thoughts of one man in late middle age.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 24th October 2020 at 11:29.
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Old 24th October 2020, 11:43   #291
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Just the thoughts of one man in late middle age.
Wrong premise for argument.
Your choice (for very compelling reasons. I too would if in your place). vs trying to impose your choice on others.

Sutripta
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Old 24th October 2020, 17:43   #292
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

Whatever is in public domain can't be very sensitive. More of an open secret. There will be undisclosed details for all major weaponry. The devil will be in the details.

For example, can we take the maximum operational depth of various submarines we find in public domain at face value?

Just because I am a tax payer, not every information needs to be be disclosed to me.
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Old 26th October 2020, 01:57   #293
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Over the course of a couple a decades and several continents, professionally, I was required to sign various “national secrecy acts”, have my family, my friends, my employer vetted prior to getting various national security clearances. All part of the job, as they say!

I have yet to meet a professional involved in “security” that would be bothered about the public taking images on anything, or discussing anything on line. In fact, they take that as the default position. If it can be seen / observed it is going to end up on the internet, no matter what! So don’t even bother trying to influence the public, Joe average!

Any (military) leader thinking, or worse, advocating, that the general public should refrain from posting / discussion certain things on line is just grossly incompetent.

This is the reality we live in. It can not be avoided. My personal opinion is as stated before; if the government/military or anybody wants to keep a secret, it is their responsibility to do so, without putting limitations on the general public.

The truth is: real secrets are always disclosed from within those who are in the know. Seeing a navy vessel leaving port is no big thing at all. Knowing where it is going might be. Knowing what its commander has been been told on its mission is the real thing. That is learned from somebody with insight/knowlegde. Not from some punter standing on a pier taking an image of a frigate going to sea.

I have been involved in debating/discussing security arrangements on intercepting phone calls and data calls. Again, it is not about what is shared on Facebook, what apps or even the dark web.

The number of disclosed taps, or the technical ability on what can be tapped, is directly proportionate to the number of people involved in putting the phone/data tap on in the first place. It is about the people in the know, not the general public.

Security leaks are always inside out, the rest is just public domain, gossip, clever guessing and a bit of average intelligence extrapoling some antenna’s or other bits and pieces in the image .

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 26th October 2020 at 01:59.
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Old 30th October 2020, 13:15   #294
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post

...... anybody wants to keep a secret, it is their responsibility to do so,...

.......real secrets are always disclosed from within those who are in the know....


.......the rest is just public domain, gossip, clever guessing and a bit of average intelligence extrapoling some antennaís or other bits and pieces in the image .
I fully agree with the quoted part above.

In this age of easy access to internet and reach of social media, multiple pieces of information are bound to be available in the public domain. One can find divergent conclusions and inferences being drawn out, often from the same piece of information.

Some of the items / articles in the public domain are put out with vested interests, propaganda etc, while few are from genuine sources.
Speculative analyses based on unverified info also find many takers without any effort for confirmatory checks for authenticity. It takes considerable effort to filter out the matter from the chaff info available all around.

All these are absolutely normal and are to be expected.

In the case of military aircraft / warships/ defence equipment, till someone who can confirm the correctness of any NEWS / info in the public domain, it is just NEWS and not authentic info. That is my view.
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