[dragracer567]

The Indian navy and Air Force are conducting a naval exercise with the US Navy in the IOR (I believe off the coast of Thiruvananthapuram) over two days. The participants consist of the USS Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier, Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyer USS Halsey and Ticonderoga class guided missile cruiser USS Shiloh while Indian ships include the INS Kochi destroyer and INS Teg frigate. Participating aircraft types include the F/A-18 Super hornet and the E-2C Hawkeye aircraft from the US navy, the P8i and Mig-29K from the Indian Navy and the Sukhoi Su-30 MKi, Jaguar, Phalcon AWACs and IL-78 refueller from the Indian Air Force. It’s nice to see the Indian Navy and Air Force integrating their ops

Exercises include ‘ advanced air defence exercises, cross deck helicopter operations and anti-submarine exercises’. The exercise also included the mandatory photo-ops (images below) though with the frequency of these exercises, there isn’t as much media hype anymore!

[V.Narayan]

IAC, Vikrant II, to commence sea trials in July.

https://theprint.in/defence/sea-tria...d-2022/684286/

This is a milestone for the IN and for India's ship building industry. It was only in June 1972 that we commissioned the first locally built frigate, INS Nilgiri, under license from the British. And here we are in half a century building nuclear subs and aircraft carriers to home bred designs. Other than its air wing of MiG-29K & Kamovs IAC will be armed with 4 Oto Melara 76mm dual purpose guns, four AK-630 close in weapons systems and 2 x 32 cell VLS Barak 1 SAMs.

To indicate how far we have come here is an anecdote. In early 1980s we took the old INS Vikrant into dockyard hands to construct a ski jump and convert her from a CATOBAR to V/STOL configuration. The Sea Harriers had joined the Naval Air Arm. We could not afford the consultation services of the British firm Vickers Shipbuilding so tight were we on $ reserves. The British were confident that the Indians would not be able to work out the mathematics behind the curvature of the ski jump! They also believed the structurals of the old Majestic class carrier would not lend themselves to a ski -jump. They were right! Our engineers from the IN's Corps of Constructors solved both issues and the ski jump equipped Vikrant re-commissioned.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This is a milestone for the IN and for India's ship building industry.

Indeed

The defence minister who visited the INS Vikrant yesterday has confirmed that the ship will undergo sea trials in July 2021 and will be commissioned in 2022. Truly an exciting and proud moment!

And it seems that the Karwar naval base is projected to be Asia’s largest with aim to make the Indian navy “one of the top three naval powers in the world in the next 10-12 years time” (a tall claim).

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

Moreover, the LRASM will effectively turn the P8 into a bomber as I think the LRASM could be used on land targets as well.

Tyler Rogoway penned an interesting thought experiment pretty much laying out the pros and cons of turning the P-8 platform into a bomb truck plus ISR platform, what he dubs an RB-8 (using US nomenclature).

Source

It's really quite compelling. We all know the P-8 is more than capable as an ISR platform, both the US and India have utilised theirs in conducting overland missions, a far cry from their original maritime patrol purpose. Plans are already underway to build a sort of modular underbody enclosure for AESA radar or other sensor suites to have essentially a cheaper ISR platform.

An interesting suggestion is to keep the sonobuoy tubes and have the P-8 become a control hub for UAVs. Turns out those tubes are just the right size to accommodate an air dropped drone. You could have a P-8 quarterback a whole swarm of the things. This though has less immediate relevance for India to my mind at least. But again, if India developed it's own tube deployed air dropped drones, that's another interesting capability that I don't think is currently available.

The arsenal ship concept though is where things get interesting. With the LRASM capability and the underwing pylons, Indian Neptunes are already a potent and relatively cheap long range maritime strike platform. That 737 NG underpinning is crucial as it means in comparison to most other fixed wing platforms, the civilian spares and supplies market for the 737 NG is so big, sustainment costs are massively lower compared to other long rang strike platforms. Plus being a civilian airliner at heart it's cheap to run and has both considerable range and thus loiter time. Combine those and essentially have an inboard bomb bay, and you could have a B-8, 737 NG based bomber. We know China has it's updated H-6 Xi'ans that are more than handy long range strike platforms. India doesn't seem to have any such capability (not that I think it really has needed it I suppose). But were it to need it, I wonder if the IAF for eg would pursue this avenue. Even with it's long legs the B-8 I don't think has the range to go all the way to the SCS and back (in case of going the long way round to strike back). But still, as an overland bomb truck that could stay aloft for hours on end, it makes for a surprising close air support platform.

I think this could be an avenue to watch. The whole programme is clearly motoring on nicely with more operators coming on board globally and most that I know of being quite happy with their own P-8s (including India). It's certainly an enticing cost effective proposition in terms of adapting a familiar platform.

[dragracer567]

Al Jazeera has come up with a short documentary (they call it an investigation but they seem to have taken all their information easily from the public domain ) on the new Indian Naval base on the Mauritian island of Agaléga that consists of a new 3000 m runway that can easily handle a P-8i or a C-17 while I believe ships can also be berthed there. You can also see houses being built for the Indian Naval Staff expected to be stationed there, so its a fully fledged naval base, though it can't be acknowledged as such for political reasons. It does give an interesting perspective on what India has been doing to push back against the increasing Chinese influence in the IOR.

Offcourse, Al Jazeera has obviously chosen to cover this development in a negative light which is unsurprising considering how they generally cover India.

Link to Al Jazeera article

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKb1...JazeeraEnglish

[travancore]

A snippet from the Illustrated Weekly of India, September, 1955. Fireflies for the Indian Navy.

[dragracer567]

Dassault will fly the Rafale M to India on a showcase trip to the Indian Navy in 2022

After slacking significantly behind Boeing which has been aggressively marketing the F/A-18 Super Hornets to the Indian Navy (it's even features prominently in the Boeing India Website in Indian Navy colours), Dassault has finally taken steps to showcase the Rafale M to the Indian Navy. To that end, Dassault will fly Rafale Ms to India to test/showcase its ability to take-off from a ski-jump which Boeing has already demonstrated at their facility in Maryland, USA. However, Dassault will showcase it at the Indian Navy's own ski-jump facility at INS Hansa in Goa taking one step further than Boeing (and perhaps Dassault and France don't actually have a ski-jump facility for testing).

Moreover, it seems that the Indian defense establishment has confirmed that the elevator of the INS Vikrant II can accommodate all aircraft including the F/A-18 Super Hornets and the Dassault Rafale which is crucial since the Rafale doesn't have folding wings and hence will have a larger footprint.

The Indian Navy (and the Air Force for that matter) are in an enviable position as they are spoiled for choice, the ball is in their court now. Given that the timelines for the TEBDF seem overly optimistic and HAL hasn't even produced a prototype yet (as is the case for the Tejas Mark 1A & Mark 2 for the IAF), foreign fighters are the only avenue left to plug the gap with the TEBDF possibly replacing the Mig-29ks into the 2030s.

Source

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Dassault will fly the Rafale M to India on a showcase trip to the Indian Navy in 2022

Great news. You beat me to it :-) All in favour of competition. Clearly the Rafale M if selected, will help with synergies of logistics, maintenance & training. We are already a veritable United Nations of military aircraft with Russian, French, Anglo-French, Indigenous, American all tossed into our salad mix. Standardization is healthy.

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

Moreover, it seems that the Indian defense establishment has confirmed that the elevator of the INS Vikrant II can accommodate all aircraft including the F/A-18 Super Hornets and the Dassault Rafale which is crucial since the Rafale doesn't have folding wings and hence will have a larger footprint.

Did they really? I know we only have images to go on and that they can be deceptive, but those elevators look incredibly tight. My impression is that it would leave no wiggle room even if they did manage to fit either of the jets aboard. All that being said, the Rafale M synergies if selected both for the TEDBF programmes and for a follow on IAF order would be immense (however, when has the easy path ever been the one India selected).

PLAN carrier capable FC-31 prototype takes flight
Another piece of news that seems to have gone unnoticed is the fact that the carrier capable FC-31 has made its first flight. This is particularly significant given how rapidly their true CATOBAR 3rd carrier is coming along. Even with nominally LO characteristics, the FC-31 would be a Huge leap forward for PLAN naval aviation compared to their giant and geriatric J-15s (not to mention you could pack a whole lot more FC-31s in the same hangar compared to the J-15s). While the FC-31 bears more than a passing resemblance to the F-35, early indications seem to suggest that features like the nearly identical canopy could instead be used for storing extra fuel where the American has to accommodate a bulky lift fan. At the breakneck speed Chinese industry is operating to facilitate the PLANs build up as a peer competitor to the USN in their own backyard at least, it's hard to say that by the end of the decade you couldn't have a PLAN task group with a true flat top slinging FC-31s off it's deck in the IOR.

If anything this gives even more onus not just on the USN, but the JMSDF operationalising their Izumo class as F-35B carriers and the ROKN fielding their own carrier fleet too.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Dassault will fly the Rafale M to India on a showcase trip to the Indian Navy in 2022

As discussed earlier in this thread, the Rafale M will start STOBAR trials at INS Hansa in Goa from the 6th of January onwards where it will undergo intensive trials for upto 12 days. Moreover, the F/A-18 Super hornets will also undergo similar testing at INS Hansa on March even though Boeing has already demonstrated its STOBAR capability at a demonstration in Maryland to the Indian navy. I’m guessing that the testing in Goa will be much more intensive.

The news article also suggests that india might lease four or five Rafale Ms (!?) from France as early as next year when the INS Vikrant is made operational (so have they decided on the Rafale already?). I’m not sure how credible this is as we still don’t know if the Rafale can operate from the INS Vikrant without modifications. Also, we had heard of India leasing A330 MRTTs from France earlier which hasn’t happened yet.

Does the Indian navy’s (and the air force’s for that matter) procurement plan seem a bit confusing? Or are the media hyping non-existent plans?

Link

[skanchan95]

Something which Boeing seems to have stressed in their presentation to the Indian Navy is that the Super Hornet has a carrier capable, fully multi role, twin seat variant(F) while the Rafale M does not have a carrier capable twin seat variant. But, that being said, the US Navy itself does not use the F variant in a dedicated carrier ops trainer role. The F/A-18F is fully multiple role and the pilot in the back seat works as the WSO. The US Navy does not have a mix of single seat E and twin seat F variants in a single squadron(unlike the IN's two MiG-29K sqdns that have both K & KUB based on the INS Vikramaditya) . Each Super Hornet squadron is a dedicated E, F or G squadron. For e.g VFA-27 is an F/A-18E squadron, VFA-103 is an F/A-18F squadron, VAQ-134 is an EA-18G squadron - all carrier based


As the Indian Navy has been operating twin seat trainers off carriers (the last two carrier based fighter acquisitions -Sea Harrier/MiG-29K), it will be be interesting to see what happens next ad how they approach this. If the Navy goes the Rafale or SH way instead of the MiG-29K for the INS Vikrant.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Dassault will fly the Rafale M to India on a showcase trip to the Indian Navy in 2022

Dassault has finally taken steps to showcase the Rafale M to the Indian Navy. However, Dassault will showcase it at the Indian Navy's own ski-jump facility at INS Hansa in Goa taking one step further than Boeing (and perhaps Dassault and France don't actually have a ski-jump facility for testing).

I made this French Navy Rafale M in Indian Air Force colours about 1.5 years ago, maybe Dassault can use it in their PR efforts

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On the topic of the Rafale undergoing ramp testing at INS Hansa, I found some interesting notes in this article, this paragraph in particular:

With Russian consultancy provided for the IAC-1 design, the fact that the warship is optimized for operating the MiG-29K is perhaps not entirely surprising, although it suggests that a degree of modification will be required to handle the larger Rafale or Super Hornet. With the Super Hornet’s wings folded, it spans 30 feet 6 inches, leaving very little room on the elevator, which is 32 feet 10 inches wide. The Rafale, which doesn’t have a wing-fold mechanism, is wider still, at 35 feet 9 inches.

This is about the first time I've found hard numbers assigned to the size of the Vikrant elevators, which have always struck me as strangely petite. Unusually for Indian ship building which tends to prefer to build some leeway size wise, the elevators leave next to no room for growth. In fact that aligns with the Russian shipbuilding practice of tight packaging. If you were to don your tinfoil hat you could almost say that they might've deliberately steered the design to have elevators only capable of comfortably accommodating the MiG-29s.

Going back to those dimensions, no chance a Rafale fits on the Vikrant unless they introduce folding wings to them (IIRC it's not currently a feature on this jet). The F-18 would just about barely make it.

Meanwhile came across this tweet of Vikrant seemingly doing donuts while on trials.


Jokes aside it's clearly a test to see how much it rolls under hard turns.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

This is about the first time I've found hard numbers assigned to the size of the Vikrant elevators, which have always struck me as strangely petite. Unusually for Indian ship building which tends to prefer to build some leeway size wise, the elevators leave next to no room for growth. In fact that aligns with the Russian shipbuilding practice of tight packaging. If you were to don your tinfoil hat you could almost say that they might've deliberately steered the design to have elevators only capable of comfortably accommodating the MiG-29s.

If this indeed was a gaffe, I am unsure if we should laugh or cry at the predicament we have found ourselves in. I wonder what is the rationale of running what I assume would be expensive trials on aircraft that won't fit on the carrier (well, elevators of the carrier). Also, I wonder why Dassault and Boeing would continue to market their planes, do they know something we don't? I don't think Dassault would want to go through the trouble of designing foldable wings given the small volumes involved.

The link you posted also indicates the possibility of the aircraft carrier "undergoing the necessary adaptations" while the crew practice on-shore using 4-5 leased Rafales. Now, my knowledge about ship-building is minuscule to non-existent but "adapting" a carrier to build bigger elevators seems like an unnecessarily expensive and time-consuming endeavor if possible at all. I hope the Navy and the South Block overlords know something that the common folk like us don't and have a reasonable explanation for all this.

Meanwhile came across this tweet of Vikrant seemingly doing donuts while on trials.
Attachment 2261709

Jokes aside it's clearly a test to see how much it rolls under hard turns.

Rolls less than my Dad's old Toyota Camry!

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Indeed, I don't quite follow the turn of events. It's pretty clear that the French jet for sure won't fit however which way we cut it - so why the trials?? And are they seriously going to make a folding wing spec of the Rafale M for such limited volumes, knowing full well that it would send Indian procurement babus running for the hills once the price increase gets factored in? Seems rather bizarre. I get that there's a fat contract waiting at the other end but it all screams 'square peg, round hole' in this particular regard..

And modifying the carrier at this stage seems baffling still! My only guess and even then it's really clutching at straws is someone is hoping for a jugaad solution of perhaps parking the jet on the elevator on the diagonal (again I don't even know if that would realistically be possible, I can't recall ever seeing any carrier navy doing as such).