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Old 29th March 2019, 20:04   #541
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

^^^
I think a case of friendly fire is being investigated.

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Old 30th March 2019, 01:41   #542
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by ashroy_6 View Post
This has already been speculated long time back. It's sad that such news is been reported by the media and not Iaf. I am sure the govt, army and Iaf knew this since the beginning.

The IAF's report hasnt as yet been released and hence the media reports. I am sure once it has been submitted, we will know the complete details.
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Old 30th March 2019, 14:27   #543
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by Maveryq View Post
The IAF's report hasnt as yet been released and hence the media reports. I am sure once it has been submitted, we will know the complete details.
Do you think it takes so long for IAF to realise this screwup???? This is nothing but govt bureaucracy at its best. They are just buying time so that public forgets.
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Old 30th March 2019, 17:40   #544
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by ashroy_6 View Post
Do you think it takes so long for IAF to realise this screwup???? This is nothing but govt bureaucracy at its best. They are just buying time so that public forgets.

There is a court of inquiry in process. As far as I understand, that is a committee which has to submit its report. Dont think that its functioning will be impacted by the memory of the lay public. They will submit its report in due time. One issue which might be styming them might be that the black box of the Mi17 is missing and was possibly pilfered from the crash site. Such courts of inquiry are a normal affair with the military after such events.
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Old 30th March 2019, 20:32   #545
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Originally Posted by Maveryq View Post
There is a court of inquiry in process. As far as I understand, that is a committee which has to submit its report. Dont think that its functioning will be impacted by the memory of the lay public. They will submit its report in due time. One issue which might be styming them might be that the black box of the Mi17 is missing and was possibly pilfered from the crash site. Such courts of inquiry are a normal affair with the military after such events.
I could be wrong but military air crash reports/causes are never made public. In this case, the crash was suspicious from the beginning itself and happened at a time when there was an incoming raid. So there are many who hope that the truth of this very unfortunate event will be made public or for that matter, the events of the aerial clash and air strikes also, in due course of time - Not because someone is questioning the Forces, but because there is an eagerness to know the truth, however bitter it may or may not be.

Last edited by skanchan95 : 30th March 2019 at 20:34.
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Old 30th March 2019, 21:19   #546
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Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
I could be wrong but military air crash reports/causes are never made public.

You are probably right. I am sure that what limited information will be released will be for greater clarity regarding the issues which led to the unfortunate incident. Any speculation about the factors which led to the crash will be not helpful as will be impugning motives.
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Old 5th April 2019, 13:12   #547
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

The quoted article could be a planted one as it claims to be quoting "Unnamed" and probably non-existent US officials.

I don't know what is stopping the govt from debunking such magazines, if indeed the F-16 was shot down was Wg Cdr Abhinandan. I do not care about the credibility of the govt's claims being questioned, it is the credibility of the IAF that is being questioned by such articles and that is quite provoking.

US Count Found No Pak F-16s Missing, Contradicts India's Claim: Report

Quote:
The Indian Air Force had displayed pieces of the AMRAAM missile, fired by a Pakistani F-16, as evidence. But that, by itself, does not offer any clues on whether Abhinandan Varthaman had shot down a Pakistan Air Force F-16.


NEW DELHI:
India's assertion that its fighter pilot shot down a Pakistani F-16 fighter jet in a dogfight in February may not be correct, American news publication Foreign Policy has claimed in a report quoting unnamed US defense officials. "Two senior US defense officials with direct knowledge of the situation told Foreign Policy that U.S. personnel recently counted Islamabad's F-16s and found none missing," the publication says in a report published on Thursday.
The government had said that in an aerial duel on February 27 - a day after India sent fighter jets to Pakistan's Balakot to strike a terror training camp - Indian Air Force pilot Abhinandan Varthaman had engaged with one of the Pakistani fighter jets that tried to target Indian military facilities and shot it down before he was hit and forced to eject. Abhinandan Varthaman landed across the Line of Control and was in Pakistani custody for three days before he was returned to India amid attempts to de-escalate the crisis between the two sides.

The Indian Air Force had on February 28 displayed pieces of the AMRAAM missile, fired by a Pakistani F-16, as evidence. But that, by itself, does not offer any clues on whether Abhinandan Varthaman had shot down a Pakistan Air Force F-16, as has been repeatedly claimed by the government and the IAF.

According to the Foreign Policy magazine, Pakistan invited the United States to physically count its F-16 planes after the incident as part of an end-user agreement signed when the foreign military sale was finalized.

"A US count of Pakistan's F-16 fleet has found that all the jets are present and accounted for, a direct contradiction to India's claim that it shot down one of the fighter jets during a February clash," Lara Seligman of the magazine reports.

The count has been completed, and "all aircraft were present and accounted for", an unnamed official is quoted as saying.

"It is possible that in the heat of combat, Varthaman, flying a vintage MiG-21 Bison, got a lock on the Pakistani F-16, fired, and genuinely believed he scored a hit. But the count, conducted by U.S. authorities on the ground in Pakistan, sheds doubt on New Delhi's version of events, suggesting that Indian authorities may have misled the international community about what happened that day," says Foreign Policy.

The report comes days before voting starts for the April-May national election. Prime Minister Narendra Modi and other top BJP leaders have been accused by the opposition of using the Balakot air strike, which was in response to the February 14 Pulwama terror attack, in their campaign speeches.

In an interview to India Today, the Defence Minister, Nirmala Sitharaman had said: ''We are definitely saying that an F-16 was knocked out by us and initially, the Pakistan Prime Minister claimed that two pilots were with them. One of the pilots was ours and returned as per the norms. Who is the other pilot?''
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Old 5th April 2019, 20:19   #548
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Quote:
Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
The quoted article could be a planted one as it claims to be quoting "Unnamed" and probably non-existent US officials.
The basis of the news report is this report from Foreign Policy magazine: https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04...count-says-no/

Subsequently have found some reports saying that IAF has radio proof.
What can not returning to base signify?

Source: https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/...ates-5th-april
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Old 5th April 2019, 20:29   #549
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

IAF's response:
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/pak-...report-2018648

Quote:
In a statement, the Air Force said: "The Indian Forces have confirmed sighting ejections at two different places on that day. The two sightings were at places separated by at least 8-10 km. One was an IAF MiG 21 Bison and other a PAF aircraft. Electronic signatures gathered by us indicate that the PAF aircraft was a F-16."

The Air Force said radio intercepts proved that two pilots had ejected, not just one. Journalists were shown the radar tracks of the air battle that took place across the LoC near Jhangar, which lies between Rajouri and Nowshera.

The radar tracks recorded by airborne warning and control aircraft show the presence of an F-16 aircraft in the vicinity of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman's MiG-21 Bison. In the very next frame of the AWACS picture, eight seconds later, the symbol for the PAF F-16 aircraft is missing indicating what IAF sources say is a shootdown of the jet. IAF controllers monitoring the air battle on the AWACS aircraft were also monitoring the radio communication between pilots in the Pakistan F-16 formation. They say communication from one F-16 aircraft abruptly ended which they believe is further confirmation that one Pakistan Air Force jet did not return. However, journalists were not showcased a recording of the audio communication that was taking place on security grounds.
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Old 5th April 2019, 20:35   #550
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

The Americans are trying to sell us 120 latest block F16s, what else can be expected from them? Admitting the loss will be bad publicity.
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Old 5th April 2019, 20:56   #551
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
The basis of the news report is this report from Foreign Policy magazine: https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04...count-says-no/

Subsequently have found some reports saying that IAF has radio proof.
What can not returning to base signify?

Source: https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/...ates-5th-april
Having read and observed the US media for 4 decades now on this subject I would not bend backwards to believe this. It is in the interests of the all powerful military-industry complex of USA to show one of its 'star' products in good light. An F-16 whose reputation was carefully nurtured over 40 years as a superlative aircraft (which incidentally it is) getting shot down by a modernized MiG-21 is a hard pill to swallow. The author with the most expensive pen does not write the best books and the driver with the most powerful car does not always win the race - similarly in this dog fight.

The US doing a count raises two questions - why the anxiety to do a count of aircraft they sold to their ally 25 to 30 years ago. And what are they counting - F-16s from USA or also F-16s bought second hand from Jordon etc. And why on earth do we assume that a US journal spouts the truth while our own IAF does not. There are very powerful commercial interests of Lockheed at stake here counted in billions of $. Both US and Pakistan have a vested interest to disprove that an F-16 got shot down. For one it is $$$ and for the other its testosterone count. And Lockheed has a reputation for bribing its way big time into contracts (F-104, Tristar airliner & Japan etc). And US military journals work very closely, often though not always, with the US Govt and OEMs.

US media on military matters, with some notable exceptions, follows the hymn book of their Govt -
- Gulf of Tonkin incident, 1964, which was used as a fabricated pretext to escalate the war in Vietnam to a full fledged one;
- the truth about US B-52 bombings in Vietnam in 1972 (Linebacker operation) which they claimed was not happening even as they were dropping more bombs on little Vietnam than were dropped in the whole world in WW-2;
- the alleged WMDs in Iraq which did not exist and was used as an excuse to conquer Iraq in 2003 and lay it waste;
- shooting down Iran Air flight 655 in 1988 where one of the latest US Navy guided missile warships shot down an Iran Air airliner flying innocently to Dubai on a scheduled flight. Times, Newsweek, Washington Post and New York Times framed evidence and fabricated logical explanations to explain what happened and how it was not the fault of their super sophisticated warship whose radars allegedly could not distinguish between an airliner flying slow and high versus a combat fighter coming in low and fast;
- the truth about Diego Garcia - read about the displacement of citizens on the net;
- the falsehoods on the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter (the F-16 of the 1960s) and its safety record and the hundreds of young pilots of European nations who were killed flying it. Read about the bribes paid to the European nations to lure them to buy this unsafe fighter.
- the false hoods of the ' missile gap' versus the USSR in the late 1950s that was used as a justification for ever greater defence budgets.

I could list several more. They just added one here.

We Indians should be confident enough as individuals and as a nation to treat such articles with the disdain they deserve. The evidence the IAF laid out is for all to read on the net. Sadly sections of our press are waiting to lap up these articles without doing their homework.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 5th April 2019 at 21:05.
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Old 5th April 2019, 21:07   #552
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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Admitting the loss will be bad publicity.
Not necessarily. When a Hellenic(Greek) Air Force Mirage 2000 fired an R550 Magic II and shot down a Turkish Air Force F-16D over the Aegean Sea after an airspace violation incident, that loss was openly admitted(The Turkish pilot was killed, his back seater survived and was rescued by the Hellenic Navy). Similarly a manuevering kill was awarded to a Greek Mirage F1 pilot when a Turkish F-16, after engaging in a brief dogfight with the Mirage F1, crashed. Remember both these opposing Air Forces that have a long history of aerial skirmishes and operate similar variants of the F-16, including Block 52 F-16C/Ds equipped with CFTs.

So while chances of the F-21 or F-18 winning the IAF competition are slim, the reason that PAF operates F-16s or it getting shot down by a MiG-21 certainly should not be a limiting factor in making that decision. Each fighter in the competition has its strengths and weaknesses and the decision on buying a fighter is made on which one suits the Air Force's requirements best. To think that - oh the US supports Pakistan on the F-16 downing, so we should kick out F-16s and F-18s from the competition, is not only naive but stupid as well!!! Here the onus was on the Indian govt and/or the IAF to prove that F-16 was indeed downed, the US and Pakis were doing everything to hide it. So it was good to see the IAF coming out quickly to rebuke that article.

Last edited by skanchan95 : 5th April 2019 at 21:15.
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Old 5th April 2019, 21:28   #553
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Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
Here the onus was on the Indian govt and/or the IAF to prove that F-16 was indeed downed, the US and Pakis were doing everything to hide it. So it was good to see the IAF coming out quickly to rebuke that article.
Once IAF makes a particular claim, it is their job to provide evidence to the Government. And that's about it. IAF does NOT need to provide any evidence to either media or civilians. Now coming to the Government, yeah, they could provide those audio tapes or "radar tracks" by airborne early warning aircraft to prove that F16 was indeed shot down. But then, the discourse could get very juvenile.

Nothing stops an unknown "strategy journal" from coming out with an investigative piece to prove that the audio tapes were actually made at a Mumbai sound recording studio. Or that the "radar tracks" (whatever that means) evidence was actually CGI hurriedly made at Mumbai Film City!

Last edited by SmartCat : 5th April 2019 at 21:30.
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Old 5th April 2019, 21:41   #554
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Now coming to the Government, yeah, they could provide those audio tapes or "radar tracks" by airborne early warning aircraft to prove that F16 was indeed shot down.
Well, the IAF just released some information. Quoting Vishnu Som's tweets:

Quote:
1. In a briefing lasting more than an hour, senior IAF officers briefed journalists on why they insist Wing Commander Abhinandan shot down an F-16. I was there.

2. We were showcased radar tracks from IAF Phalcon aircraft. There were 2 frames we were shown. 1 had symbology of Abhi's MiG, close to a Pak F-16.

3. In the next frame, just 8 seconds later on the timeline, the track (symbol) depicting the F-16 is missing. The IAF says it was shot down.

4. Simultaneously, the IAF was monitoring the tactical communications between the PAF formation. The communications of one of these F-16s abruptly ended indicating a shoot down says the IAF.

5. The engagement took place far West (I dont know the distance) of the LoC, opposite Jhangar which lies between Rajouri and Nowshera.

6. There was a gap of about 6 kms between the parachutes of Abhi and the Pak pilot shot down.

7. The IAF concludes there was a second pilot who parachuted and was taken to a Pak military hospital.

8. There was another aircraft which crashed which wasn't a MiG-21.

9. Electronic signals and AWACS intercepts indicate and F-16 was in the area.

Last edited by skanchan95 : 5th April 2019 at 21:45.
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Old 5th April 2019, 22:18   #555
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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post

We Indians should be confident enough as individuals and as a nation to treat such articles with the disdain they deserve. The evidence the IAF laid out is for all to read on the net. Sadly sections of our press are waiting to lap up these articles without doing their homework.

I think sir you misunderstood the post. You have gone on a tangent, I fear.
Its not just the media in US, but also in India and I think across the world that is now unethical - and as a reader this effects one's mental constructs. I am quite conscious of it and for this reason I won't read newspapers, magazine (especially dealing with finance, economics)etc. This is also to keep me as unbiased as possible to enable me to do my job - invest money. Having said that, whenever I do, I would read any opinion with a detached frame of mind and would dig in a bit deeper to atleast get as close, to a range of facts, as I can. Its for this reason I dug up the original Foreign Policy report after reading skanchan95's post and for the same reason I wanted to ask what is the meaning of 'not returning to base'? It most likely means, just that the fighter plane was brought down, but could it mean more - was my question?

Last edited by rrsteer : 5th April 2019 at 22:19.
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