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Old 28th February 2019, 22:00   #436
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

TV shows and news articles are full of errors.

1) AIM - 120 has been called "AARAAM" missile (A instead of M)
2) Apparently, PAF tried to attack Indian Army base with AMRAAM missile.

Duh!

Last edited by SmartCat : 28th February 2019 at 22:01.
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Old 28th February 2019, 23:20   #437
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Rumours are doing rounds that the downed PAF F-16 was an ex-Jordanian F-16B Block 20( Serial No. 78-0269) and one of the pilots in KIA, probably lynched by the Pakistani civilian mob mistaking him for being an Indian. The name of the deceased pilot, a Wg Cdr and son of a PAF Air Marshal, is also on the internet.

This is probably the reason why initial reports said three chutes were spotted and false Pakistani claims that one IAF pilot was in the hospital. One chute was definitely Wg Cdr Abhinandan's, the other two probably were the crew of the downed F-16.

If true, this will be the first ever F-16 kill by a MiG-21. In a repeat of history, PAF Wg Cdr Middlecoat's F-104, that was shot down in 1971 near Jamnagar, was also ex-Jordanian.

Last edited by skanchan95 : 28th February 2019 at 23:26.
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Old 1st March 2019, 07:48   #438
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartCat View Post
TV shows and news articles are full of errors.

1) AIM - 120 has been called "AARAAM" missile (A instead of M)
2) Apparently, PAF tried to attack Indian Army base with AMRAAM missile.

Duh!
Sir for all we know it may be a missile which would have been fired at our planes and this particular one must have missed and fallen down. Also reports say that our armed forces have conclusive proof of our targets being painted with a laser for being targeted by Laser Guided Weapons.
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Old 1st March 2019, 12:01   #439
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by Foxbat View Post
Regarding the mystery about the F-16 claimed to be shot down I personally believe its true for one simple fact: Pakistan claimed to have two IAFs pilots in custody, one in good health and one injured one getting treated in a hospital. Later they changed it to only one when they realised that they had claimed their own pilot shot down as an Indian! Its impossible for them to make such a claim and then back track without a very compelling reason.
I'm hearing from a pilot who I follow on Quora - PAF Wing Cmdr Shahzaz Ud Din was knocked unconscious upon ejecting. Irate villagers on the other side of the LoC were hearing news that "many Indian jets" were shot down. The half-conscious PAF airman was unable to identify himself successfully and the villagers beat him half to death. He has since succumbed to his injuries.
Disclaimer: Make what you will of this. The pilot I mentioned on Quora is Ron Baruah.

What's more, Mr.Baruah has latched on to the part number 80269 that's visible in a viral pic of the downed F-16's wreckage.
Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force-mainqimgdb8a2bb48be810189844a6a658ff7501.jpeg
By referencing it in www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16 (a F-16 aircraft database of sorts), he concludes that this one is a third-hand ex-Jordanian F-16.

Anyway, it looks like Wing Cmdr Shahzaz Ud Din has fallen prey to Pakistan's own propaganda. If this is true, it makes one wish that they hadn't lied in their propaganda...if only the villagers had known that it was only 1 downed IAF jet, this officer might have lived!

Last edited by locusjag : 1st March 2019 at 12:09.
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Old 1st March 2019, 12:27   #440
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by locusjag View Post
I'm hearing from a pilot who I follow on Quora - PAF Wing Cmdr Shahzaz Ud Din was knocked unconscious upon ejecting. Irate villagers on the other side of the LoC were hearing news that "many Indian jets" were shot down. The half-conscious PAF airman was unable to identify himself successfully and the villagers beat him half to death. He has since succumbed to his injuries.
Disclaimer: Make what you will of this. The pilot I mentioned on Quora is Ron Baruah.

What's more, Mr.Baruah has latched on to the part number 80269 that's visible in a viral pic of the downed F-16's wreckage.
Attachment 1853479
By referencing it in www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16 (a F-16 aircraft database of sorts), he concludes that this one is a third-hand ex-Jordanian F-16.

Anyway, it looks like Wing Cmdr Shahzaz Ud Din has fallen prey to Pakistan's own propaganda. If this is true, it makes one wish that they hadn't lied in their propaganda...if only the villagers had known that it was only 1 downed IAF jet, this officer might have lived!
Look at the image closely, is that a porthole (with fasteners around the periphery, right next to the connector box thing with 2 tubes coming out) So this is a F16 with a window.

Last edited by xotiq : 1st March 2019 at 12:30.
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Old 1st March 2019, 12:46   #441
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
Rumours are doing rounds that the downed PAF F-16 was an ex-Jordanian F-16B Block 20( Serial No. 78-0269) and one of the pilots in KIA, probably lynched by the Pakistani civilian mob mistaking him for being an Indian. The name of the deceased pilot, a Wg Cdr and son of a PAF Air Marshal, is also on the internet.
A quick check on the net tells that the F-16 with that serial is indeed a two-seater !!! If indeed the second PAF pilot got lynched by his own countrymen it is sad. Across the fog of war and anger every soldier is some mother's son.

If the facts do emerge that the MiG-21 shot down the F-16 before being shot down by another F-16 it is news for the world of aviation. It is a testimony not only for the winged delta design of the MiG-21 but also the effectiveness of the Bison upgrade.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 1st March 2019 at 12:52.
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Old 1st March 2019, 13:05   #442
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
A quick check on the net tells that the F-16 with that serial is indeed a two-seater !!! If indeed the second PAF pilot got lynched by his own countrymen it is sad. Across the fog of war and anger every soldier is some mother's son.

If the facts do emerge that the MiG-21 shot down the F-16 before being shot down by another F-16 it is news for the world of aviation. It is a testimony not only for the winged delta design of the MiG-21 but also the effectiveness of the Bison upgrade.
I read this article on the net. While quite a feat (if this is true), 3rd Gen Fighters are supposed to be no easy pushovers if engaged in WVR dogfight scenario with any 4th gen fighters.

https://theaviationist.com/2019/02/2...-16d-block-52/


Excerpts:

The MiG-21 Bison is an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21. Although the design is obsolete, its low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate and acceleration, and the helmet mounted sight combined with high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles are among the factors that can make the upgraded MiG-21 a threatening adversary, even for more modern fighters. Let’s not forget what happened during Cope India 2004…
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Old 1st March 2019, 14:59   #443
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Quote:
Originally Posted by locusjag View Post
The pilot I mentioned on Quora is Ron Baruah.
What's more, Mr.Baruah has latched on to the part number 80269 that's visible in a viral pic of the downed F-16's wreckage.
The young guy is a PC Simulator pilot, not a real pilot!!! I can show it to you, but will desist from doing so.

The pic you showed above actually has been proven to be the inner sides of the same downed IAF MiG-21 Bison. The crushed engine part in the original pic from where this image has been cropped, matches with the MiG-21's R-25 engine than a F-16B's PW F100 engine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Across the fog of war and anger every soldier is some mother's son.
No one likes to see a soldier getting killed like this and it is just sad. He was just following orders and doing his duty just like a good soldier should. The Pakistani Govt and Army has again proven itself to be shameless by not acknowledging OR denying the incident. The PAF is a far more professional, potent and moderate of their three military arms, one would have expected them to atleast acknowledge or denythis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
If the facts do emerge that the MiG-21 shot down the F-16 before being shot down by another F-16 it is news for the world of aviation. It is a testimony not only for the winged delta design of the MiG-21 but also the effectiveness of the Bison upgrade.
The Bison upgrade was a cost effective programme for the air force that was always known since the late 60s as a MiG-21 Force. If the kill is confirmed, it will be a fitting answer to the our own countrymen who have been bashing the MiG-21s, for decades.

The fact that Wg Cdr Abhinandan was a Su-30 pilot before being posted to the Sword Arms to fly the Bison, clearly shows that the IAF considers the Bison a potent platform good enough to take on any threat PAF throws at us. The criticism and the idiotic question of Why MiG-21s were flying that day and not Su-30s instead would have been acceptable if it was legacy MiG-21bis or a MiG-21M flying CAP on that day, but certainly not the Bison.
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Old 1st March 2019, 15:12   #444
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

The dogfight between Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, flying a Russian made MiG-21 and a Pakistan Air Force US made F-16 over the skies of the Nowshera in Rajouri District of Jammu Province on Wednesday lasted just 90 seconds, a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer said on condition of anonymity.

The 90 seconds will perhaps go down in the history of aircraft encounters.



In the 90 seconds, the Pakistani fighter fired two US AMRAAM missiles and an aging MiG-21 shot down a fourth generation F-16 fighter — a feat that will go into the history books considering the asymmetry between the two fighters. Soon after, the MiG, piloted by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman was shot down.

The AMRAAM missiles are beyond visual range missiles, which means they can be fired from a stand-off distance. They are also all- weather and day and night capable missiles. Parts of the AMRAAM missile were recovered by India and made public in a press conference in New Delhi.

“Only F -16 aircraft can fire AMRAAM missiles. These have been used in violation of conditions imposed on Pakistan by the United States when these were sold,” a second senior IAF official who did not want to named said.



Full Screen


Those conditions state that the fighters can’t be used in offensive actions but only defensive ones.

On Wednesday, the incoming pack of 12 Pakistani fighters, comprising US-made F-16, French-made Mirages and JF-17 fighters made in Pakistan were detected by an Airborne Warning and Control System (AWAC) hovering inside India. Pakistan was responding to air strikes on a Jaish-e-Mohammed terror camp in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

Immediately, fighters from Avantipora, Srinagar and other airfields were scrambled. The MiG-21 being the closest, approached the PAF fighters, a senior official in the security establishment who did not want to be named said. From a distance, the entire dogfight was picked up the AWAC and also other Indian fighters.

The MiG-21 locked on to the F-16 when it was flying at about 15000ft and the F-16 at about 9000 ft. The MiG-21 started diving to get a better shot at the F-16. The F-16 took evasive measures. It went into a steep climb,” a second senior official in the security establishment said and added that “the F-16 climbed to about 26000 ft.”

By this time the MiG-21’s pilot had skillfully manoeuvred his aircraft behind the PAF fighter, positioning itself at a sixty-degree angle for maximum impact. It fired a Russian made Vympel R-73 (NATO name AA-11 Archer) missile hitting the F-16. Even as R-73 missile was closing into its target, the wingman of the F-16 now in the crosshairs moved in. He fired his weapon and hit the MiG-21. “No radio call from the MiG -21 was received,” the official said.

Rarely, if ever, has a MIG-21, designed and developed in the 1960s at the height of the cold war, shot down an F-16. The MiG-21 which shot down the F-16 on Wednesday joined the Indian Air Force in 1980s. “The MiG-21’s were upgraded, but the design is the same. It takes immense skill to out-manoeuver a fourth generation fighter. It is similar to taking on a BMW automobile in a race , with a Maruti-800,” a test pilot quoted.
This is how it happened .
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:15   #445
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Not necessarily!!! In its days, the MIG-21 was considered to be amongst the most dangerous. Even today, in a "within visual range" turning combat, nothing comes close to the bison. It is still the fastest in a dive attack mode. This was infamously used by some other nations in their wars against western birds to a great amount of success. Only a 4.5 or 4+ generation bird with unstable design and extreme manoeuvring capabilities like the mki or Tejas or Rafael can outturn the bison. IAF is not operating them out of wish rather only out of compulsion due to lack of availability of its replacement. I for one was hoping to see a Tejas scoring it's first kill.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:50   #446
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by quattroa4 View Post
T Soon after, the MiG, piloted by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman was shot down.
What I came across is that the MiG was not shot down, but was caught in the turbulence of the R37 missile that was fired from the MiG itself, at the F-16. While the missile hit it's target, the MiG itself went down due to the situation it got into. Pilot ejected, and the winds carried him 7km into enemy territory. The plane itself crashed on our soil.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 12:59   #447
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by condor View Post
What I came across is that the MiG was not shot down, but was caught in the turbulence of the R37 missile that was fired from the MiG itself, at the F-16.
Quote:
Originally Posted by quattroa4 View Post
The MiG-21 locked on to the F-16 when it was flying at about 15000ft and the F-16 at about 9000 ft. The MiG-21 started diving to get a better shot at the F-16. The F-16 took evasive measures. It went into a steep climb,” a second senior official in the security establishment said and added that “the F-16 climbed to about 26000 ft.”

By this time the MiG-21’s pilot had skillfully manoeuvred his aircraft behind the PAF fighter, positioning itself at a sixty-degree angle for maximum impact. It fired a Russian made Vympel R-73 (NATO name AA-11 Archer) missile hitting the F-16. Even as R-73 missile was closing into its target, the wingman of the F-16 now in the crosshairs moved in. He fired his weapon and hit the MiG-21. “No radio call from the MiG -21 was received,” the official said.
There are several versions floating around. One more version I received was that there was a momentary issue with the MIG 21's thrust and was shot down during this period.

Only the IAF may know the truth and if they do, they may never release those details.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 13:20   #448
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
Not necessarily!!! In its days, the MIG-21 was considered to be amongst the most dangerous. Even today, in a "within visual range" turning combat, nothing comes close to the bison. It is still the fastest in a dive attack mode. This was infamously used by some other nations in their wars against western birds to a great amount of success. Only a 4.5 or 4+ generation bird with unstable design and extreme manoeuvring capabilities like the mki or Tejas or Rafael can outturn the bison. IAF is not operating them out of wish rather only out of compulsion due to lack of availability of its replacement. I for one was hoping to see a Tejas scoring it's first kill.
I wish the same .What a day that should had been for Tejas! But my question is, why the SAM batteries wasn't deployed ? We have Akash missiles operational or any other operational platform , why it wasn't used ?
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Old 2nd March 2019, 13:46   #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
What I came across is that the MiG was not shot down, but was caught in the turbulence of the R37 missile that was fired from the MiG itself, at the F-16. While the missile hit it's target, the MiG itself went down due to the situation it got into. Pilot ejected, and the winds carried him 7km into enemy territory. The plane itself crashed on our soil.
The MiG wreck was found seperate pieces at quite some distance from each other in PoK, not in our part of Kashmir. It also means it disintegrated mid-air because of a missile hit. Some parts also had sharpnel holes, which again indicates missile hit damage.

Last edited by skanchan95 : 2nd March 2019 at 13:47.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 13:47   #450
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by quattroa4 View Post
I wish the same .What a day that should had been for Tejas! But my question is, why the SAM batteries wasn't deployed ? We have Akash missiles operational or any other operational platform , why it wasn't used ?
SAM batteries were not operational as the airspace wasn't closed down so there is always the danger of hitting civilian aircraft. And the thought that the Tejas or Rafael can outrun the Bison is purely wrong because they just can't. In a dash the Bison is way faster than either of them. What they can do better than the Bison is use their advanced avionics and use their better radars, guiding their better BVRs from standoff ranges. Even the F15 eagles were consistently bettered by the Bison in various training exercises between IAF and USAF. Bison carries extremely potent WVR and BVR missiles using its Kyopko radar and ELTA made jammers in a pod. So Bison can never be taken as a relic of the 60s or junk by any decent AF.
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