[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Pics of the first IAF Rafale RB001, a twin seat variant, in full IAF markings


I would really love to see the return of some old style squadron markings on IAF fighters.

Is the Indian flag representation on the rudder correct? It is Green-White-Orange. Should it not be reverse?

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

Is the Indian flag representation on the rudder correct? It is Green-White-Orange. Should it not be reverse?

No, it is not the Indian flag. It is the Indian Air Force's "Fin Flash". Think of it is an identifying mark of that military aircraft's nationality along with roundel(usually painted on the wings). As is obvious, the Finflash is usually painted on the tail fin.

While some countries chose to have their national flag as their Finflash, some have dedicated Finflashes (usually based on the colours of their national flag or their national emblem).

The Indian Air Force Finlash(also painted on Army aircraft). In IAF aircraft,the finflash is painted in such a way that the green part of of the finflash always points towards the cockpit. But in a couple of instances like on the Reconnaissance Canberras & MiG-25s, the IAF finflash was reversed(saffron pointed towards the nose, only on the port side of the tail fin/fins) and based on the photographic evidences available, we believe this was done deliberately, as no other IAF aircraft used this "mirror image" IAF finflash..






Example of teh reversed finflash on an IAF MiG-25R(taken from Narayan Sir's MiG-25 in IAF service thread)


Royal Malaysian Air Force Fin flash:

The RMAF FInflash on one of their Su-30MKMs:


At times, these finflashes are painted in low visibility colours(with a grey shade), like PAF did on their F-16s:



Roundels are another nationality identifying mark that are usually painted on the wings(but it was common to paint it on the tail fin or rear fuselage as well).

Indian Air Force Roundel:


Notice the location of the roundels...
Early IAF Type 76 MiG-21PF( roundel on the wings & rear fuselage). On later IAF MiG-21 and other MiG models, the roundel painted on the rear fuselage was moved to the nose section.


Mirage 2000H:


Royal Malaysian Air Force Roundel:


That roundel on thee port side wing (note TUDM painted on corresponding side of the starboard wing):


A few countries use the same insignia as their roundel & finflash. A great example of this was Air Arms of the former USSR and now Russia. They use Red Star as their finnflash & roundel:
Russian AF Su-35


Soviet AF MiG-23MF:

[ads11]

Originally Posted by Deepsp

Sir, what do you mean by nap-of-the- earth flying? Is this an aviation term?

Further to everything added above, especially skanchan, I'll give you one extremely famous use of NOE flying. Operation Neptune Spear. They'd have used NOE flying to get in fairly undetected into Pakistani air space. Also if you want an Indian movie that tries to depict it, pretty sure they had something similar in Uri, where you can see the helicopters on approach, hugging the terrain as close as they can.

Correct me if I'm wrong but most radar systems are set up to primarily detect objects that are usually at a certain angle to it, ie, you'd have them set up to pick up targets looking up and around if it was your head on a swivel. By flying as close to the ground you're below that horizon for the radar to comfortably detect you, ground based systems that is. And I imagine the closer you are to the ground, you might get lost amongst the noise. I dunno if I managed to get the point across because I'm not the best with the jargon.

[PraNeel]

The naval version of the Tejas achieves an important milestone by successfully performing an arrestor hook landing at the shore-based test facility of the Indian Navy in Goa.
This is a remarkable achievement and India joins the league of few nations who have developed and demonstrated this capability.
The naval version is under development. Next test would be a landing on carrier like INS Vikramaditya.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsCY9sKRDsk

[SmartCat]

An excellent article on capabilities of PAF:
https://theprint.in/defence/how-paki...actics/291522/



Highlights:

- 20 day general service aviation fuel reserve maintained by Pakistan State Oil

- Ratio of 2.5 pilots per aircraft cockpit meaning it can sustain a greater sortie rate over a protracted conflict   with lesser number of aircraft.

- PAF has around 500 AMRAAMs with active seeker and 100+ km range in its stockpile. The F-16 Falcon, armed with the AMRAAM missile, has given the PAF an edge over the IAF in beyond visual range (BVR) combat since 2010

- JF17 Block III will feature and AESA AI radar and the potent SD-10B AAM along with other updates. There are upward of 140 JF-17s in PAF service, with an aim to have a fleet of 250 in the next few years.

- PAF fighters are supported by 4 Saab-2000 ERIEYE and the 4 ZDK-03 series airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) platforms. 2 more Saab ERIEYEs will be inducted by 2020 to give the PAF a total of 10 AEW&C aircraft

- PAF doctrine has evolved from large scale pre-emptive strikes on IAF bases to stand-off attack capability (air launched cruise missiles, glide bombs) primarly because IAF bases are now well-guarded by SAM systems.

- PAF/PLAAF air combat exercises primarily aimed at evaluating performance of Su27/Su30MKK/J11 which are similar to Indian Su30MKI. Close combat and BVR air melees with these aircraft has revealed significant intelligence on the performance and electromagnetic signatures of Russian aircraft & BVR missiles including digital mapping and knowledge of the Minimum Abort Ranges (MAR) of these missiles — which could give an edge to the PAF in planning effective BVR tactics against the IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKIs

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

An excellent article on capabilities of PAF:
https://theprint.in/defence/how-paki...actics/291522/

The PAF and their fleet size is a black box which they only know of. How many planes are currently operational how many are lost in accidents is a mystery.

Between the 8 year period between 1986 to 1994 the PAF lost 8 F-16s in "accidents". This includes one which might have been shot down by a Russian Mig-23 but is counted as a own goal by another F-16.

For 15 years between 1994 to 2009 the PAF lost only 1 F-16 in an accident.

For the next 10 years between 2009 and 2019 not a single one was lost.

Interesting point to note during the 1980s-90s the PAF only had 34-45 F-16s and the maximum attrition rate along with a full supply of spares and support from the US.

When the numbers went by to 70+ the attrition rate became nearly zero and during this period it was under sanctions and spare part supplies were stopped. So 1 lost in 25 years with 70+ operational and 8 lost in 8 years with average of 40 operational.

I think someone is fudging the number's

Source: http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-databas.../airforce/PAF/

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

The PAF and their fleet size is a black box which they only know of. How many planes are currently operational how many are lost in accidents is a mystery.When the numbers went by to 70+ the attrition rate became nearly zero and during this period it was under sanctions and spare part supplies were stopped. So 1 lost in 25 years with 70+ operational and 8 lost in 8 years with average of 40 operational.

Very good analysis.

I think someone is fudging the number's

+1+1

Dear Smartcat thank you for sharing the article. It always pays to know what your opponent is thinking. Some observations from my side.

Originally Posted by SmartCat

- 20 day general service aviation fuel reserve maintained by Pakistan State Oil

This would be similar to most leading Air Forces' It all depends on how you count what is reserve.

- Ratio of 2.5 pilots per aircraft cockpit meaning it can sustain a greater sortie rate over a protracted conflict   with lesser number of aircraft.

Very plausible.

- PAF has around 500 AMRAAMs with active seeker and 100+ km range in its stockpile. The F-16 Falcon, armed with the AMRAAM missile, has given the PAF an edge over the IAF in beyond visual range (BVR) combat since 2010

Don't know about that 500 figure. BVR is a much touted capability... important but not an answer to everything the way these journalists think....if I have a BVR friendly situation and those Indians co-operate then yes my AMRAAM might be better than their Russian missiles. I have a great rat trap but the bloody rat never co-operates then what. BVR got fame in Iraq I and II in a situation of over whelming air superiority in numbers, electronic superiority and training and after a point morale. BVR may not work as advertised in a battle of equals. But the Indian media loves BVR.

- JF17 Block III will feature and AESA AI radar and the potent SD-10B AAM along with other updates. There are upward of 140 JF-17s in PAF service, with an aim to have a fleet of 250 in the next few years.

- PAF fighters are supported by 4 Saab-2000 ERIEYE and the 4 ZDK-03 series airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) platforms. 2 more Saab ERIEYEs will be inducted by 2020 to give the PAF a total of 10 AEW&C aircraft

These two points merit attention.

- PAF doctrine has evolved from large scale pre-emptive strikes on IAF bases to stand-off attack capability (air launched cruise missiles, glide bombs) primarily because IAF bases are now well-guarded by SAM systems.

This is merely stating the obvious. Typical journalist speak by writers who have learnt two paisa of jargon. Nothing new or unusual in this. Glide bombs as a hot war winning tactic!!!The Dam Busters did variations of it in WW-2

- PAF/PLAAF air combat exercises primarily aimed at evaluating performance of Su27/Su30MKK/J11 which are similar to Indian Su30MKI. Close combat and BVR air melees with these aircraft has revealed significant intelligence on the performance and electromagnetic signatures of Russian aircraft & BVR missiles including digital mapping and knowledge of the Minimum Abort Ranges (MAR) of these missiles — which could give an edge to the PAF in planning effective BVR tactics against the IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKIs

We should expect them to do this.

The man behind the machine in the PAF is as good as it is on our side. We should not underestimate them and get the IAF back to 42 squadrons at least.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

- PAF/PLAAF air combat exercises primarily aimed at evaluating performance of Su27/Su30MKK/J11 which are similar to Indian Su30MKI. Close combat and BVR air melees with these aircraft has revealed significant intelligence on the performance and electromagnetic signatures of Russian aircraft & BVR missiles including digital mapping and knowledge of the Minimum Abort Ranges (MAR) of these missiles — which could give an edge to the PAF in planning effective BVR tactics against the IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKIs

The IAF held exercises with RSAF (Republic of Singapore Air Force) F-16C/D Block 52s {Sindex} and with USAF F-16C/D Block 50s {Cope India} exercises, which were more or less the same configuration as Pakistani F-16s. So, the IAF already has a good idea about how to deal with the much vaunted capabilities of PAF F-16s.

The PAF has already flown against PLAAF Flankers in exercises which called Shaheen exercises much before the latest one. All major air forces in the world do such exercises against simulated OPFOR aircraft and it should not be a surprise that PAF too part such exercises with the PLAAF. Only restricting factor for them is they cannot use their F-16s in exercises without permission from their American Godfathers!!!

Originally Posted by Foxbat

The PAF and their fleet size is a black box which they only know of. How many planes are currently operational how many are lost in accidents is a mystery.

Between the 8 year period between 1986 to 1994 the PAF lost 8 F-16s in "accidents". This includes one which might have been shot down by a Russian Mig-23 but is counted as a own goal by another F-16.

For 15 years between 1994 to 2009 the PAF lost only 1 F-16 in an accident.

For the next 10 years between 2009 and 2019 not a single one was lost.

Interesting point to note during the 1980s-90s the PAF only had 34-45 F-16s and the maximum attrition rate along with a full supply of spares and support from the US.

When the numbers went by to 70+ the attrition rate became nearly zero and during this period it was under sanctions and spare part supplies were stopped. So 1 lost in 25 years with 70+ operational and 8 lost in 8 years with average of 40 operational.

As I had posted before earlier, the PAF has built a myth around their F-16s and its pilots, that they are unbeatable and no one can bring down their F-16s. They will go to any extent to hide their losses. They raised a new squadron from the ex-Jordanian MLU F-16A/Bs - 29 sqdn sometime after 2012, whose pilot W/C Nouman Ali Khan shot down Wg Cdr Abhinandan's MiG-21.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

..if I have a BVR friendly situation and those Indians co-operate then yes my AMRAAM might be better than their Russian missiles. I have a great rat trap but the bloody rat never co-operates then what.

Ha ha ha. Very aptly written.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

BVR got fame in Iraq I and II in a situation of over whelming air superiority in numbers, electronic superiority and training and after a point morale. BVR may not work as advertised in a battle of equals. But the Indian media loves BVR.

Agreed wholeheartedly. BVR has been overhyped. The fact that Wcg Cdr Abhinandan's wingman - in another Bison and an unknown number of Su-30MKIs managed to dodge AIM-120s fired at them clearly shows that AIM-120s are not some super weapons they are perceived to be.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The man behind the machine in the PAF is as good as it is on our side. We should not underestimate them and get the IAF back to 42 squadrons at least.

Skill wise, they may be as good as our pilots, but like typical Pakistanis, they are full of themselves. Look a these two fellows bragging and going on about about how they beat a supposedly second grade air force. This looks more like some Bollywood Award function than a show to honour the military.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb6ViAsbxs0

"Hum vahaan khadey ho gaye.... ki Aao, see what is Paaaaksstaan Air Force".

These fellows have conveniently forgotten that the IAF jets were bound by Rules of Engagement, PAF jets were taking pot shots at IAF jets cozily from their side of the border. Obviously IAF jets would go on the defensive when they get fired upon to evade incoming missiles.
By the time the IAF jets may have got the order to go weapons free, the PAF disengaged, turned tail and were running away!!! In the melee, the brave W/C Abhinandan took the fight to the enemy, crossed the LoC and brought down a PAF F-16, before being shot down himself. And the joker Nouman Ali has the gall to call IAF buzdil!!!!
Let one thing to be clear. The IAF intruded into Pakistan, penetrated their airspace, bombed a terrorist camp and came back unscathed. Their target was terrorism, not any Pakistani military establishment. Although when we talk about Pakistani Armed Forces & terrorists, they are two sides of the same coin!!! The circus attempted by the PAF the next day from within their airspace was to avenge the death of their terrorist comrades. None of their jets were able to cross the LoC!!! While the IAF flew AGAINST terrorism, the PAF flew FOR terrorism. It further enhances the belief that the PAF = Terroristan Air Force!!!!

[Deepsp]

Rustom-II (Tapas-BH201) UAV crashes during test flight near Chitradurga.
Tweet link: https://twitter.com/BangaloreMirror/...159813632?s=19

[Deepsp]

In a big show of confidence on indigenous developments, India's Defence Minister Shri Rajnath Singh ji Will fly in LCA Tejas on 19th September.
I think this will be a big morale booster for 'Make in India.'
https://zeenews.india.com/india/lca-...u-2234948.html

[SmartCat]

Shiv Aroor of India Today test drives the HAL Light Combat Helicopter. Apparently, Apache and Russian gunships do not operate well in Ladakh/Kargil like environment. But LCH can, with full weapons load.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlyC8MoJsaU&t=419s

[skanchan95]

As per the article below, the honour of being the second IAF Rafale squadron will go to No. 101 Sqdn "Falcons".

Those who follow Indian aviation history would recall the Close Air Support exploits of this squadron. While flying Su-7s in the 1971 war, they destroyed Pakistan Army armour with 57mm rockets at the Munnawar Tawi crossing and followed it up with low-level attacks on troop & tank concentrations in both Chhamb and Sialkot sectors. Their exploits won them the title of "Falcons of Chhamb".

Both No.17 & No.101 Sqdns flew the Type 96/88 MiG-21M/MFs before being numberplated. Now both sqdns will be resurrected on the Rafale.

IAF ‘technically accepts’ its 1st Rafale ‘RB-001’ from France | India News - Times of India

NEW DELHI: Ahead of the formal handing over of the first Rafale fighter to India on October 8, the IAF has “technically accepted” the jet at the Bordeaux manufacturing facility of Dassault Aviation in France.

The twin-seat jet has the tail number “RB-001” to mark the role played by IAF chief-designate Air Marshal RKS Bhadauria in finalising the Rs 59,000 crore deal in September 2016.

The multi-role fighter was accepted by a team led by IAF deputy chief Air Marshal VR Chaudhari, who also flew in the plane for about an hour. Defence minister Rajnath Singh will be in France for the official induction ceremony on October 8, which will also include his French counterpart, as was reported earlier by TOI.

The first four Rafale jets will actually touch down in Ambala only in May next year after training of the “main” induction team of around 10 pilots, 10 flight engineers and 40 technicians in France. All the 36 jets – eight of them twin-seaters – will be delivered by April 2022.

IAF has resurrected its 17 ‘Golden Arrows’ Squadron at Ambala for the first 18 Rafale jets meant for the western front with Pakistan. The 101 “Falcons” Squadron, in turn, will have the next 18 jets based at Hasimara (West Bengal) to cater for China. The 13 India-Specific Enhancements or upgrade on the 36 jets will, however, become fully operational only by September-October 2022 because they will require another six months to undergo “software certification” after all of them have arrived in India. India has already paid over Rs 34,000 crore to France in “milestone-linked instalments” under the 2016 contract.

The Air Chief's thoughts on the Feb 26/27 events. Unlike the mindless chest thumping by Pakistan Air Force fellows, look how calm, composed and professional ACM Dhanoa is in his statements

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAxoAYD-JQs

[himanshugoswami]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Very good analysis.
+1+1

Dear Smartcat thank you for sharing the article. It always pays to know what your opponent is thinking. Some observations from my side.
This would be similar to most leading Air Forces' It all depends on how you count what is reserve.
Very plausible.Don't know about that 500 figure. BVR is a much touted capability... important but not an answer to everything the way these journalists think....if I have a BVR friendly situation and those Indians co-operate then yes my AMRAAM might be better than their Russian missiles. I have a great rat trap but the bloody rat never co-operates then what. BVR got fame in Iraq I and II in a situation of over whelming air superiority in numbers, electronic superiority and training and after a point morale. BVR may not work as advertised in a battle of equals. But the Indian media loves BVR. These two points merit attention.
This is merely stating the obvious. Typical journalist speak by writers who have learnt two paisa of jargon. Nothing new or unusual in this. Glide bombs as a hot war winning tactic!!!The Dam Busters did variations of it in WW-2
We should expect them to do this.

The man behind the machine in the PAF is as good as it is on our side. We should not underestimate them and get the IAF back to 42 squadrons at least.

as regards the much vaunted AMRAAM BVRs- the missile itself means squat if the operator is not skilled enough to use it.

On Feb 27th, the PAF pilots, all experienced viper drivers by all accounts, launched the AMRAAMs at D Max-1, indicating two things:


(I) they did not want to get in the merge with the SU30 since at WVR range their vipers will be toast

(II) They were unsure of the BVR capabilities of IAF and decided to play safe.


This is not the sign of a fighting force, no matter what they tout. In the process, they allowed the IAF AWACS and the SU30s to not only read the signature of the AMRAAMs but also gave them enough time to deploy countermeasures successfully. the fact that the "brain" of the AMRAAM was fried by the SU30 says a lot. Uncle Sam will certainly not be a happy man.


Yes, IAF is a smidgen behind in BVR range, but that has been remedied with emergency purchases of R27s, which have been delivered.

Plus, basis credible inputs, IAF is VERY gung ho with the performance of Astra. the chatter is that with Astra maturing, even the Meteor wont be needed on anything other than the Rafale (since that one is a package deal). ANd please note, Meteor is rated as by far the best BVR missile today in operation, way ahead of the AMRAAMs


So, as always, these journos know squat and only sensationalize things to suit their own agenda.


Cheers

H

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

As per the article below, the honour of being the second IAF Rafale squadron will go to No. 101 Sqdn "Falcons".

Those who follow Indian aviation history would recall the Close Air Support exploits of this squadron. While flying Su-7s in the 1971 war, they destroyed Pakistan Army armour with 57mm rockets at the Munnawar Tawi crossing and followed it up with low-level attacks on troop & tank concentrations in both Chhamb and Sialkot sectors. Their exploits won them the title of "Falcons of Chhamb".

Both No.17 & No.101 Sqdns flew the Type 96/88 MiG-21M/MFs before being numberplated. Now both sqdns will be resurrected on the Rafale.

IAF ‘technically accepts’ its 1st Rafale ‘RB-001’ from France | India News - Times of India



The Air Chief's thoughts on the Feb 26/27 events. Unlike the mindless chest thumping by Pakistan Air Force fellows, look how calm, composed and professional ACM Dhanoa is in his statements
https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=GAxoAYD-JQs

In fact, I admired him after an interview he gave to some journalist about the deployment of a Mig 21 during the Balakote and aftermath. The journalist asked him why deploy a Mig 21 at that juncture. He simply said “ why not?” . “ You have to go with what you have in the operating theatre”.. That shows confidence.

[SmartCat]

Look what I found on Google Playstore: "IAF - A cut above"
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...threye.iaf.aca

It is an official IAF game for Android and iOS. You can fly all IAF fighter aircraft (including Rafale), transport aircraft and helicopters. You can even be Abhinandan while flying a Mig 21

Trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4pYoGhQyYc

Media article:
Indian Air Force A Cut Above lets you become a virtual IAF fighter
https://www.business-standard.com/ar...0100379_1.html