Team-BHP - Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by Its_Arkk (Post 5901547)

AI systems excel in predefined courses but struggle in with morally complex and ethical decisions.
And Autonomous drones and systems are highly reliant on secure communications and networks. Starshield, near-peer adversaries are actively developing electronic warfare capabilities to jam, spoof, or hack these systems whereas human pilot in a cockpit is not vulnerable to hacking, ensuring operational continuity even in contested environments where communications are degraded or denied.

You assume that AI today will be the same even in 2035. When DARPA said that real time changes to the AI agent where made to a F16 while it was being refueled.

Again in BVR distances a human pilot only source of information is from radar or AWACS or satellite based communication, all of which can be jammed or spoofed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Its_Arkk (Post 5901547)

You are forgetting not all combat scenarios involve simple air-to-air engagements or strikes. Close air support (CAS), search-and-rescue operations, and humanitarian missions often demand the nuanced judgment and adaptability that only humans can provide.
A drone might deliver a bomb with precision, but a pilot can assess the evolving battlefield in real-time, potentially calling off an attack to avoid civilian casualties.

Close air support is only possible against taliban and not with modern army that has lot of MANPAD to every platoon or a zone protected by SHORAD and BUK class AA. Look at ukraine war, all of bombing is done from 50km away. In the early days when Russia lacked the UMPK kit, they where flying close and getting shot down.

Drones have taken over as the number one killing machine in Ukraine war, even surpassing artillery. With fiber optic jam proof link or fixed wing suicide drones that have limited AI which is able to hit the target in area with full on jamming.

In standoff bombing missions there is ZERO difference between a pilot and drone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Its_Arkk (Post 5901547)

Also even if you can track a stealth fighter plane with thermal imaging from satellites and launch missles against it, its not successful as a radar lock and fighter jets have flares which are designed to emit emit a significantly stronger thermal signature than the engines of a plane for a brief period, specifically to confuse and divert heat-seeking missles.

Those days of spoofing a missile will be numbered once the seeker is using thermal imaging sensors and multi spectrum sensors with basic AI built in.

I will give you a analogy, in CCTV or IP camera world, in late 2010 till 2020, the cameras used to trigger a event based on motion detection, this could be a human or a car headlight or rain. The camera didn't know, so lot of false alarms. This evolved to Human filter with limited AI, where it would only trigger if a human passed, this is still in 2D plane. This has now evolved to face detection and recognition, to animal detection to car detection and so forth, such that the camera will not loose tracking, even after being blocked by a large object, still being processed in 2D plane. All of this with just less then 5 W of power consumption with ram and memory size less than the most basic smart phone today.

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Originally Posted by Its_Arkk (Post 5901648)

I think the USAF knows a thing or two about military aviation—certainly more than your beloved Elon. If they genuinely believed drones would replace manned military jets within the next 10 years, they wouldn’t have spent millions upgrading the 72-year-old B-52 Stratofortress to keep it operational beyond 2050, or on upgrading the F-15, or developing the F-35.

Please dont blindly believe whatever Elon spews out of his mouth :)!

DARPA knows more, check the link above. NGAD was tested years back but pentagon is currently re-evaluating whether it will be obsolete and the cost of the program is also not helping. Elon is only stating the obvious.

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Originally Posted by DIY410 (Post 5901657)

Again in BVR distances a human pilot only source of information is from radar or AWACS or satellite based communication, all of which can be jammed or spoofed.

Of course, in BVR engagements opponents won't ever see each other. Dogfights are a thing of the past (mostly). SatCom can be breached or spoofed because they have a massive range and sphere of influence. AWACS and AEW&C have a smaller sphere of influence and have more flexibility as a platform.
Drones can also be "hacked" because most remote forms of communications can be taken over and security layers can be "brute forced" through. Remember this incident :

Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force-screenshot-20241230-110143.png

Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force-screenshot-20241230-110437.png

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIY410 (Post 5901657)

Close air support is only possible against Taliban and not with modern army that has lot of MANPAD to every platoon or a zone protected by SHORAD and BUK class AA. Look at Ukraine war, all of bombing is done from 50km away. In the early days when Russia lacked the UMPK kit, they where flying close and getting shot down.

CAS is a requirement in any war, while it can only be carried out after achieving untested air superiority, which Russia has failed at. I think Attach Helicopters offer more diverse range of abilities to "sanitize" the ground with Better target identification and lethality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIY410 (Post 5901657)

Those days of spoofing a missile will be numbered once the seeker is using thermal imaging sensors and multi spectrum sensors with basic AI built in.

Heat seeking missiles have been in use since the 1950s, starting with the AIM-9 Sidewinder. These missiles can mostly ONLY track a full fledged stealth aircraft from aft as their thermal signature is greatly masked on all other angles.

This article was an interesting read : https://fighterjetsworld.com/air/fig...obsolete/8811/
"But even on a good day, looking for fifth-generation aircraft in the open skies with IRST is like “looking through a drinking straw,” said Bronk."

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoi (Post 5901876)

SatCom can be breached or spoofed because they have a massive range and sphere of influence. AWACS and AEW&C have a smaller sphere of influence and have more flexibility as a platform.
Drones can also be "hacked" because most remote forms of communications can be taken over and security layers can be "brute forced" through.

A pilot relies on information given by AWACS and Satellite to get a situational awareness, since everything done in Ukraine are now at stand off distances. For getting real time intelligence and situational awareness in a aircraft from stand off distances, the pilot has to rely on Satcom or other secure links.
How is that any different from the drone connection being hacked.
A western stealth aircraft is also mostly radio silent and is unlikely to use its radar and is relying on external link.

Like I said in Ukraine war, drones are now hitting the target without any communication link. If it did have a link its only for video confirmation.

RQ170 was operational since early 2000s and and US was underestimating Iran.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoi (Post 5901876)

The US can get air superiority with a third world country but not with a similar peer, that too near the opponents home turf with networked AA along with tree and building cover.
Even Houthis where able to force the US carrier strike group to move 1500 miles away because they had the means to hit the ship. As technology proliferates with advanced sea skimming missiles, aircraft carrier will be sunk easily.

Attack helicopters, watch the video below and see how much the pilot is risking, one pilot scrapped the trees. A battle zone filled with MANPADS or SHORAD under tree cover means attack helicopters roles are being filled by drones.
https://x.com/MyLordBebo/status/1869086717841732042

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoi (Post 5901876)

I could spot the F35 exhaust with a $200 thermal camera equipped with a Chinese thermal sensor from several km away, all it needed was a focus adjustment. I could also spot a LCH helicopter and airlines which have much lower exhaust temperature. Just like its able to spot the heat of my foot print for several seconds from 20 feet away. The heat signature reduction of aircrafts having such engine nozzle like F22 doesn't make a meaningful impact with todays cutting edge sensors, which have drastically reduced the noise and increased the gain. Also even the nose of the aircraft and other leading edges gets quiet hot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoi (Post 5901876)

"But even on a good day, looking for fifth-generation aircraft in the open skies with IRST is like “looking through a drinking straw,” said Bronk."

Which is why the US is using IR based space assets to track missiles and low RCS aircrafts. The Starshield which will be in the thousands, each will have thermal sensors. This will give the information to the aircraft as to where to look.

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Originally Posted by NomadSK (Post 5901892)

The "A" in the AI is "artificial", so how can it replace real humans when moral or ethical or last minute decisions are to be taken ? I feel machine learning can take you to the door, but not open it. May be I'm wrong.

We run all our refineries/gas plants remotely through DCS and there's not a single soul in the plant, except some souls carrying out maintenance activities, here and there, but we cannot replace them, at max we can reduce them with technology.

You would be surprised by the future potential of drones in gas plants. They already use them for inspection. But look at the below cool ideas.
https://x.com/Docneuroeo/status/1869062062028243416

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIY410 (Post 5902075)

Even Houthis where able to force the US carrier strike group to move 1500 miles away because they had the means to hit the ship. As technology proliferates with advanced sea skimming missiles, aircraft carrier will be sunk easily.

I dont see any news sources saying they forced the Carrier strike group 1500miles away except the Houthis claiming they pushed them away and also claiming to down a F/A-18, which really doesnt hold any water when satellite imagery shows they didnt move away and the F/A-18 downed was a friendly fire.

Seems like you are making stuff up just to stay in the argument.

Yeah a cruise missle came close to 1mile away from a destroyer which is real close it was taken care of by the onboard CIWS. And close calls like this happens all the time in a hostile rich environment. Just because it came close doesnt mean its a failure of defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIY410 (Post 5902075)

I could spot the F35 exhaust with a $200 thermal camera equipped with a Chinese thermal sensor from several km away, all it needed was a focus adjustment.

You can detect them flying at 40000-50000 feet ?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIY410 (Post 5901657)

You assume that AI today will be the same even in 2035.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIY410 (Post 5902075)

A pilot relies on information given by AWACS and Satellite to get a situational awareness, since everything done in Ukraine are now at stand off distances.....

Sir,

Unlike most of social media the threads on Team BHP, focused on aircraft/aviation & warships/naval warfare, follow an unwritten rule of serious information exchange and a quest for genuine learning. On the occasion where two contributors disagree it is always expressed in a professional and courteous manner. These threads are not for trolling or putting forth unnecessary combative arguments or doling out half baked bumf of the kind that floats around on social media. Both your posts marked above are full of theoretical horse manure that comes from an overexposure to video games. It would be a waste of time for our readers for me to rebuff each of your many incorrect points. So may I politely request you to ease up. This is a thread for experienced and mature folks many of whom including me made our careers/businesses in aviation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by V.Narayan (Post 5902156)

While its easy to dismiss others opinion as what you describe, I will stand corrected if anyone is able to counter those points, my point is drones are the future and I have made the point for its case with real world examples in the current Ukraine conflict.

My point in those last two posts are specific to communication being jammed only to drones and not piloted aircrafts.

I also believe you are misinformed to think that I have no experience in these matters, as a person who has visited every aero India show since 2003. Why do you think I follow the Ukraine war very closely, if I had no interest in these matters. This is not the only forum I post in, I post in other defense specific forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Its_Arkk (Post 5902145)

The Abram Lincoln carrier was moved further away after Houthis launched missiles, its on multiple non western news.

CIWS is the last resort and it doesn't have a 1:1 kill ratio. The CIWS of the several Russian ships attacked in the black sea, failed to neutralize the threat.

It is a close call but the US will not risk it.

I never said at 40000 feet, I said few km. I have to visually see the aircraft, only then will I know where to point the thermal camera. So considering the length of the Yelahanka runway itself, that is few kms.