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Old 31st July 2019, 11:28   #646
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by arijitkanrar View Post
Found this article on the Print.
.........
Would love to hear from knowledgeable people in the group.
.........

This article looks like the author doesn't know what he is talking about. First he says that the IAF wants to avoid a dogfight against the F-16 and then later says that IAF is convinced that dogfights are the way to go.

What do others feel about this?
I'm not knowledgeable or anything, but I found the same contradiction hilarious - the IAF (supposedly) wants to avoid dogfighting the F-16, but wants to dogfight against it? That was a dead giveaway that the author was shooting blanks. If we come to think about it, Lockheed Martin have to have spent loads of money on PR to create a sort of buzz around selling the F-16/F-21 to India. This author's pockets may have been lined in the past and maybe he's bemoaning the shut door now that Lockheed Martin will never sell it to India at this point.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:17   #647
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

What a joke! Such articles prove time and again that there are so many Arm chair "experts" and Armchair "Fighter pilots".

- The network centric warfare was introduced as early as 2000's and the IAF has been constantly upgrading its equipments to be able to talk to each other, always and everywhere, even to the extent of while being in complete radio silence.

- There are several examples of "antique" IAF equipment giving the "superior" american equipment, a run for its money. Red flag exercises and 1961 wars are a few real life examples.

- As a matter of fact, F16 (ignoring the upgrades) is also a design from the previous decade. If one really needs the most modern toys, should look for F22/F35/J20/PAK-FA or build their own 5+ gen fighter.

Moral of the story, do not believe everything one finds in the internet.
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Old 31st July 2019, 14:29   #648
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

This was an absolute treat to watch. Its a late 1980s documentary on the Mirage 2000 in Indian service , shortly after their induction in the IAF. Inspite of the low resolution, it is fascinating to watch. One can see even see a mission briefing by W/C(then S/L) Ramesh 'Joe' Bakshi. who lost his life in a Mirage 2000 crash in 1989. Then there are snippets by then W/C Bhavnani, G/C S Krishnaswamy, A/C Denzil Keelor among others.


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Old 31st July 2019, 22:37   #649
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by arijitkanrar View Post
Found this article on the Print.

F-16 never stood a chance to be in IAF fleet. Lockheed Martin messed it up so much

Would love to hear from knowledgeable people in the group.
Personally I feel the Rafael was chosen due to familiarity with Dassault equipment and being a really good fighter vs unknown territory of US equipment and more involved infrastructure required to support US planes.This article looks like the author doesn't know what he is talking about. First he says that the IAF wants to avoid a dogfight against the F-16 and then later says that IAF is convinced that dogfights are the way to go.

What do others feel about this?
Print is a newsline I read to know what the 'others' are talking of. The publication while delivering genuine insights occasionally allows itself to be a platform for paid news. Never understood why an astute man like Shekhar Gupta lets his online news magazine publish articles that are not even worth my spit. This article is as lacking in facts as a typical speech by Donald Trump.

All leading Air Forces are network centric these days. The trend started in the IAF sometime in the 1990s. The USAF is undoubtedly the most network centric; the IAF is not quite in that league but good enough for the adversaries we face. Can we get better - yes we can and should. We were well behind the curve till 1991 when Gulf War - I opened our eyes.

AMRAAM's and other BVRs are not God's answer to interception. A BVR brings with it the added question mark of being doubly doubly sure that those two blips 30 or 50 kms out are actually bandits and not an airliner. IFF works but only up to a point. IFF after all also depends on avionics and electromagnetic waves and is vulnerable to jamming, deception, weather conditions etc. No IFF is fool proof. A BVR missile is but one component of a fighter's armoury which in turn is but one component of air defence, which in turn is but one component of ...... Get the drift. Journalists like this chump who over blow the importance of one sub-system have played too many video games. As I said the article isn't worth my spit.

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Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
This was an absolute treat to watch. Its a late 1980s documentary on the Mirage 2000 in Indian service , shortly after their induction in the IAF.
+1, +1, +1.

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Old 31st July 2019, 23:12   #650
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

While reading up on China and Taiwan issues, I somehow ended up on Taiwanese Air Force wiki page. Taiwan has 130 of these home grown twin engine fighter aircraft -

It is actually called "F-CK Ching" (yeah, sounds like that famous adjective)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDC_F-CK-1_Ching-kuo

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Taiwan initiated the IDF program when the United States refused to sell F-20 Tigershark and F-16 Fighting Falcon jet fighters following diplomatic pressure from China. Taiwan therefore decided to develop an advanced indigenous jet fighter. The Aerospace Industrial Development Corporation (AIDC), based in Taichung, Taiwan, designed and built the IDF jet fighter.

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Old 1st August 2019, 10:08   #651
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

For a long time I've wanted to share these videos about the IAF Hunters' role in the Battle of Longewala with this forum:
Hunters At Dawn - The Air Battle of Longewala (Part 1/2) -
Hunters At Dawn - The Air Battle of Longewala (Part 2/2) -

These were uploaded by Shiv Aroor (the name sounds very familiar in Indian defence matters).

This movie just gives me goosebumps - such as when the moustachioed gentleman officer (retired) explains how he took of from his base before dawn and had to follow a road by visual means in order to get to the border region, because the Hunters lacked night-time navigation means.

You also feel the palpable fear this gentleman felt after hitting a Tank and wondering if he had just hit an Indian Army tank or not!

All in all - in no small part due to the wonderful background tune - this is an uplifting short film. I recommend you to watch it in its entirety. Enjoy!
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Old 1st August 2019, 12:54   #652
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by locusjag View Post
For a long time I've wanted to share these videos about the IAF Hunters' role in the Battle of Longewala with this forum:
Hunters At Dawn - The Air Battle of Longewala (Part 1/2) -
Hunters At Dawn - The Air Battle of Longewala (Part 2/2) -
Thanks for sharing the videos.

There's a book titled "Fatal Embrace" by Air Marshal M S "Minhi" Bawa on the same subject. Not many know that then Wg Cdr Bawa was the CO of IAF's first Su-7 Sqdn - No. 26 Sqdn "Warriors" before being posted to Jamnagar as the base's Chief Instructor pilot an from there he was tasked with commanding Jaisalmer forward air base during the 1971 war.

An excellent read and account about the operations carried out by the Hunter Sqdn from Jaisalmer from the Base Commander's point of view. Pics of destroyed Pakistani tanks, APC and some pics from Air Marshal Bawa's tenure in the IAF makes this book an important addition to the literature available on the IAF.

Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force-20190801_112928.jpg

Then Wg Cdr Bawa commanded and literally brought the Jaisalmer airbase to full operational readiness.

The Air Battle of Longewala will go down in the annals of air warfare as a monumental event. The Hunter OCU(Operational Conversion Unit) made a name for itself in the Longewala battle where it operated under the name of 122 Ad-Hoc Squadron from Jaisalmer. A small force of just 4 Hunters (later by re-inforced by 10 additional Hunters) humbled an entire regiment of T-59 & Shermans tanks, APCs, Infantry and a Brigade of Artillery and left these charred and smouldering in the scorching sands of the Thar desert, aptly called "Marusthali"(Place of Death). The fight of four Hunters flew 35 sorties in two days.

It was also found that the 30 mm High Explosive Incendiary bullets caused more damage to the Pakistani tanks than the T10 rockets fired by the Hunters. As the T-59 tanks carried extra barrel of fuel on top of the tanks and was exposed to cannon fire, the tanks would light up quite easily.

During the 1971 War, 122 Sqdn flew a total of 256 sorties and apart from Longewala, also carried out interdiction strikes against rail stations and counter air strikes against airfields and radar stations.

Last edited by skanchan95 : 1st August 2019 at 13:01.
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Old 1st August 2019, 13:50   #653
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by SmartCat View Post
While reading up on China and Taiwan issues, I somehow ended up on Taiwanese Air Force wiki page. Taiwan has 130 of these home grown twin engine fighter aircraft..]
The sad reality as we move into what looks like the final generation of manned combat aircraft, let's stick with 5th Gen, is that increasingly it becomes untenable for all but the biggest nations, backed by MIC (military industrial complex) behemoths to develop platforms. I mean one only need look at the ever decreasing number of platforms as we moved from 3rd to 4th and now 5th gen. The only truly operational 5th gen aircraft out there right now are the F22, F35 and J20 (the Su57 I'm not counting yet because let's be honest, they barely did a photoshoot in Syria and the paltry few platforms they have were used to escort Putin - again for a photoshoot..). I seriously think the move to UAVs is what might bring back the diversity of platforms moving forward. I think a lot of nations have realised that for a number of reasons, stealthy, armed and to large extents autonomous UAVs present a rather attractive future proposition for their air warfare needs. Still it won't be easy.

As a counterpoint I really like the argument that fans of the A10 and the developers of the curious (and privately funded) Textron Airland Scorpion (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textron_AirLand_Scorpion) that is:
the vast majority of missions are often low and slow, duking it out with insurgents at ground level or often simply patrolling. You don't need a bleeding edge $50k-per-flight-hour platform to complete said missions. Therein lays a market for diverse and much more simple platforms within reach of a far greater range of military forces. (Yes, at this point I should mention the Scorpion has had no sales luck as yet). And for peer state conflict, the MIC will always push for the big ticket jets.

Anyway, I'll use this opportunity to bemoan once more the lack of Tejas' that should've arrived yesterday
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Old 1st August 2019, 13:59   #654
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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As a counterpoint I really like the argument that fans of the A10 and the developers of the curious (and privately funded) Textron Airland Scorpion that is: the vast majority of missions are often low and slow, duking it out with insurgents at ground level or often simply patrolling. You don't need a bleeding edge $50k-per-flight-hour platform to complete said missions. Therein lays a market for diverse and much more simple platforms within reach of a far greater range of military forces. (Yes, at this point I should mention the Scorpion has had no sales luck as yet).
Interesting. Had not heard about Cessna Scorpion till now. Looks like it is still under development (hence no sales). The most famous counter insurgency light attack aircraft is the Embraer Super Tucano
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrae...4_Super_Tucano

Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force-mldpptb16vgz.jpg

USAF owns 100+ Super Tucanos.
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Old 1st August 2019, 14:50   #655
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
There's a book titled "Fatal Embrace" by Air Marshal M S "Minhi" Bawa on the same subject.
I went back into the videos and checked - sure enough, the Punjabi gentleman donning a turban in it is Air Marshal Bawa. Good to know of his book! I'll look to buy it.
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Old 1st August 2019, 15:28   #656
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

I love the hunter. One of the prettiest jet fighters ever. The Dutch air force used them. There are still some airworthy Hunters around. Mostly in private hands. Would love to fly one. I seem to recall that the trainer version, which sat two pilots side by side, rather than behind one another, was slightly faster than the regular model. (The slightly larger (diameter) cockpit created less aerodynamic drag or so I recall. (But maybe I am mixing up my jet fighters here. Hunter trainer definitely side by side pilots though!)

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Old 1st August 2019, 17:56   #657
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by locusjag View Post
I went back into the videos and checked - sure enough, the Punjabi gentleman donning a turban in it is Air Marshal Bawa. Good to know of his book! I'll look to buy it.
Its an old book and may not be available now.

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
The Dutch air force used them.
Some ex-RNLAF/BAF Hunters (F.Mk.4/F.Mk.6/T.Mk.7) ended up in IAF service after ex-Dutch, Fokker & Sabca built fighter and Hawker built trainer Hunter variants were returned/sold back to Hawker by Netherlands(& Belgium).

Some of these ex-Dutch/Belgian single seat F.Mk.4, F.Mk.6 & dual seat T.Mk.7 Hunters were bought upto RAF Hunter FGA.Mk.9 & T.Mk.66 standards by Hawker and sold to the IAF as F.Mk.56A(single seat fighters) & T.Mk.66D(dual seat trainers) after the 1965 Indo-Pak war. Additional ex-RAF FGA.Mk.9s were sold to the IAF as well to make up for attrition losses. Some of the Hunter F.Mk.56As that the IAF lost in the 1971 war may well have been ex-RNLAF/BAF examples.

Last edited by skanchan95 : 1st August 2019 at 18:03.
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Old 1st August 2019, 18:02   #658
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Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
ISome ex-RNLAF Hunters (F.Mk.4/F.Mk.6/T.Mk.7) ended up in IAF service after ex-Dutch, Fokker built fighter and Hawker built trainer Hunter variants were returned/sold back to Hawker by Netherlands(& Belgium).
Thanks, I had no idea.

There is still one Hunter left in the Dutch armed forces museum in the Netherlands:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/inter...ml#post3672451 (Pics: The Dutch National Army Museum)

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Old 1st August 2019, 18:08   #659
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Interesting. Had not heard about Cessna Scorpion till now. Looks like it is still under development (hence no sales). The most famous counter insurgency light attack aircraft is the Embraer Super Tucano...
Oh I quite like the Super Tucano. It's come up a lot time and again in the USAF multiple aborted and then restarted attempts at a light aircraft tender. I mean considering most of the down and dirty work of CAS in the Mid East, there's a massive use case for it, and it makes sense for a lot of air forces too like the Afghans or others who have rather simplistic and specific use cases. The Mexicans for example could primarily use it in counter narcotics operations. India for example could end up needing a few for anti Naxal operations for example.

I hadn't quite realised that Cessna were involved in the Scorpion. It's been doing the rounds for at least 5 years that I know of now, and I don't think there's been any notable deals for the jet. I mean the premise is excellent - entirely privately funded light tactical platform, uses off the shelf parts to save costs, twin engine for redundancy, unswept wings for good low speed handling, and most importantly it's actually out there in production form. Yet no buyers! I feel it might go the way of the F-20 Tigershark it seems.
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Old 1st August 2019, 18:16   #660
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Thanks, I had no idea.

There is still one Hunter left in the Dutch armed forces museum in the Netherlands:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/inter...ml#post3672451 (Pics: The Dutch National Army Museum)

Jeroen
Its a Hunter F.4 variant as it lacks the Hunter F.6(and later models) leading edge dogtooth extension on the outboard portion of the wing.

EDIT: just re-checked the PC flight sim - Strike Fighters 2 Hunter F.Mk.56A mod that I was a part of. Atleast one Hunter F.MK.56A lost in the 71 war ex-RNLAF:
Hunter F.Mk.56A A-1014 (ex-RNLAF Hunter N-213) flown by No. 20 Sqdn's S/L J M Mistry was shot down by a PAF Mirage IIIEP in the 1971 war.

While one has been preserved:
Hunter F.Mk.56A A-1012 (ex-RNLAF Hunter N-274) is preserved at office of the Director General of the National Cadet Corps, Delhi

Last edited by skanchan95 : 1st August 2019 at 18:27.
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