[neel385]

Excellent thread Smartcat and long due.
Having a little experiance in the field being discussed, I'll take the liberty to make a few corrections.

Originally Posted by smartcat

MIKOYAN MIG-27

- Mikoyan Mig-27 is a single-engine fighter bomber developed in the 1980's. It is the ground attack variant of Mig-23 fighter aircraft.

The MiG 27 (the G is in capitals always!) is a derivative of the MiG 23 ground attack variant. The 23 was initially designed as a supersonic interceptor and the IAF initially operated the MiG 23 MF which incidentally was probably the first aircraft in the world with a BVR capability. The MiG 23 BN was the ground attack variant that we then procured. The MiG 27 was a upgrade of the BN wherein the power plant and avionics got a major upgrade along with certain airframe mods, the shortening of the nose wheel assembly being the most prominent. In fact the variant of the MiG 27 that we fly is the MiG 27 ML where ML stands for Modified Electronics!

Originally Posted by smartcat

DASSAULT MIRAGE 2000

- Looking at overall strengths and weaknesses of each IAF fighter aircraft, it's very likely that Mirage 2000 will be primarily used for ground attack, SEAD missions (attacks on enemy airbases, SAM sites, fixed radars, communication centers etc) and nuclear strikes.

The M 2000 like the MKI is a true multi role aircraft and is capable of carrying out missions across the entire spectrum of air operations. It will probably be utilised in the role best suited in the particular phase of the conflict.

Originally Posted by smartcat

During Kargil War, the Mirage 2000 was the fighter jet that destroyed supply lines of enemy with Israeli supplied PGMs (precision guided munitions) - flying into the battlefield at 40,000 feet to avoid hand-held Stingers.

The IAF does not hold any Israeli PGM. Was was used was the Litening LDP (Laser Designation Pod) of Israeli origin which was used to direct the PGMs.

Originally Posted by smartcat

MICA missile in an "electronically silent" missile. When the radar homing seeker locks onto the enemy aircraft, RWR (radar warning receiver) of enemy aircraft will not warn it's pilot about the incoming MICA missile.

No active missile can be "silent". Where it can be missed is when the RWR of the adversary cannot pick up the transmissions of the active seeker.

Originally Posted by smartcat

MIKOYAN MIG-21

Inexperienced North Vietnamese with their Mig 21s took out around 100 American fighters for loss of only 50 in air-to-air combat. Mig 21s would dodge the missiles thanks to its agility, get close to American jets and blow it out of the sky.

The Americans started with a kill ratio of 1:2 in the initial phases of the war. However, the M 21s were flown (asmost exclusively) by the best Russian pilots. The losses were basically due to overconfidence, which the Americans usually are susceptible to, and poor tactics as a result. However, by the end of the war, the kill ratio stood close to 5:1.

Originally Posted by smartcat

In Kargil war, ...Two Mig 21's were shot down by shoulder-fired stingers.

One was shot down.

Originally Posted by smartcat

SUKHOI SU-30MKI

Su-30 MKI gets aerodynamic aids in the form of canards and 3D thrust vectoring, and makes it a 'supermaneuverable' (aeronautical term) aircraft. It is the ability of the fighter aircraft to move in an unpredictable flight path.

- However, pretty much every Western pilot or defence analyst feels fighter aircraft manoeuvres that bleeds speed and makes aircraft nearly stationary (like Pugachev's Cobra) is suicidal in real-life combat situations. Because as soon as the attacking aircraft sees a near stationary Su-30 MKI ahead, he is likely to pull up hard, get back down and take out the aircraft from top. Something like this -

Attachment 1591628

Supermaneuverability deals with the ability to have control of the aircraft beyond the stalling angle of attack and has no real connection with unpredictability in manoeuvring. As far as the MKI is concerned, a mixture of the tri-plane control surface arrangement and TVC gives it this ability.

As far as the Western analysis is concerned, one needs to take it with a pinch of salt. As to why is a rather lengthy discussion on the basics of air to air combat, its evolution and finally the current scenario in the realm of modern air to air combat which we shall leave for later maybe?

Originally Posted by adneo

While the Sukhoi became famous due to the Pugachev Cobra and the Kulbit maneuvers , those were possible even without vectored thrust just like in the SU 27,

The Kulbiot was never possible in a non-TVC fighter.

Originally Posted by adneo

One thing which i observed , and since i know there are many pilots and people from HAL in the forum, probably they can pitch in if they are allowed to (some maneuverability details like sustained rated of turn etc are military secrets ), while the SU 30 MKI loses altitude/gets unsettled from their flight axis while performing the mid air spin U-turn since its engine nozzle is pointed either upwards or downwards while in the extreme point of the outwardly circular curve, real 3D thrust vectoring aircraft can perform it without getting much unsettled from their flight plane as the thrust vector can be in the same plane which makes the aircraft's tail slide around.

Not true as the play is between the Lift Vector and the flight path and impact the the thrust vector has on the two.

Originally Posted by hgps

Its impossible to abort takeoff and land again once V1 speed is achieved. That aircraft had already crossed V2 speed and was already off the ground. Runways are not long enough to touchdown again.

Not true for fighters as there are something called "Arrester Barriers" which help them stop.

Enough for now. Will probably get back!

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by neel385

The MiG 27 (the G is in capitals always!)

G for Gurevich, yeah!

As far as the Western analysis is concerned, one needs to take it with a pinch of salt.

Here is that infamous video of USAF pilot blasting Su-30 MKI performance after 2008 Red Flag exercises.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKEa-R37PeU

As to why is a rather lengthy discussion on the basics of air to air combat, its evolution and finally the current scenario in the realm of modern air to air combat which we shall leave for later maybe?

Looking forward to any insights you might have about IAF's BVR/WVR doctrine.

[neel385]

The said video is by a retired USAF official who was an observer in the first Red Flag that the IAF participated in and is not the official view of the USAF. In fact the USAF was quick to distance itself from the said views one this video surfaced.

The response of the USAF to the first joint exercise in India will be an interesting read for all!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cope_India

Note: Do go through the references in greater detail!

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by neel385

The said video is by a retired USAF official who was an observer in the first Red Flag that the IAF participated in and is not the official view of the USAF. In fact the USAF was quick to distance itself from the said views one this video surfaced.

And he was playing to the gallery too. The audience was vietnam war vets. So some jibes and exaggerations are OK.

The response of the USAF to the first joint exercise in India will be an interesting read for all!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cope_India
Note: Do go through the references in greater detail!

wow, we have a Wiki stub on Cope India too? All the important references are dead though.

In 2004, India had Su-30 MK (not MKI yet) and Mig 21 Bison, which took on F15s with 3 to 1 odds (3 times more Indian planes than USAF planes). The 9:1 kill ratio in WVR combat is still interesting considering that these are F15s we are talking about.

Now Chinese Air Force strategy of deploying a large number of average capability/technology aircraft makes sense to me. Nobody is sure about their combat tactics capabilities though.

[Patriot_Vishwas]

Originally Posted by neel385

The IAF does not hold any Israeli PGM. What was used was the Litening LDP (Laser Designation Pod) of Israeli origin which was used to direct the PGMs.

Griffin LGB carried on the Tejas.
I also think that the Spice family of smart munitions are available with the VayuSena.

The contracts in question include the sale of 164 Litening-4 navigating and targeting pods, produced by Israel’s Rafael Advanced Defense Systems. These provide “precision strike capability to every fighter aircraft,” according to the manufacturer’s website. In addition, India is set to purchase 250 advanced Spice precision stand-off bombs, capable of an enemy’s fortified underground command centers.

https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/6...3pjzB3D63Xk.97

[neel385]

If the kit is in question then yes! However, it is only a kit that concerts an Iron Bomb to a PGM.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by neel385

The 23 was initially designed as a supersonic interceptor and the IAF initially operated the MiG 23 MF which incidentally was probably the first aircraft in the world with a BVR capability.

In 1954, the F3D Demon was the first jet aircraft to be fitted with an operational air-to-air missile: the Sparrow I,an all weather day/night BVR missile that used beam riding guidance for the aircrew to control the missile's track.However the missile lacked true BVR capability and in the early 1960s, the F-4 Phantom II became the first fighter in the world to have "true" BVR capability with the introduction of AIM-7 Sparrow II & Sparrow III missiles.

Even the Russian R-3R SARH missile that the MiG-21 was armed with lacked true BVR capability. The MiG-23 joined Russian service from 1970 onwards and its primary BVR missile -the R-23R (AA-7) entered service much later in 1974.

Originally Posted by neel385

The MiG 27 (the G is in capitals always!) is a derivative of the MiG 23 ground attack variant. The 23 was initially designed as a supersonic interceptor and the IAF initially operated the MiG 23 MF which incidentally was probably the first aircraft in the world with a BVR capability. The MiG 23 BN was the ground attack variant that we then procured. The MiG 27 was a upgrade of the BN wherein the power plant and avionics got a major upgrade along with certain airframe mods, the shortening of the nose wheel assembly being the most prominent. In fact the variant of the MiG 27 that we fly is the MiG 27 ML where ML stands for Modified Electronics!

If I may add some more details, the MiG-23BN was practically a MiG-23MF with a different nose and no radar. The MiG-23BN featured a "duckbill" nose compared to the MiG-23MFs conventional fighter nose cone. By design, the MiG-23MF was designed to be a high speed, high altitude interceptor. After some time Russians realized that the certain features of the high-altitude MiG-23 were not suitable for a low-level tactical bomber that the MiG-23BN was intended to be.

In the MiG-27, the airframe was greatly strengthened and the engine thrust improved(R-29B-300 engine on the MiG-27). The variable intakes of MiG-23 were evaluated to be unnecessary, because there was no requirement for M2.3 max speed as with interceptor versions, especially considering the weight penalty. That is why the MiG-27 saves weight by having simple fixed intakes which only allows the bird to achieve M1.6 despite greater thrust. Twin-barrel GSh-23 cannon was also evaluated as too weak and replaced by 30mm 6-barrel cannon, a weapon that in many aspects is similar to GAU-8/A Avenger of the Fairchild A-10A Thunderbolt II, somewhat less powerful but also much lighter and with greater firing rate.

The MiG-27 variants are/were only found within air forces of Russia, India, Sri Lanka, Kazakhstan, Ukraine and some other ex-CIS countries. The MiG-27 was not bought by Warsaw pact and Arab countries, all of them used MiG-23BNs. The Iraqis had a customized MiG-23BN variant with a fixed IFR probe.

The easily recognizable differences between the ground attack Floggers of the Indian AF are shown below - the first one being MiG-27M and the second one MiG-23BN.

1) Note the intake splinters, as well as small LERX on MiG-27 (not clearly visible). The MiG-27 has the GSh-30-6 cannon, whereas the MiG-23BN is armed with the twin-barrelled GSh-23L cannon


2) The MiG-27 has two nose probes, whereas the MiG-23BN had only one.The MiG-27 nose looked slightly different than the MiG-23BNs. The primitive system was replaced with the Klen-PM Laser Range Marker & Target Seeker.


3) The stance when on the ground. The MiG-23BN sits on the gear with a distinctive nose-up stance, and in the MiG-27(and MiG-23ML/MLD fighter variants), the gear was altered to give the airframe a more level stance. Also, the tyres were on the MiG-27 made wider and heavier.


4) Serial numbers. The MiG-23BN had SM-XXX series whereas the MiG-27s have TS-XXX and TU-XXX series (upgraded airframes).

Originally Posted by Patriot_Vishwas

Griffin LGB carried on the Tejas.

Griffin is an add-on kit which is used to retrofit existing unguided/dumb gravity bombs, making them into laser-guided smart bombs (with the option of GPS guidance). Below diagram shows the American Paveway LGB. The Paveway kit converts dumb Mk.82,83 & 84 series bombs into Laser Guided Bombs and get named GBU-12/16/10 (GBU=Guided Bomb Unit).

[Dieseltuned]

Originally Posted by Patriot_Vishwas

That's the most mean avatar of the Tejas, I have seen till date. Can't wait for these guys to be fully operational in sizeable number with the IAF.

Will be a very proud moment for the nation.

Regards
Dieseltuned

[karan561]

Hi Smartcat,

Very interesting information & pictures indeed

Thank You for making this thread

[SmartCat]

I'm hearing this for the first time - Mig 21's were used for "night strike missions" during Kargil War?

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-f...ome-topstories

the IAF Chief has flown the same type of aircraft during Kargil Operations, in which he carried out many night strike missions in the mountainous terrain. Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa was awarded Yudh Sewa Medal for this.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by smartcat

I'm hearing this for the first time - Mig 21's were used for "night strike missions" during Kargil War?

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-f...ome-topstories

Yes it is true that the MiG-21s carried out night strike missions.

Air Chief Marshal B S Dhanoa was a Wing Commander during the 1999 war. He was the CO of No.17 Sqdn "Golden Arrows" flying the HAL built Type 96 MiG-21Ms. No. 17 Sqdn initially flew fighter reconaissance missions in the war (not sure if the IAF MiG-21s carried a recon pod for the same). 17 Sqdn's MiG-21s were among the first IAF fighters in the air after air operations commenced on May 21, 1999.

As per records, it was only after the squadron lost Sqdn Ldr Ajay Ahuja to the coward Pakistanis that the squadron was inducted in the bombing role(May 27, 1999 - on a fighter recon mission and diverted to locate the downed MiG-27 pilot Flt Lt Nachiketa).

After the war was over, No. 17 Squadron were the most decorated squadron in Kargil operations with 1 Vir Chakra (Posthumous), 1 Yudh Seva Medal, 2 Vayu Sena Medals and 2 Mention-in-Despatches.

Originally Posted by smartcat

Shenyang J-8: 100 (built in 1970s, high speed interceptor aircraft for air defence, equivalent to Mig 25)
Attachment 1592576

Quoting your old post, I hope you do know that this picture of PLAN J-8II 81192 was taken from a USN EP-3E moments before an ill planned stunt went horribly wrong for the J-8 pilot, Lt Cdr Wang Wei. It resulted in a collision between the PLAN J-8 and USN EP-3 and it caused the J-8 to break up and spin out of control. Eventhough the PLAN pilot apparently ejected over South China Sea, his body was never recovered.

The J-8 was more closer to the Su-15 in terms of design and role, not the MiG-25.

[SmartCat]

No, I mean :(

F-35 in crisis as Pentagon tests find 276 different faults, full tests might not even begin until 2019

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...nt-faults.html

There are significant, well-documented deficiencies resulting in overall ineffective operational performance. Hundreds of which will not be adequately addressed with fixes and corrections verified with flight testing. Key among them are fixing the 25mm cannon which vibrates excessively and the way it is targeted by the aircraft's 'virtual reality' helmet.

Improvements in the internal diagnostics software — the Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS) have also been slow to emerge.
They lead a list including overheating, premature wear of components in the vertical tails and vulnerability to fire. The aircraft's 'objectionable or unacceptable flying qualities' while crossing the sound barrier as yet has no plans for a fix.

Pilots under 136 pounds aren't allowed to fly any F-35 variant. Pilots under 165 pounds have a 1-in-4 chance of death and 100 percent chance of serious neck injury upon ejecting, according to the testing office.

[neel385]

The pains of designing and opertionalising a new aircraft of the fighter class!! Hopefully this will allow people to put in perspective the delays that we have seen w.r.t. the Tejas. And this when the US has a history of aircraft design and production and we are literally starting from scratch!

[SmartCat]

DASSAULT RAFALE

Dassault Rafale is twin engine single/dual seater 4.5 generation multi-role fighter aircraft. In the French Air Force and Navy, Rafale is replacing 5 or 6 aircraft types - including a Naval Reconnaissance and carrier-based fighter aircraft! Like the Mirage 2000, Rafale too is a delta-wing aircraft. One key difference is that Rafale is equipped with canards (tiny wings below/behind the cockpit) like in Sukhoi Su-30 MKI that provides extra lift and agility.

Unique Capabilities of Dassault Rafale:

1) Rafale's AESA Radar can detect other fighter aircraft from 180 to 200 kms, track 40 air targets and classify 8 targets as high threat for engagement. Yet to be upgraded Su-30 MKI's radar range is expected to be much higher though! Rafale's Infrared Search & Track system (useful for sneaking up on enemy aircraft after switching off the on-board radar) can detect air targets up to 100 kms away. IRST system is mounted in front of the canopy, above the nose cone of aircraft



2) Rafale's engines are capable of Supercruise. That is, Rafale can cruise at up to Mach 1.4 speeds without using fuel-guzzling afterburners. This gives Rafale a longer range at high speeds.



3) Rafale is designed to be a low observable aircraft, with stealthy characteristics that give it low Radar Cross-Section of just 1 m2 (as compared to 3 m2 of Mig 21 and 5 m2 of Su-30MKI). Rafale has another trick under its sleeve - SPECTRA Electronic Warfare suite. SPECTRA's Radar Jamming and (rumoured) Active Radar Cancellation capabilities ensures that Rafale's RCS falls to 0.06 m2, same as a large sized bird and lower than a cruise missile. However, this is still no match for RCS of a truly stealthy aircraft like Lockheed Martin F35 Lightning at 0.0035 m2, roughly the same as flying insect.




4) Rafale can do an extreme low altitude flying on auto-pilot, thereby eliminating pilot fatigue or scope for fatal pilot errors on such missions. Real time 3D terrain maps are generated under all-weather conditions. If threats or ground targets are detected, the pilot has an option of going around the threat or taking it out. Up to 10 hours of terrain data can be recorded, which is useful for reconnaissance missions.



5) Rafales are great for hunting down mobile SAM sites. Rafale No. 1 flies at high altitude and "outs" the hidden mobile SAM site. It sends the data to Rafale No. 2 before turning back. Rafale No. 2, which is flying ahead but at low altitude, takes out the mobile SAM site.



6) Cockpit is dominated by 3 large MFDs and an XL sized Heads-Up Display. Minimal number of gauges, displays and switches.



7) Rafale might be a "medium" weight fighter aircraft but pulls punches like Mike Tyson. It's max payload of 9.5 tonnes is 20% more than even Su-30 MKIs. Such high payload and 14 hardpoints (again unusually high) gives it excellent flexibility in terms of range (drop tanks), missiles and/or bombs.



8) A Rafale can transfer its fuel to another Rafale (or any other fighter aircraft equipped with an external fuel intake) mid-flight. This is called "Buddy Refueling". Su-30MKI is equipped with this feature too, but Rafale can carry extra fuel in 3 drop tanks.




Rafale Specifications:

Top Speed: Mach 1.8
Range: 3,700 kms
Maximum Weapons Payload: 9.5 tonnes
Thrust to Weight Ratio: 1.16
Number of Hardpoints: 14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NaC6zREymY&t=144s

[SmartCat]

Dassault Rafale Vs Stealth Fighter Aircraft:

Development of European Rafale/Eurofighter was started at approximately same time as the development of stealth fighter aircraft like American F22/F35, Chinese J20/J31 and Russian T50. However, the Europeans opted for development of non-stealthy aircraft but Dassault still insists that Rafale is a competitor for F35. Against something like Rafale/Su-30MKI, 5th generation stealth fighter aircraft have certain disadvantages -

1) Stealth aircraft can carry only 1.5 to 2 tonnes of bombs or missiles inside internal weapons bay. You can carry more weapons (additional 6 tonnes) on external hardpoints, but when you do that, the stealth aircraft becomes non-stealthy. Basically, in our context, the Chinese stealthy J20/J31 can fire only 4 missiles - and after that, the aircraft has to disengage and go home unarmed - and possibly chased by Indian fighter aircraft.



2) To remain stealthy, a stealth aircraft like J31/J20 needs to switch off its radar and sneak up on a Rafale/Su-30MKI - guided by an AWACS or some other fighter aircraft. Such support might not be available all the time in the battlefield. Sure, IRST system can be used, but then both the system and infra-red homing missiles have limited range. This means the stealth aircraft has to get very close to Su-30MKI/Rafale (and risk being shot down)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-M9jA1INk8

3) Western stealth aircrafts like F-35 are approximately 50% more expensive than non-stealthy Western aircraft like Rafale/Eurofighter. Also, Stealth aircraft like F-35 has 3 times higher per hour flying cost ($45,000 per hour) than Rafale/Su-30MKI ($15,000 per hour)



4) Except for F22 Raptor & Sukhoi T50, stealthy fighter aircraft do not have great manoeuvrability. That's because the aircraft's primary design requirement is reduced radar signature, rather than agility. Rafale once managed to kill even the $250 million F22 Raptor in mock combat.




5) Stealthy aircraft can be detected using low frequency radar. Russia claims S-400 air defense system (which India has ordered) can not only detect a stealth aircraft, but also shoot it down. Stealthy aircraft are neither invisible nor invincible. In 1999 Kosovo War, the Serbians managed to shoot down stealthy F117 Nighthawk with S-125 air defence system, which is based on 1970's radar and missile technology




Having said that, having a few stealthy aircraft among a large number of non-stealthy aircraft can make a huge difference. When it comes to air battles, tactics and strategy is key - it's not all about individual fighter aircraft's or pilot's capabilities.

Rafale Vs Eurofighter Typhoon

In the Indian MMRCA competition, only Rafale & Eurofighter made it to the "finals". After evaluation, IAF technical team voted for Rafale as the winner. This evaluation concurs with Swiss Air Force analysis too. In 2008, Swiss Air Force evaluated Rafale, Eurofighter and Gripen and eventually recommended Rafale. This report was somehow leaked to a Swiss newspaper in 2012



Rafale has significant advantages over Eurofighter in reconnaissance and air to ground missions. Eurofighter is competent in air to air missions, but still not as good as the Rafale. Quoting from Swiss Air Force report -

Among the three candidates, Rafale was the aircraft which demonstrated the best effectiveness and suitability in accomplishment of all types of air-to-air missions, Recce and Strike missions. In addition, Rafale made the best impressions among the pilots. The strong points of Rafale were quality of its sensors such as AESA Radar, Infrared Search & Track system and EW suite SPECTRA. The good data fusion of all its sensors allowed to provide the pilot a very good situational awareness. The Recce pod demonstrated outstanding performance. The Rafale is recommended to be the new fighter aircraft for the Swiss Air Force.

Kahaani Mein Twist: The politicians in Switzerland promptly selected the fighter aircraft that received the lowest overall score - SAAB GRIPEN! They found the Rafale to be too expensive. But Switzerland is a strange democracy where people get to vote for pretty much everything. The citizens of Switzerland (via referendum) decided not to buy Gripen (or any other fighter for that matter) either because they have never fought a war in 200 years!