[shortbread]

Originally Posted by ads11

I only used the word compromise because as far as the Americans are concerned, the best scenario for them would be the Super Hornet winning both the IAF and IN orders. Similarly for the French the best case would be if the Rafale won both the IAF and IN orders.

Anyway, all we can do is watch at this point and hope some semblance of logic prevails.

Ah, I get you now. The IAF and Boeing have clarified the F18 isn't competing for the air force order, they're offering the F15 instead. Which isn't of great help in my opinion, since the IAF already have missile trucks in the Su30s.

[sierrabravo98]

Am I the only one here who is dismayed at the massive CAPEX we are going to allocate towards the Rafale/F18SH/any other import would be better utilized on the Tejas Mk2/TEDBF/AMCA programs? ADA has been sounding out alarm bells about the paucity of funds with respect to production of Tejas Mk-2 prototypes. As things stand, they will be able to build 1 (2 at the most) prototype of the Mk-2. This will have a cascading impact down the entire development process of the Mk-2 leading to delays in induction of indigenous platforms and cost escalation. The import hungry brass at the IAF (and Army) need the flimsiest of excuse to deride and reject indigenous platforms and the brain-dead politicians (and bureaucracy) are giving them just that.

Frankly speaking, the present IAF leadership has proven to be a utter disappointment insofar as promoting indigenous platforms is concerned. I miss ACM Bhadauria's public enthusiasm for the Tejas and other indigenous platforms (pretty ironic considering his initials are emblazoned on every Rafale in IAF service). I say, take a call and shove indigenous platforms (in whatever state of readiness/capabilities they may be) down the throats of the services. They are not going to win any war against the Chinese fielding imported equipment anyway.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

Am I the only one here who is dismayed at the massive CAPEX we are going to allocate towards the Rafale/F18SH/any other import would be better utilized on the Tejas Mk2/TEDBF/AMCA programs? ADA has been sounding out alarm bells about the paucity of funds with respect to production of Tejas Mk-2 prototypes. As things stand, they will be able to build 1 (2 at the most) prototype of the Mk-2. This will have a cascading impact down the entire development process of the Mk-2 leading to delays in induction of indigenous platforms and cost escalation. The import hungry brass at the IAF (and Army) need the flimsiest of excuse to deride and reject indigenous platforms and the brain-dead politicians (and bureaucracy) are giving them just that.

Frankly speaking, the present IAF leadership has proven to be a utter disappointment insofar as promoting indigenous platforms is concerned. I miss ACM Bhadauria's public enthusiasm for the Tejas and other indigenous platforms (pretty ironic considering his initials are emblazoned on every Rafale in IAF service). I say, take a call and shove indigenous platforms (in whatever state of readiness/capabilities they may be) down the throats of the services. They are not going to win any war against the Chinese fielding imported equipment anyway.

I used to think the same, but the IAF have clarified that this order only helps plug some of the gap India currently haves when it comes to squadron strengths. ie. these orders do not replace aircrafts, but fill in existing vacuum.

Soon after this we will need to start replacing nearly 250 aged aircraft currently operated by IAF, this is where the Tejas (90 odd ordered), the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA will come in. First the Mig 21s then followed by the Jaguars.

By the time the above churn is completed, it will be the turn of the Mirages, Mig 29s etc So HAL and it's suppliers do have their hands full.

In terms of paucity of funds, this will always be there. The Indian government's allocation of defence funds is akin to an average Indian Dad handing out pocket money, it's never what ones asked for.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

Am I the only one here who is dismayed at the massive CAPEX we are going to allocate towards the Rafale/F18SH/any other import would be better utilized on the Tejas Mk2/TEDBF/AMCA programs? ADA has been sounding out alarm bells about the paucity of funds with respect to production of Tejas Mk-2 prototypes. As things stand, they will be able to build 1 (2 at the most) prototype of the Mk-2. This will have a cascading impact down the entire development process of the Mk-2 leading to delays in induction of indigenous platforms and cost escalation. The import hungry brass at the IAF (and Army) need the flimsiest of excuse to deride and reject indigenous platforms and the brain-dead politicians (and bureaucracy) are giving them just that.

Frankly speaking, the present IAF leadership has proven to be a utter disappointment insofar as promoting indigenous platforms is concerned. I miss ACM Bhadauria's public enthusiasm for the Tejas and other indigenous platforms (pretty ironic considering his initials are emblazoned on every Rafale in IAF service). I say, take a call and shove indigenous platforms (in whatever state of readiness/capabilities they may be) down the throats of the services. They are not going to win any war against the Chinese fielding imported equipment anyway.

I wouldn't be as harsh. Please consider the following points:

1) In the last decade and a half, anywhere between 200-250 aircraft (probably more) have been decommissioned with most of these aircraft not being replaced with newer aircraft. These include Mig-21s, Mig-23s and Mig-27s. Mind you, there are 150-odd more Mig-21s in our fleet which just can't keep flying any longer.

2) Now coming to the Tejas Mk-2 and AMCA, even assuming ADA had more funds, they don't even have the first prototype ready yet. Now looking at the product cycles of Western & Chinese aircraft, it can take 5-10 years for the first aircraft to be inducted after the first prototype. Perhaps the Tejas Mk-2 might come sooner since it's a variant of an existing aircraft but AMCA is 2 decades away IMHO. Forget these aircraft, even the Tejas MK1A prototype is not ready yet.

3) Now consider the future, going into the 2030s, our SEPECAT Jaguars, Mirage 2000s and Mig-29s (around 200 of them in total) would have to be retired as well just around the time that we would have the Tejas MK-2 (assuming it is ready by then).

So, if we depend on the Tejas Mk-2 (and AMCA a decade later) alone for modernisation, they would single-handedly have to replace 200-250 aircraft already decommissioned without replacement + 150 Mig-21s in service that will be decommissioned soon + 200 other 4th gen fighters that will get replaced in the 2030s. That too, we can only start inducting in the 2030s.

This is why, it makes sense to induct the 114 MRFA aircraft as they would plug the gap as shortbread had stated. This doesn't mean that we have to abandon the Tejas Mk-2 or AMCA projects as the MRFA fighters barely make up for the depleted numbers and we WILL NEED the Tejas Mk-2 to replace the Mirage-2000s, Jaguars and Mig-29s along with AMCA to replace the Su-30s into the 2040s. I honestly feel that the IAF, bureaucracy and the politicians are making a prudent choice to plug a huge gap in our defense capability. Atmanirbhar Nirbhar is important but so is our defense in the short to medium term as the China-Pakistan duo might not wait till 2040 to attack us, so we have to be pragmatic.

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by shortbread

I used to think the same, but the IAF have clarified that this order only helps plug some of the gap India currently haves when it comes to squadron strengths. ie. these orders do not replace aircrafts, but fill in existing vacuum.

Soon after this we will need to start replacing nearly 250 aged aircraft currently operated by IAF, this is where the Tejas (90 odd ordered), the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA will come in. First the Mig 21s then followed by the Jaguars.

By the time the above churn is completed, it will be the turn of the Mirages, Mig 29s etc So HAL and it's suppliers do have their hands full.

In terms of paucity of funds, this will always be there. The Indian government's allocation of defence funds is akin to an average Indian Dad handing out pocket money, it's never what ones asked for.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

I wouldn't be as harsh. Please consider the following points:

1) In the last decade and a half, anywhere between 200-250 aircraft (probably more) have been decommissioned with most of these aircraft not being replaced with newer aircraft. These include Mig-21s, Mig-23s and Mig-27s. Mind you, there are 150-odd more Mig-21s in our fleet which just can't keep flying any longer.

2) Now coming to the Tejas Mk-2 and AMCA, even assuming ADA had more funds, they don't even have the first prototype ready yet. Now looking at the product cycles of Western & Chinese aircraft, it can take 5-10 years for the first aircraft to be inducted after the first prototype. Perhaps the Tejas Mk-2 might come sooner since it's a variant of an existing aircraft but AMCA is 2 decades away IMHO. Forget these aircraft, even the Tejas MK1A prototype is not ready yet.

3) Now consider the future, going into the 2030s, our SEPECAT Jaguars, Mirage 2000s and Mig-29s (around 200 of them in total) would have to be retired as well just around the time that we would have the Tejas MK-2 (assuming it is ready by then).

So, if we depend on the Tejas Mk-2 (and AMCA a decade later) alone for modernisation, they would single-handedly have to replace 200-250 aircraft already decommissioned without replacement + 150 Mig-21s in service that will be decommissioned soon + 200 other 4th gen fighters that will get replaced in the 2030s. That too, we can only start inducting in the 2030s.

This is why, it makes sense to induct the 114 MRFA aircraft as they would plug the gap as shortbread had stated. This doesn't mean that we have to abandon the Tejas Mk-2 or AMCA projects as the MRFA fighters barely make up for the depleted numbers and we WILL NEED the Tejas Mk-2 to replace the Mirage-2000s, Jaguars and Mig-29s along with AMCA to replace the Su-30s into the 2040s. I honestly feel that the IAF, bureaucracy and the politicians are making a prudent choice to plug a huge gap in our defense capability. Atmanirbhar Nirbhar is important but so is our defense in the short to medium term as the China-Pakistan duo might not wait till 2040 to attack us, so we have to be pragmatic.

Quoting both of you as the points (and the hence the replies) are similar.

1.) Import cause "Replacement of phased out/soon to be decommissioned aircraft".

=> A Tejas Mk-1 FOC (forget the Mk-1A) is leaps ahead in terms of capabilities when compared to any junk Mig which the IAF is phasing out. Why was the total order size limited to 123 aircrafts (40 Mk-1+ 83Mk-1A)? The IAF could easily have ordered 300-400 Tejas Mk-1/A. Not only would this have pushed down costs drastically (economies of scale anyone?) but would also have enabled HAL to ramp up production to 30-40 aircrafts an year (as compared to the 8 odd units per year soon to ramped up to 12 which is the maximum possible for the current order size. And it is not as if the imported aircrafts will start getting delivered within the year? Just look at how long it took Dassault to deliver the Rafales'. Good luck getting more now in time when Dassault already has a full order book.

2.) "Tejas Mk-2 will takes time and hence we need imports".

=> Simple answer is NO. The Mk-2 prototype is already in production. If this inept government had allocated more funds towards the program and IAF stopped behaving like a customer and acting more like a developer (which they started to do after the son of the soil from Goa whipped their behinds and hence the Mk-1A), the Mk-2 prototype would have been doing taxi-trials right now. Keep in the mind that the F414 engines which are supposed to power the Mk-2 have been delivered years back to ADA.

Frankly speaking, this argument encapsulates everything wrong with Indian strategic thinking at the highest levels. Did the Chinese start building 5th generation J-20s/J-31s all of a sudden one fine morning? NO!! They started with reverse engineering third rate copies of very basic Soviet platforms. Look where they are now. They have so many squadrons of 5th generation platforms in active service while we are still debating on the type of last generation planes we should import while neglecting indigenous platforms which are perfectly capable of countering any threat almost as effectively as any of these imports ever will.

And I am not even going to talk about how pouring such vast amount of money in indigenous platforms will have a multiplier effect on the economy has a whole.

3.) "Atmanirbhar Nirbhar is important but so is our defense in the short to medium term as the China-Pakistan duo might not wait till 2040 to attack us, so we have to be pragmatic."

=> Conduct a few megaton bomb tests coupled with SLBM/ICBM tests demonstrating complete MIRV integration. The Chinese will remain quiet for the next decade. Pakistan is a rump state which we can take care of even now. But of course, we have to play the role of the global "Vishvaguru" and be Mr. Goodie Two Shoes for our white masters else we will be sanctioned (oh the horror!!). So we will happily spend 20-30 Billion USD (but of course, not even a couple of billion for the Mk-2) to prop up the production line of platforms way past their sell-by date.

P.S: The AMCA is definitely not 2 decades away if the project is backed whole heartedly by the IAF and the GoI. Most of the technologies required for the AMCA has already been developed in-house by the DRDO (the GE-414 engines will have to do for now sadly). It is only the integration which is left now that the CDR has been completed and the final configuration has been locked. If the IAF adopts the model followed by USAF in the F-35 induction (IOC variants without BVR capabilites were inducted in the 100s), we would be able to see AMCAs in active squadron service before 2030. But of course, who are we kidding? Who will fund the cushy post retirements positions in DRAL/TBAL (or their parent companies) of the IAF brass if they actually took some decisions to promote indigenous platforms.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

Quoting both of you as the points (and the hence the replies) are similar...

I think your frustration is palpable but I Have to respond to some of the wilder assertions here.

[The AMCA is definitely not 2 decades away if the project is backed whole heartedly by the IAF and the GoI. Most of the technologies required for the AMCA has already been developed in-house by the DRDO (the GE-414 engines will have to do for now sadly). It is only the integration which is left now that the CDR has been completed and the final configuration has been locked. If the IAF adopts the model followed by USAF in the F-35 induction (IOC variants without BVR capabilites were inducted in the 100s), we would be able to see AMCAs in active squadron service before 2030.

I'm sorry but I think you're being a bit disingenuous here. There is no chance that India can field an operationally cleared clean sheet 5th gen design, the AMCA, by the end of this decade. That flies in the face of literally all examples of contemporary development of similar platforms. Firstly even if we assume that somehow all the individual components are all sitting on a shelf ready to be cherry picked and accumulated into a coherent platform, you're forgetting that 5th gen platforms by their highly network centric nature are underpinned by an absolute mountain of electronic code, the very code is what sets back their development time (if we're to look at the F-35 as a major example). The model you speak of that the US adopted with the F-35 is that of concurrent development and let's not kid ourselves, it's been widely recognised now that maybe it's not the best idea when trying to integrate and field multiple cutting edge developments into one platform (take that other concurrent development hell platform, I speak of course of the Ford class of super carriers - the whole mil-av sphere is by now well versed with what a boondoggle the JSF was in its first decade). The US had to burn cash hand over fist due to the concurrency development model of the JSF, with the earliest tranches of the F-35 pretty much show ponies as they had crucial software impediments that took well over a decade of use and development to get on top of with the current tranches. The cost to upgrade those earlier tranches is often prohibitively expensive for all but the most well heeled customer. Let's assume that a lot of the ALIS issues the F-35 faced were a consequence of Lockheed Martin squeezing the US taxpayer for all it's worth, and that ADA and HAL wouldn't do so for India, you're still looking at an uphill battle in terms of budget and timeline to realistically field the AMCA at anywhere close to your projected timeline given that there hasn't even been a working prototype, let alone a test bed aircraft.

Other 5th gen programmes like the British Tempest programme have MUCH more conservative, but realistic, estimates for when they can actually field it. Sure the Brits are broke but they have decades of institutional knowhow in aviation - I think you'd find that they aren't being overly cautious on timelines. Just look at the Russians, using your supposition on the AMCA as a guideline, surely the RuAF would be operationally fielding the Su-57 by now, instead of it trickling along at low rate production and being a Victory Day flyover queen.

Did the Chinese start building 5th generation J-20s/J-31s all of a sudden one fine morning? NO!! They started with reverse engineering third rate copies of very basic Soviet platforms. Look where they are now.

At this juncture yes, you could bring up the Chinese example but let's not kid ourselves here either. The Chinese made smart moves in reverse engineering older platforms in order to build up their industrial base to start with (as V.Narayan has attested, India wasted that oppurtunity when it axed the Marut). But to get to where they are now in terms of the J-20, what you had was a coordinated nation state effort where you had the single minded pursuit of all levers of not just their incredibly well funded and large scale military industrial complex, but also industrial espionage of US fighter development at a hitherto unheard of scale to help give their development programmes a key leg up.

That level of focussed effort is really only possible in such a unitary state, and that's before we admit that India cannot compete fiscally at that sort of scale, let alone have the gumption or temerity to have state sanctioned industrial espionage of that sort. If India is to present itself increasingly as a mature nation state on the world stage and take leadership in areas of global affairs, then the latter is off the table. Which brings me to your next statement.

Conduct a few megaton bomb tests coupled with SLBM/ICBM tests demonstrating complete MIRV integration. The Chinese will remain quiet for the next decade. Pakistan is a rump state which we can take care of even now.

This is just wild. I'm sorry. An action such as this is the reserve of rogue states, such as North Korea, not mature democracies, or even nations hoping to be leaders on the world stage. I get that you're frustrated at the lack of attention given to domestic industry but you're letting your anger cloud you, dare I say it, in the shape of a mushroom cloud.

Most of us on here wish for and hope to see domestic platforms become more prevalent, it's why the successes of the IN in that regard are so touted on here, but we can't throw reason out the door in a fit of anger.

I'll end by saying this though. HAL is not entirely a victim here. If anything they're guilty of always overpromising and underdelivering - if they could put their money where their mouth is and field developments on track, or ahead of schedule, seize the initiative and put the ball in the court of the procurement babus, they'd likely have a bit more luck no doubt.

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by ads11

I think your frustration is palpable but I Have to respond to some of the wilder assertions here.

1.) AMCA development did not start yesterday. It started in 2010 (or even earlier depending on how you define started). I don't think 20 years is too short for fielding the first squadron of IOC aircrafts if our government and IAF were actually serious about stuff. You know as well as anyone that half the problems which were encountered by the Americans with the F-35 stemmed from the design decision to incorporate 3 different aircrafts into 1 platform (The F35B could be said to be the root of it all). Even so, lets assume that we would have faced similar issues and more with the AMCA - our own development hell. So what? The strongest steel is the one forged in the fires of hell (apologies for the melodrama but this is what living in this nation would do to you). Such experiences would only have served to impart priceless experience to our nascent aircraft development and manufacturing ecosystem about what and how not to do stuff. And the 90% of the money poured would have been into the local/Indian economy. Ask some IAF veterans active on this thread about the amount of resources (man and money) we invested into every Russian platform to make them fit for IAF service. Even 1/10th of such dedication towards indigenous platforms would provide such a big fillip to our domestic industries. IMHO, a much better investment than the myriad (mostly) unproductive socialist schemes into which governments have drained money (I know this is OT but I wrote it for context).

The Tempest is ostensibly a 6th generation platform so a bit of a delay ought to be fine. About the Su-57, the Russians had banked on Indian money funding their programme. Thankfully someone in the higher brass recognized Russian deceit and splashed a bucket of ice-water on their machinations. That would have been another money pit like the Goroshkov saga (and the now continuing Vikramaditya saga) in which we got a defunct platform after spending multiple billions of dollars.

2.) Let us put the AMCA aside for a moment. This MRFA circus pertains to 4++ gen platforms. Hence a suitable competitor would be the Tejas Mk-2. The step motherly treatment shown to this programme by the IAF and GoI alike coupled with the typical babudom approach of "Chalta Hai" by ADA has resulted in a situation that we have become the arche-typal "Dhobhi ka Kutta". Utilising the money saved in this MRFA circus and investing it into procuring 200 more Mk-1A's and accelerating Mk-2 induction along with going going for indigenous upgrade of the Su30s would always have resulted in a much more stronger and resilient air force. Instead look at where we are now. The point is that we have to start somwhere. World class products are not built in a day and certainly not by running towards foreign maal at the first given opportunity under the guise of emergency procurement.

3.) About the nuclear tests, I think it is high time we stopped evaluating ourselves according to hypocritical Western standards. What is it that makes the hundreds of thermonuclear tests conducted by the P5+1 countries moral but a similar approach by us paints us as a rogue state? To quote an actress "twada kutta tommy sada kutta kutta"? Oh and this Vishvwaguru syndrome which seems to afflict most Indians has resulted in a scenario in which we are forced to present our hind quarters to puny desert countries with population less than some districts of Delhi. What a sight to behold. A 7000 year civilization getting shown its worth by desert nomads. The world respects hard power (which the Chinese have). Hard power is not just a function of the capability. It requires intent too. We have a shortfall of capabilities and are entirely lacking the intent. India is never going to become a world power this way. We are a 3rd rate power right now and we will (maybe)become a 2nd rate power (solely as a result of economic expansion). The Chinese do not fall for such useless hypocritical Western moral dogmas. The result is that they will rule the world in the next 20-30 years. As for us, we would be lucky to survive into the next century with our present territorial borders intact.

You are right about me being angry. Maybe it is clouding some of my judgement. That does not make any of my points wrong.

I agree that HAL has its own share of problems but if you have been following HAL closely, you would have noticed that there has already been an OCEAN of change in the way HAL operates in the last 5 years. The Helicopter division of HAL has been doing stuff unheard of in the Indian PSU sphere (almost rivalling MNCs in some aspects). It built 15 LCH LSPs without any concrete orders from the IAF on its own internal funds. What did the IAF do? It refused to induct the helicopters forcing HAL to put them in storage.
Anyways, HAL has publicly states umpteen times (and walked those words too btw) that its ultimate goal is to act as an integrator of sub-systems which would be manufactured mostly by the private sector (and hence an entire eco-system of domestic Tier-2 suppliers/manufacturers was developed quite successfully for the Tejas programme). This would mean a faster turn-around time for future platforms.

Indian Navy seems to be the only silver lining among some very dark clouds. I derive most of my hopium and copium from the IN. May some higher power (and I am borderline agnostic that way) knock similar sense into the IAF (and the IA but that is out of the scope of discussion of this thread).

I recognize that most of us here want the same things. But I am afraid that the change is not happening fast enough. There is a big/bad storm coming. I don't think we, as a nation, are remotely prepared for it.

[Gansan]

I think our armed forces always want the latest models with all bells and whistles. Let us forget other background reasons for imports right now. I feel there can be some imports, but there should also be some locally produced weaopons/platforms which should be given to them, and they should be told to make do with it. "This is what you are gonna get. Now go and fight".

We will never become a super power by always buying weapons off the shelf from other countries. No country ever did, and never will.

[fhdowntheline]

We have been unable to produce an indigenous operational jet engine even after nearly 4 decades of research. Therefore, we need to be dependent on foreign countries for the same, not to mention some other advanced radars like AESA or , say an equivalent of a Meteor missile. Matters of national security must be dealt with pragmatically. What we still lack is a solid military- industrial- academic complex in order to be truly atmanirbhar. Any measures being taken up now will take a few decades to bear fruit.

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

We have been unable to produce an indigenous operational jet engine even after nearly 4 decades of research. Therefore, we need to be dependent on foreign countries for the same, not to mention some other advanced radars like AESA or , say an equivalent of a Meteor missile. Matters of national security must be dealt with pragmatically. What we still lack is a solid military- industrial- academic complex in order to be truly atmanirbhar. Any measures being taken up now will take a few decades to bear fruit.

1.) Operational Jet Engine: Despite investing peanuts, the GTRE Kaveri GTX-35VS attained 74kN of afterburning thrust on the test bed. DRDO has successfully mastered SCB technology. Why else do you think Safran is ready to collaborate on the 125kN engine project? Our scientists have crossed the critical threshold of technology with whatever meagre funding was provided to them by the GoI. Besides, the F404s/F414s will do just fine for now on the Mk-1A/ Mk-2.


2.) AESA Radar: Please look up LRDE's UTTAM AESA radar family. Also, GaN technology is also supposed to be integrated into the Uttam Mk-4.

3.) Meteor Equivalent: Again, the Astra Mk-2, which is going to undergo user-cum-development trials this year, while no METEOR equivalent (that would be the Astra Mk-3 or the SFDR which will undergo trials next year) is certainly on par with the AIM 120D (which the Pakistanis don't have btw).

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

You are right about me being angry. Maybe it is clouding some of my judgement. That does not make any of my points wrong.

I agree that HAL has its own share of problems but if you have been following HAL closely, you would have noticed that there has already been an OCEAN of change in the way HAL operates in the last 5 years. .

I think we're completely ignoring the sea-change that's happening in Indian defense procurement. As you have rightly alluded to the Navy is ahead of the curve and this is also evident in their approach to the twin engine deck fighter project with HAL.

The army too is inducting domestic solutions regarding wheeled armour, artillery guns etc The Ukraine conflict must've opened the eyes of senior hierarchy who kept ignoring the Arjun tank and it's inherent advantages over the T90. I am sure the army is at the cusp of being armed with fully indigenous solutions especially once the rifle production starts full swing.

That leaves us with the Achilles heel when it comes to self sufficiency, ie the Air Force. I think the current government has been abundantly clear as to its priorities when it comes to future fighter procurement. The investments being made by the private sector for future programs make it abundantly clear this is no flash in the pan.

I think HAL on it's part focus on its priorities, ie helicopters, trainers and fighters. They need to stop procrastinating about projects like transport carriers etc. The govt. on its part must prioritize diversifying arms production towards the private sector. For Eg. Arms and artillery should've been handled by private firms atleast a decade back.

Today's deficiencies are a result of indifferent bureaucracy, archaic/inefficient public sector institutions (not all), confused policies etc... Nonetheless the clear focus over the recent past and a recognition of the challenges ahead is very evident now. I too was surprised by the rapid progress of the AMCA program. I also respect both HAL and the govt. not falling for the trappings of life sized mockups to impress the gullible public, as evident in UK, Turkey, Iran, Russia etc. This time it feels different.

[ads11]

Coming back to the C-390 from Embraer, looks like they've scored a big win:
The Dutch have signed for 5 of them to replace their 4 C-130 Hercules

Source

I was alerted to it by these tweets:


Interesting that the Dutch made the argument that the C-390 outdoes the Hercules on availability and that lower maintenance headache drove this decision. It's especially so given we were just discussing how the C-390 pitched by Embraer would fit into the IAFs airlift mix.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

Coming back to the C-390 from Embraer, looks like they've scored a big win:
The Dutch have signed for 5 of them to replace their 4 C-130 Hercules

Now, this is very interesting. The Benelux countries generally like to have some commonality since they have a joint military command. So, given that the Belgians went with the A400M, I half expected the Dutch to go for the same but I stand corrected. I believe that the A400M is bigger and has a higher payload capacity despite being a turboprop (but probably costs a lot more). Also, speaking of Belgium, it seems that their used C130Hs have been sold to Pakistan - funny that they would rather buy used Western aircraft instead of brand new Chinese aircraft that's surely available to them.

Also, just as with the Rafale deliveries, it seems that the UAE Air Force has helped out the IAF again with the refueling of the IAF SU-30 MKIs that were enroute to Egypt for a 'Tactical Leadership Program'. Seems like the availability of our own fleet of Il-78 MKIs is really compromised now. At this point, I've seen more images of IAF aircraft being refueled by foreign A330 MRTTs from UAE, France and Australia than our own Il-78s

I wonder if the Emiratis get paid for this!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Now, this is very interesting. The Benelux countries generally like to have some commonality since they have a joint military command.

I am far from an expert on military matters, but a I think only the Belgium and The Netherlands have agreed for a central command for the navy? We have left out Luxemburg.

Aren’t the other military branches independent, or at Best organised within NATO, but not necessarily within Benelux constraints.

Jeroen

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I am far from an expert on military matters, but a I think only the Belgium and The Netherlands have agreed for a central command for the navy? We have left out Luxemburg.

Aren’t the other military branches independent, or at Best organised within NATO, but not necessarily within Benelux constraints.

Jeroen

My apologies, I stand corrected. It wasn't a common command but rather an air policing agreement. But even then there is a disparity as apparently Luxembourg won't authorize lethal force by Belgian or Dutch aircraft over its territory. The central command agreement is only for the Belgian and Dutch navies as you rightly pointed.

As part of the contract, the Netherlands can order Belgian fighter jets patrolling its airspace to shoot down a renegade aircraft, while Belgium will also have an authority to execute a similar order.

Luxembourg, which lacks an air force, has already ruled out the use of lethal force over its territory.