[Aiel]

Originally Posted by Swerve

Slightly off topic. But did anyone hear/see fighters take off from Mumbai domestic airport noon time. Seen them for past few days take off from the maintenance runway. Managed to take a picture but it's poor quality. Is there a better sound and sight than a fighter jet take off ?

Those were MIG 29s. They seem to be based out of Mumbai for the past week and do daily sorties. A better picture of one of them: http://www.jetphotos.net/photo/8239285
This is not my picture. Credits to the photographer.

[SmartCat]

An article on how Boeing P8-I Poseidon aircrafts are being used by Indian Navy
http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/pakis...ome-topstories

The Chinese 'Shang' class submarine, which docked in Karachi, entered the Indian Ocean through the Malacca straits off Singapore between April 19 and 20. Picked up almost immediately by the Indian Navy's US-made Boeing P8-I maritime surveillance aircraft, the submarine - accompanied by a large 10,000 ton fleet support and replenishment tanker - was constantly tracked on its way to Karachi.

The P8-Is dropped sonobuoys across the projected route of the submarine. Sonobuoys - small listening devices that transmit the sound of submarines to reconnaissance aircraft operating overhead - are key to detecting submarines.

Interspersed with the 'passive' sonobuoys deployed by the P8-Is, were 'active' sonobuoys which ping the ocean with sound waves reflecting off the submarine surface.

Using a combination of both sensors, the Navy's P8-Is were able to force the Chinese submarine into making evasive maneuvers.

The exact location of the submarine was also passed on to India's own submarines, which were also monitoring the movement of the 'Shang'.

[V.Narayan]

Navy rejects Naval Tejas LCA - cannot take off at full weight from a carrier

http://thediplomat.com/2017/01/the-i...based-fighter/

The Indian Navy has launched a formal requirement for 57 multirole carrier-borne fighters and issued an RFI for this. This RFI follows the Navy's rejection on the Naval version of Tejas LCA. The Navy has stated that the Tejas has failed to demonstrate the ability to take off from a 200 metre carrier deck with a full load of weapons. In simple words the power to weight ratio is not good enough or in other words the LCA weighs too much when empty.

In its RFI, the Navy calls for a fighter that can undertake roles ranging from air defence and surface strike to reconnaissance and electronic warfare and which is capable of performing “buddy to buddy” aerial refuelling. The request also expresses an interest in licence production of the aircraft with related transfer of technology. Information is also being sought on whether the aircraft has a swing-role capability for the simultaneous carriage of strike weapons and air-to-air missiles. Some under-wing pylons should be capable of carrying stores weighing up to 1,500kg (3,300lb), with the ability to release weapons from an altitude of 40,000ft. The selected type will operate from indigenously developed aircraft carriers that are currently under construction. While the first of these – to be named the INS Vikrant – features a ski-jump layout with short take-off and arrested recovery, the configuration of a second vessel has yet to be frozen.

Contenders for the requirement are Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault’s Rafale M and the MiG-29K. The last of these types is already in Indian Naval service. Sweden's Saab may propose a navalized version of the Gripen.

This is a sad day for Indian aviation that even 16 years after the Tejas first flew it has failed to find acceptance from either the Navy or the Air Force. Always a sucker for the under dog I have a soft spot for the LCA. The official parameters of the LCA don’t exactly indicate a weak power to weight ratio. But clearly we will not know all the details. But both Arms rejecting the aircraft (the IAF defacto and the IN de jure) is a sign that all is not well.

Countries like China have also faced these problems of having developed an aircraft that was so-so and did not quite cut it. But they took the more pragmatic route of building 2 or 3 squadrons only and then letting the deficient design be worked upon through a rich designer-manufacturer-user-maintainer interface. This led them to garner data and ideas of what to do right the next time and then went on to build an incremental follow up but sometimes with so many increments that it became a wholly newer and much better aircraft. With the LCA the IAF first started with an all over stretched wunderbar design specification (when we hadn't even designed a car in-country), to this the DRDO said we will develop everything from scratch in-country instead of going for a sensible buy & build plan and now 33 years and several thousand crores rupees later we are at square one of snakes and ladders.

Given the headaches and let downs the IAF and Navy have faced from DRDO & HAL on myriad issues possibly this time they said either you get it right or get out. One good sign is that the current Raksha Mantri is clearly putting the needs of the Forces first and not eternally subordinating them to the claims & ambitions of DRDO (if there are BHPians from DRDO - I mean no disrespect in general and admire DRDO & ISRO for success on the missile front)


Naval Tejas


Ski-jump trials


The new INS Vikrant from the decks of which the LCA was to fly. She is expected to commission in 2020.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Navy rejects Naval Tejas LCA - cannot take off at full weight from a carrier

It is sad, disappointing and makes me somewhat angry that inspite of all these years having goneby, the Tejas is still underdeveloped and struggling to be accepted by the Air Force and the Navy. It is a pretty looking aircraft an I do hope that they get inducted in large numbers by the Air Force atleast.

The Naval Tejas got an all grey paint scheme for Aero India 2017 and sadly it might never see service with the Navy in its current form.

[PraNeel]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

It is sad, disappointing and makes me somewhat angry that inspite of all these years having goneby, the Tejas is still underdeveloped and struggling to be accepted by the Air Force and the Navy.

Fret not, HAL and ADA were already aware and are developing a new Mark 1 version which will be a little bit longer, will be lighter and will have more fuel carrying capacity. This will cater to navy's requirements.
Please have a look at this video for more details. Link
The main challenge in developing the naval version is arrestor hook stop and take off.

[SmartCat]

I'm OK with Navy not opting for Tejas for it's aircraft carriers. What is likely to have happened is that previous Navy chief committed to it but this particular Navy chief is not interested in a light aircraft with a small combat range & weapons load for its aircraft carrier - from a strategic point of view.

The Mig 29K can carry 5.5 tonnes of weapons. I would be really surprised if some other aircraft (other than Mig 29k) is picked up though.

HAL will be setting up a second assembly line soon and they will soon be manufacturing 16 Tejas per year.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nati...s-1570575.html

So all's well that ends well.

[PraNeel]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This is a sad day for Indian aviation that even 16 years after the Tejas first flew it has failed to find acceptance from either the Navy or the Air Force. But both Arms rejecting the aircraft (the IAF defacto and the IN de jure) is a sign that all is not well.

There are three big issues here:

1. HAL production rate of Tejas. The Government is yet to approve the third assembly line for Tejas. HAL has started a second assembly line which can produce 3 jets per year when fully operational. I fail to understand why this approval is still pending when IAF is in dire need of jets. The global norm is 16 jets a year and this is still some time away. Link
2. IAF wants all the modern capabilities like air to air refueling, electronic warfare suite and AESA radar in Tejas. These are a part of Tejas Mark 1a version, for which the timeline is set at 2017. Sadly, all these enhancements take time. Aircraft development can't be pushed as it requires a lot of research and time.
3. There is a large void left behind by previous government where nothing was done for 10 years. The current government is trying to fill it by buying the products available readily, with a make in India clause. The defense minister is said to be doing fortnightly reviews for the Tejas Mark 1a project to keep it on track.
   Please have a look at the below video where Mr. Balaji says that Tejas is superior to any available single engine jet today, however due to production constraints we might have to look at other planes.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewo7HLjXVw8

[PraNeel]

Here are the latest updates for HAL. They will be expanding in next 5 years with a budget of 17,500 crores, mostly through bank loans. Production will be ramped up for all the products including Tejas, Helicopters and Su-30 MKI.

Ramping up production of fighter aircraft, helicopters and UAVs, aviation major Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is gearing up for an overall investment of Rs 17,500 crore in the next five years.
Responding to media queries at the Aero India 2017 here, HAL chairman and managing director T Suvarna Raju said the company may go in for bank loans to fund the projects.
Here’s his update on projects undertaken by HAL, both indigenously and in collaboration with foreign partners.
Sukhoi-30MKI
HAL supplied 183 Sukhoi-MKI multi-role fighter aircraft to the IAF till January 2017. The remaining aircraft, out of an order for 222 planes, would be delivered by 2019-20.
As the lead agency for the aircraft’s upgrade, HAL will ink contracts with the Sukhoi Design Bureau for a two-phase upgrade. The first phase will start in 90 days, Raju said.
LCA Tejas
Three aircraft were delivered to IAF, which operationalised its first squadron, “Flying Daggers”. The delivery of all the 40 LCA Mk-1 aircraft will be completed by 2019-20.
LCA Mk1A
The project will go on an overdrive to cater to IAF’s procurement of 83 LCA Mk1A aircraft with enhanced capabilities of AESA Radar, BVR missile, self-protection jammer and air-to-air refuelling.
The production will be increased from the current eight per year to 16 a year with increased stress on outsourcing, said Raju. “The trials for LCA Mk1A will be completed by 2018.”
ALH Dhruvs
On the Advanced Light Helicopter (Dhruv), Raju said HAL has built 231 copters till January 2017. “We have concluded negotiations for 73 more ALHs to the services. The contract will be signed shortly.”
Dornier aircraft
The defence PSU has also produced 135 Dornier-228 aircraft. The Navy has placed orders for 12 more. The task will be completed by 2019-20.
Light Utility Helicopter
The Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), which had its maiden flight in September 2016 and flew again at the airshow inaugural, is expected to complete the certification process by 2018. Deliveries could begin by 2019-20.
Light Combat Helicopter
The Defence Acquisition Council, he said, has cleared procurement of 15 Light Combat Helicopters (LCH). Ten of these are for IAF and five for the Army. HAL is also producing 20 Cheetal helicopters for the Army and 10 more are in the pipeline for IAF.
Besides, HAL will undertake upgrades of 61 Jaguars and 51 Mirage fighter aircraft.
Basic trainer
On the Hindustan Turboprop Trainer (HTT), Raju said the company expected orders for 106 aircraft, to be used for basic training, aerobatics, instrument flying and close-formation flights.
Mini UAVs
Progressing on the Mini Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) front, HAL has developed an 80-kg product with a 15-km day/night range capability. “It is now production-ready for the police, paramilitary services and armed forces,” informed Raju.
HAL is investing Rs 210 crore on Rustom-2 with Aeronautical Defence Establishment as partner. It has already partnered with the Indian Institute of Technology, Kharagpur to develop a rotary UAV. “Our plan is to get into the 50, 200 and 500 kg class UAVs.”
Highest turnover
HAL has notched up its highest ever turnover of Rs 16,736 crore for 2015-16, a 7.14% growth over the previous year. “Profit before tax was Rs 3,288 crore. The current year’s target is Rs 17,100 crore. Our sales till January stood at Rs 10,086 crore,” the CMD informed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTsQ08I_M3A

[V.Narayan]

Indian Navy looks to acquire the Japanese US-2 Flyingboat

The Indian Navy is evaluating purchase of the Shinmaywa US-2 amphibian seaplane for search & rescue and for naval maritime patrols. This will be the first ever defense oriented deal between Japan and India. The Shinmaywa US-2 is the only large seaplane in production and in earlier versions (US-1) has been in production & service since the mid-1970s. This long range patrol aircraft will enable India fulfill its responsibilities for search and rescue in the Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal and North Indian Ocean.


The US-2 while resting on water. It has a patrol range of 4500 kms and a normal cruise speed of 480 kmph. It is powered by 4 Rolls Royce AE2100 turbhoshafts each putting out just over 4500 shp and driving a 6 blade composite propeller. That’s a total output of over 18,000 shp. A turboshaft is a gas turbine that extracts out the energy of the hot fast exhaust gases (like a multi-stage turbo charger) and uses that to drive a slower larger propeller in the front. Almost all the energy gets fed into the prop in the front and a residue is exhausted as a hot flowing mass of gases that continue to generate some residual thrust.

Interestingly take off distance from water is only 280 metres versus 490 metres from a land runway. The US-2 carries a 5th turbine engine inside the rear fuselage that generates hot high pressure gas that is blown out of tiny holes on the wing surface. These generate lift that gives it this remarkable short take off capability. This is known as boundary layer control. The lower fuselage is shaped like a boat and acts as a source of buoyancy and stability when making its water-borne take off run.



Video showing the US-2 landing and taking off from water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJuOnxtHUjY

As an amphibian the US-2 carries a full landing gear system for landing and take-off from a normal runway. Note the hydrodynamic speed boat hull shape of the lower half of the fuselage. In a search and rescue mission the US-2 can rescue over 20 people at a time and fly them to safety.

Length: 109'
Wingspan: 108'
Height: 32'
Empty weight: 25 tonnes
Maximum Take off (water): 43 tonnes
Range ~4700 kms
To speed: 580 kmph


The last time ever the Indian Navy operated an amphibian was in the early 1960s - Shorts Sealand. A small utility machine it was used for search & rescue, coastal patrol, target towing and transport.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Indian Navy looks to acquire the Japanese US-2 Flyingboat

- Is this confirmed news?
- Any idea why US-2 is so expensive? $110 million per aircraft!

Seems like an awful lot of money for an utility aircraft.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by smartcat

- Is this confirmed news?
- Any idea why US-2 is so expensive? $110 million per aircraft!

Seems like an awful lot of money for an utility aircraft.

It is expensive because of the small production runs. The back and forth between the two Governments is over this price. I am quite sure the purchase will happen. My professional knowledge of this machine tells me it is a most thoroughly well designed aircraft with outstanding attention to ergonomics and maintenance. Lets see how this unfolds.

PS: I have no commercial interest here!

[n.devdath]

The internet tells me that this is actually a pretty old, modernised, niche aircraft used only by Japan in very small numbers. It might make sense to them because of the nature of their jagged coastline and the operations therein.

While the deal might go through because of political and goodwill reasons, if no other country uses it across the world, I do not believe it to be a competent product.

Also, such niche machines will most likely create issues in spares, technical training/knowledge transfer and most importantly upgrades.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

While the deal might go through because of political and goodwill reasons, if no other country uses it across the world, I do not believe it to be a competent product.

I agree with that as well.

Apart from scoring political brownie points and strengthening Indo-Japanese relationship based on Modi & Abe's personal friendship, I don't think the US-2 will add anything substantial to the Navy's capabilities.

With four different Maritime Recon/Patrol platforms (Do-228, IL-38, Tu-142 & P-8I) already in service, adding a different type only adds to the logistical and maintenance nightmare.

In the SAR role, the helicopters can do a much better job.

If an amphibian for the Navy was so important, I wonder why the Beriev Be-200 was not considered.

[akshay380]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

The internet tells me that this is actually a pretty old, modernised, niche aircraft used only by Japan in very small numbers. It might make sense to them because of the nature of their jagged coastline and the operations therein.

While the deal might go through because of political and goodwill reasons, if no other country uses it across the world, I do not believe it to be a competent product.

Also, such niche machines will most likely create issues in spares, technical training/knowledge transfer and most importantly upgrades.

Hope you know that from 1967 to 2014 Japan had self imposed Miliary hardware ban. Only now they have started marketing the plane.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

The internet tells me that this is actually a pretty old, modernised, niche aircraft used only by Japan in very small numbers. ...... if no other country uses it across the world, I do not believe it to be a competent product.

My experience on technical matters is that the internet is at best superficial and at worst biased by those who choose to express their views. When selecting an aircraft for 30 years of service I would not base any judgement on the internet. No other country uses the US-2 because this will be the first ever sale of any military hardware by Japan.

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Apart from scoring political brownie points and strengthening Indo-Japanese relationship based on Modi & Abe's personal friendship, I don't think the US-2 will add anything substantial to the Navy's capabilities.

In the SAR role, the helicopters can do a much better job.

If an amphibian for the Navy was so important, I wonder why the Beriev Be-200 was not considered.

We will let the Navy's technical folks decide on its usefulness and need. We do not know what electronics it will be loaded with. So lets hold our judgment till more is known. It is very likely this machine will be configured for a multi-purpose role much beyond search and rescue.

India's search and rescue zone designated by international maritime law reaches out to 1500 to 2000 kms into the Indian Ocean south west of India (see post #60) To fulfill this SAR need you require a long range patrol aircraft. Even a large helicopter at best will reach out to 200 kms after allowing time for search on station.

The Be-200 could have been an option if the USSR still existed. But with the state of Russian finances and industry only a handful were produced and production seized up 8 to 10 years ago. There are claims of production being revived in 2017 but I would not count on that. After having dealt with the Russia of today on aviation support I would hesitate to buy anything from them.