[Foxbat]

The IAF is now saying "I think they have lost a F-16 aircraft in that combat. " before they were certain they had shot down a F-16.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/68253658.cms


A simple play in words or is the IAF now backtracking ?

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

The IAF is now saying "I think they have lost a F-16 aircraft in that combat. " before they were certain they had shot down a F-16.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/68253658.cms


A simple play in words or is the IAF now backtracking ?

Probably because they do not have any conclusive proof that the F-16 was downed. It may well have been hit, but could have still been flyable and escaped with damages not serious enough for it to crash. Getting hit by cannon fire or a missile doesn't always mean the aircraft will lose control and crash.

Love the way the Air Chief responded professionally to the question on the number of casualities in the Air strike:

"We don't count human casualties. We count what targets we have hit or not."

So far it's only the politicians who are foolishly boasting about the number of terrorists killed and their unruly tongues have caused all sorts of controversy over the airstrike. The IAF stayed well clear of this controversy and has responded dutifully and professionally, right from the execution of the airstrike to responding to the media. That they have left the onus of releasing proof of the airstrikes on the govt again shows their professionalism.

Meanwhile, there are reports that an IAF Su-30MKI shot down a Pakistani drone in Rajasthan this morning.

[mav2000]

Question from me: If no F16 or any other Pakistan plane was hit, then how did a Pakistani air Force pilot die?

[SPARKled]

This is all speculation by times group. The air force has already confirmed that a F16 has gone down in their press conference. Pakistan has also initially reported 3 pilots captured which subsequently became 1. No confusion here.

[mpksuhas]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Rumours are doing rounds that the downed PAF F-16 was an ex-Jordanian F-16B Block 20( Serial No. 78-0269) and one of the pilots in KIA, probably lynched by the Pakistani civilian mob mistaking him for being an Indian. The name of the deceased pilot, a Wg Cdr and son of a PAF Air Marshal, is also on the internet.

Many online reports were taking below FB post as reference -



Link

Quote from news article

The news that Shahaz-ud-Din's plane was shot down was first reported by London-based lawyer Khalid Umar, who says he received it privately, from individuals related to the F-16 pilot’s family.

Full article

I am not sure how in this age of mobile internet, how death of a pilot can be kept a secret.

Along with that, this video was shared as proof since you can hear people mentioning about 'two pilots' in the same.

However, I was not able to makeout if there were one or two pilots after watching the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOdrITApv0

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by mpksuhas

Many online reports were taking below FB post as reference

All that confusion began with the discovery of the number 80269 on what has been claimed to a fuse box in a fighter jet. This was inferred to be and matched with the serial number 78-0269 of an F-16B. It was assumed that this former Dutch Air Force Block 20 F-16B(serial no J-269), that was acquired by the Royal Jordanian Air Force, was assumed to be transferred and in service with the PAF. However, it is said that 78-0269 was never transferred to the PAF and is still in service with the RJAF.

The above assumption does not even matter now because it has been conclusively proven that those wreckage pictures are of the downed IAF MiG-21, not an F-16.

As of now, there is no conclusive proof that a PAF F-16 went down after combat with IAF jets.

Originally Posted by mpksuhas

I am not sure how in this age of mobile internet, how death of a pilot can be kept a secret.

Along with that, this video was shared as proof since you can hear people mentioning about 'two pilots' in the same.

However, I was not able to makeout if there were one or two pilots after watching the video.

It is difficult to make out the parachutes in the video. The puff of smokes I think have been assumed to be parachutes, but they easily be the same MiG-21 breaking up after the missile hit and the wreckage coming down as multiple pieces.

Meanwhile here's another video where eyewitness claims he saw two chutes:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...89907167863392

Some things he said seems exaggerated, so take it with a pinch of salt.

[srishiva]

I think the Pakistani commoner's narrative has been the one that is accepted. Pakistan is known not to accept their soldier's bodies in previous instances too.

But then, do we want to keep talking about this ? There seem to be lies and not coming out with facts on multiple things in this whole exercise. Hope we move on to talking about what we intended in this thread or pause for a while.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by srishiva

Pakistan is known not to accept their soldier's bodies in previous instances too.

Yes, that is true. All Pakistan has to do to show supposedly KIA - Wg. Cdr Shahaz ud-din's status(if such a pilot exists) would be to just parade him in front of the media and that would be the end of it. Even that has not been done, adding to the mystery.

Normally and as history has proven, the Pakistanis do all they can rebuff Indian claims, at times going overboard. But in the case of the claimed F-16 downing and an F-16 pilot KIA, there is deafening silence from their side.

To make my final post on this topic and taking a completely dispassionate and neutral stance based on the evidences available openly, it is possible that the MiG-21 Bison managed to shoot down a Pakistani F-16 that day. It is also possible that the MiG-21 Bison was knocked out of the sky before Wg Cdr Abhinandan did a thing. Without evidence we are left without much more than a few unsubstantiated claims.

If the IAF did not shoot the F-16 down in return, then Pakistan managed to embarrass the IAF not because of the MiG-21 loss, because as per the Pakistanis, IAF would have made a false kill claim on a PAF F-16.

At the same time, Pakistan will never openly admit the loss of their F-16 because they have lot of pride & ego associated with their F-16 fleet. For e.g when Pakistani F-16s & Soviet MiG-23s clashed near the Afghan-Pak border in the late 80s, it resulted in the loss of a PAF F-16A. Pakistani and Western sources consider it a friendly fire incident where an AIM-9L hit the PAF F-16. But the Soviet-backed Afghan government of the time claimed that a Soviet MiG-23MLD downed the Pakistani F-16A that day.

Pakistan has a motivation to deny and hide the use of the F-16s that day, even if one didn't get shot down (the discovery of the AIM-120 wreckage in India clearly proves that PAF's claims of non-deployment of F-16s that day are false). Deploying F-16s to take revenge on behalf of terrorists would be shocking and beyond belief for rest of the world, but not India!!! The US will eventually discover if Pakistan is short of an F-16. If they are, an F-16 may crash in early April taking the pilot with it who shares the same surname.

May be India will provide evidence to back their claim, or maybe nothing will happen because there may be nothing to be found.

EDIT: this article probably puts an end to all speculation about a PAF F-16 pilot called Wg Cdr Shahaz ud Din, as such a pilot does not exist.!!!!:
Why claims about the PAF pilot’s lynching don’t add up

[21Archer84]

May be not as easy as it is but, wouldn't an answer from the IAF Pilot close the question of If the PAF's F-16 indeed crashed?
I do know that he didn't realize where he landed after he was hit.However, I wonder, if not to destroy an enemy's aircraft why would he end up so far into the enemy's territory.

[sun_king]

All I wish to see is this...

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by sun_king

All I wish to see is this...

The Su-30 that shot down a PAF drone yesterday can probably have the silhouette of a Chinese built WZ-7 Soaring Dragon UAV on its nose (based on the photos of the apparent wreckage of the UAV shot down yesterday). It is a high speed drone not easy to shootdown.

[PGA]

War is the realm of uncertainty; three quarters of the factors on which action in war is based are wrapped in a fog of greater or lesser uncertainty. A sensitive and discriminating judgment is called for; a skilled intelligence to scent out the truth.

— Carl von Clausewitz

Whilst we try to discern the fact, few points for reference

The aircraft which went up to take on Pak strike were ORP (Ops readiness platform) launches.

All ORP launches are ground controlled or are under AEW&C control.

Thus a reasonably clear picture is and was available to the operations room, allotment of targets is coordinated and commanded by the operations commander.

Thus IAF knows very well if it scored a hit or not, did it down the F 16 or it went back limping. I also feel that IAF will not or cannot lie unless someone wanted to take the cover of Clauswitz's statement and get his momentary fame. So I am a believer.

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by sun_king

All I wish to see is this...

That would not happen since the Mig that brought the F16 down(If at all it did.) also crashed.

[Maveryq]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

The Su-30 that shot down a PAF drone yesterday can probably have the silhouette of a Chinese built WZ-7 Soaring Dragon UAV on its nose (based on the photos of the apparent wreckage of the UAV shot down yesterday). It is a high speed drone not easy to shootdown.

So, does the kill get transferred to a new plane if the old one has crashed? Does the pilot carry the kills irrespective of the aircraft he is flying?

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Maveryq

So, does the kill get transferred to a new plane if the old one has crashed? Does the pilot carry the kills irrespective of the aircraft he is flying?

Normally, The kill mark stays on the victorious aircraft. If the aircraft crashes, the kills marks in many cases, are/were not transferred to a new aircraft.

For e.g. the F-14s that shot down Libyan Su-22 had kill marks painted on them. Later on, one of those F-14s flown by the first ever female carrier based F-14 pilot crashed while in approach to land on carrier because of an engine failure. The crash killed her but her RIO survived. The kills marks were not painted transferred to a new aircraft. The other F-14, which is preserved somewhere in the US was restored with full VF-41 squadron markings and a Su-22 silhouette on the nose.

At least one of the two F/A-18Cs that shot down a MiG-21 carried that Kill mark on its nose throughout its entire service with the US Navy. Israeli Air Force Jets are known for following this practice.

But there are cases also where the pilot painted kill marks on a new aircraft if the actual aircraft crashed. SO it works both ways I guess.