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Old 9th May 2020, 22:02   #931
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
We seem to lose more aircraft due to accidents than in action. All types of aircraft included, without any exception.
Pray we never have to loose aircraft in action. And as the saying goes, the more you sweat in training, less you bleed in war.
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Old 9th May 2020, 22:34   #932
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

^^ I feel peacetime loss of aircraft for us is one of the highest in the world. It will be interesting to see some country-wise statistics for this.
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Old 9th May 2020, 23:38   #933
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Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
Pray we never have to loose aircraft in action. And as the saying goes, the more you sweat in training, less you bleed in war.
But still losing an asset or a soldier during peace time activity is not something any armed force would want. Especially, a bird which was recently upgraded.
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Old 10th May 2020, 11:10   #934
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

If I remember right we hear about two - three accidental losses almost every year. Mig 29 UPG now, earlier it was Mirage 2000, Su 30 MKi,Jaguar, Mig 21, helicopters. Even losing helicopters to friendly fire. The only aircraft not yet lost is the Tejas. We can reconcile with Mig 21 losses somewhat, they are called by a special name anyway.

Similar incidents and accidents happen with Indian Navy assets too, including subs. I wonder if the CAG made a mention of these in their reports anytime.

Is it lackadaisical maintenance, none too competent personnel, sub standard spares, or what? Maybe all factors combined. I don't think any other comparable air force or navy loses assets in peacetime with comparable regularity.

I wonder if these losses are covered by any kind of insurance, or get footed by the taxpayer.

Last edited by Gansan : 10th May 2020 at 11:13.
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Old 10th May 2020, 11:51   #935
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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
...

Is it lackadaisical maintenance, none too competent personnel, sub standard spares, or what? Maybe all factors combined. I don't think any other comparable air force or navy loses assets in peacetime with comparable regularity.

I wonder if these losses are covered by any kind of insurance, or get footed by the taxpayer.
Gansan sir, the Heli shoot down was a series of human errors and procedural mishaps. Further, if I remember right in this very thread we had a discussion about flying hours during peacetime of various airforces around the world. If I am not mistaken our assests are used relatively more than comparable forces around the world. Hence, more possibility for a mistake or failures. I am not justifying that this should happen. As far as the failure rates are concerned Europe and in particular German airforce or even army for that matter is an unimaginable worst state.

Tejas, well let us see when it enters full service and flies in the operational squadrons. The advantages so far has been that HAL has been sending or stationing it's engineers right next to the birds wherever it has been taken to. Will this be the case after handover? Only time will tell.
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Old 10th May 2020, 17:27   #936
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

In FY 2018-19 the IAF lost 14* aircraft in peace time exercises, patrols, missions. This was out of a rough total of ~1600 aircraft not counting some very light machines. The F-15 which is widely used for now 44 years in squadron service has a track of ~3 aircraft losses per year in peacetime flying out of a total of ~1200 built of which I guess about 900 on an average would have been in squadron service at a point in time over the last decade. If we extrapolated the ~900 number and scaled it to 1600 we'd get between 5 to 6 hull write-off's a year for the F-15.

Let's have a peep at the other end of the scale - the English Electric Lightning - a notorious aircraft where safety was concerned. A total of 337 were built and over a 29 year squadron career 81 were lost in peacetime flying or 2.8 per year. Scaling that up to the IAF's 1600 fleet size we get a loss number of between 13 to 14 aircraft per year.

Our picture doesn't look good if our losses are ball park in the same zone as the Lightning. I'll add here that sadly our losses are dominated by the MiG-29, MiG-21, MiG-27 & Su-30. The two western designs - Jaguar and Mirage have had a relatively much better record even after adjusting for their lower numbers. If you see a lot of these crashes are engine related. the MiG engines are old and the Su-30 engines are not as reliable as we'd want them to be.

* Not counting the MiG-21 lost to enemy action or the Mi-17 lost to a blue on blue.
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Old 10th May 2020, 19:43   #937
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Our picture doesn't look good if our losses are ball park in the same zone as the Lightning. I'll add here that sadly our losses are dominated by the MiG-29, MiG-21, MiG-27 & Su-30. The two western designs - Jaguar and Mirage have had a relatively much better record even after adjusting for their lower numbers. If you see a lot of these crashes are engine related. the MiG engines are old and the Su-30 engines are not as reliable as we'd want them to be.
Really appreciate trying to statistically put things in context! What I will say the comment about the engines reminds me of is the fact that I'm pretty sure for major engine overhaul we still have to ship the whole damn thing all the way to Russia (correct me if I'm wrong). This can't be a constructive way of doing this, even in peacetime but especially not in wartime. More than anything India probably needs to set up domestic engine overhaul facilities.

Coming back to the peacetime attrition rates across the services, while I agree that all forces will face this, you can't help but feel that it's all too familiar for India. A simple look at the numbers from V Narayan alone allows us to see where the problem lies, surely those in the corridors of power are seeing the same data.

And on another note, the modern Luftwaffe and Bundeswehr in general is a sad facsimile of what was at the close of the Cold War an understandably very proficient force. They're a bit of a punchline amongst their own ranks today, so hardly a worthy comparison unless India too aspires to simply tick the bare minimum boxes like the Germans are trying to do.
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Old 10th May 2020, 20:26   #938
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Actually we have lost an IAF Mig29 after a pretty long time. Probably after more than 6 years, though am not very sure. So that's really a very good safety record for the Mig 29.
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Old 11th May 2020, 08:12   #939
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Actually we have lost an IAF Mig29 after a pretty long time. Probably after more than 6 years, though am not very sure. So that's really a very good safety record for the Mig 29.
you may also want to check the flight hours of the Fulcrum compared to, say, the Flanker or the Mirage.

that RD 33 engine isn't exactly a paragon of reliability or ease of maintenance. Please remember that the Fulcrum was designed as a rugged bird, that could take off from unprepared strips too (hence the unique air intake closure mechanism during taxi). This meant certain compromises in the finesse department, which shows not just in the airframe but also the engine. the engine is a smoky beast, with awesome thrust, but from what I know, is heavy on maintenance. The UPG may have improved this greatly, my views are based on the legacy fulcrums.

That said, to date it remains, IMHO, the most beautiful bird to take to the skies after the Spitfire. And it can take on pretty much anything and come out tops in a WVR engagement.
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Old 11th May 2020, 08:36   #940
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post

the Su-30 engines are not as reliable as we'd want them to be.

* Not counting the MiG-21 lost to enemy action or the Mi-17 lost to a blue on blue.
Flameouts are a very real and not infrequent occurrence in the AL31 engine. a COI at the time of Mr. Parrikar concluded that oil pump and metal fatigue were the major causes. The MTBO of the AL31 is 1000 hours and within that, the titanium nozzle has an MTBO of 500 hours. While the 1000 hour figure is comparable with the legacy western engines like the P&W F110 and the GE F404, the engines powering the F22 and the F35 have reported MTBO of 2000 hours.
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Old 11th May 2020, 09:03   #941
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by himanshugoswami View Post
Flameouts are a very real and not infrequent occurrence in the AL31 engine..... The MTBO of the AL31 is 1000 hours and within that, the titanium nozzle has an MTBO of 500 hours. While the 1000 hour figure is comparable with the legacy western engines like the P&W F110 and the GE F404, the engines powering the F22 and the F35 have reported MTBO of 2000 hours.
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Originally Posted by himanshugoswami View Post
that RD 33 engine isn't exactly a paragon of reliability or ease of maintenance. The UPG may have improved this greatly, my views are based on the legacy fulcrums.
Well said. Thank you for the data. Russian, or more correctly Soviet, thinking was driven by the design philosophy of vast numbers, of which many won't survive, and each machine has a specific short burn mission at which it must excel. And then the machine would get rotated back to their vast vast maintenance infrastructure. They didn't think in terms of the need for each machine to be capable of sustained operations by itself. But during the time that it was supposed to be in the field, within this philosophy, it was expected to require almost no maintenance and operate in very rugged conditions.
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And it can take on pretty much anything and come out tops in a WVR engagement.
Absolutely.
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Really appreciate trying to statistically put things in context! What I will say the comment about the engines reminds me of is the fact that I'm pretty sure for major engine overhaul we still have to ship the whole damn thing all the way to Russia (correct me if I'm wrong).
Engine maintenance comes in several stages - in situ, off the aircraft {or off the pod as we called it for airliners} but in country, off the aircraft and shipped to Russia. The first two are, I am quite sure, being done by the IAF for the Lyulka AL-31F, the SNECMA M53 and the Klimov's on the Mi-17s. I am quite sure {though I might be wrong} that all overhauls A to Z were/are being done by the IAF/HAL for the RR Adour & Tumanskii R25. I do not know about the R33. Shipping to Russia would only be at the MTBO where the engine is 'hours expired' in case of the Lyulkas.
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Old 11th May 2020, 09:37   #942
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post

Engine maintenance comes in several stages - in situ, off the aircraft {or off the pod as we called it for airliners} but in country, off the aircraft and shipped to Russia. The first two are, I am quite sure, being done by the IAF for the Lyulka AL-31F, the SNECMA M53 and the Klimov's on the Mi-17s. I am quite sure {though I might be wrong} that all overhauls A to Z were/are being done by the IAF/HAL for the RR Adour & Tumanskii R25. I do not know about the R33. Shipping to Russia would only be at the MTBO where the engine is 'hours expired' in case of the Lyulkas.
Spot on Sir.

As re the AL31F though, since 2019, HAL Nashik has upgraded its capability to do a complete overhaul. Similar facility was being put in place for the RD 33 at Koraput, but not sure of the status of that one.

On a separate note, the IAF 11 BRD is also upping its game for a complete overhaul capability of Russian legacy fighters and the same is with 5 BRD for the Mirages. So they are not putting all eggs in HAL basket, which is good.
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Old 11th May 2020, 10:18   #943
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Apart from what all has been discussed (thanks to the data) what could/should IAF as user do better? They must have seen the mtbo numbers and maintenance schedules while considering purchasing these birds. If they still went ahead and bought these they must have done some kind of calculation of cost per usage or some similar sorts. Is it totally wrong? Or is IAF still using legacy parameters from the lightning days? Or is the cost factor the only criteria for consideration of purchase?

To me as an engineer, a machine just does what it was designed to do for as long as it was designed to. Irrespective of quality, if a user misuses it, it will fail prematurely. If inspite of doing everything right it fails, the manufacturer should adjust his mtbo or we should buy some other products. IAF imho has enough experience with russian origin birds and their life worth. If say IAF is following the maintenance schedule strictly even with bad quality spares by being cautious and replacing them earlier than the mtbo paper number, why are we having so many accidents? So where is the problem?

Last edited by AlphaKilo : 11th May 2020 at 10:28.
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Old 11th May 2020, 12:18   #944
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
Apart from what all has been discussed (thanks to the data) what could/should IAF as user do better? They must have seen the mtbo numbers and maintenance schedules while considering purchasing these birds. If they still went ahead and bought these they must have done some kind of calculation of cost per usage or some similar sorts. Is it totally wrong? Or is IAF still using legacy parameters from the lightning days? Or is the cost factor the only criteria for consideration of purchase?

To me as an engineer, a machine just does what it was designed to do for as long as it was designed to. Irrespective of quality, if a user misuses it, it will fail prematurely. If inspite of doing everything right it fails, the manufacturer should adjust his mtbo or we should buy some other products. IAF imho has enough experience with russian origin birds and their life worth. If say IAF is following the maintenance schedule strictly even with bad quality spares by being cautious and replacing them earlier than the mtbo paper number, why are we having so many accidents? So where is the problem?
Weapons purchases are more of a political decision than a forces decision. When India started procuring Soviet aircraft, we didn't have many options. Interesting trivia- India was all set to by the Saab Viggen in response to Pak acquisition of the F16. Till then the Soviets were keeping the Mig 29 away from India but all of a sudden the Mig 29 was on the table. The rest is political. Once the soviets fielded the Fulcrum, there was little the IAF could do.

Even the Mirage 2000 was bought by India under the pretext of a strategic delivery platform for the supposedly under development strategic weapons (I say supposedly because India went overtly nuclear only post Smiling Buddha). Since the Soviets did not have anything in their arsenal at that time for strategic weapons delivery, they could not derail the M2K acquisition (thank heavens!)

So the IAF was forced to go with Soviet equipment for most parts. As re maintenance, you can only maintain a machine so far, but a bad design remains a bad design. Throw in bureaucratic sloth and corruption in procurement of spares, and you have the perfect cocktail for disaster that we have witnessed.

The forces consider Parrikar as the best RM India ever had for one reason- he focused on serviceability and availability of platforms. That ensured that the maintenance cycle and procurement became more efficient.

During the MMRCA, the IAF was pretty clear that it will not be the Mig 35, way before they were sure it will be the Rafale. Interestingly if the F16 block 70 came with guarantees of no sanctions or strings, the IAF will jump at it. They actually like the platform quite a bit, having used and trained against the Singapore AF F16 B52s quite extensively. But, its all political at the end of the day and the govt of the day finally decides what platform to procure. the role of the IAF is limited to issuance of the ASQR and evaluating T1 against it. Rest is upto the babus.
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Old 11th May 2020, 13:06   #945
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Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

!!RANT ALERT!! I understand all parameters/dimensions of the problem that the forces are facing. My point is, if the forces, Airforce in particular know that the Russian birds are highly unreliable they need to tone down their operational/training missions to the absolute minimum (until they get quality equipment) to not cause any damage to the trained souls. Army successfully did this with the Arjun MBT and TATRA platforms.

If that is not an option, cry loud and hard and keep crying until they get what they want. How can they put up with 13-14 accidents per year? It is almost 13 - 14 highly trained men and women who add a significant cost factor over the cost of the machine itself and the emotional factor to their respective families. Finally, the image factor! I just cannot accept the fact that IAF is still putting up with all this even after so many years. They should establish some contacts or connections within HAL that they can use to obtain enhanced quality spares or ensure timely purchases. Easier said than done.

Navy in my opinion has been a trend setter so far in that perspective. They have had their struggles and niggles but they kept pushing and now they are at a stage where they are clear in what they want and from where. They have even managed a quality local manufacturing base. Enough discussed about Navy and its indigenous efforts.

All in all, I simply cannot accept losing lives for no fault of their own and for so many decades in succession! Clapping hands or lighting dia or even showering rose petals for the warriors (of all sorts) isn't going to help them perform their task properly unless they get quality equipment.

!! RANT OVER !!

Last edited by AlphaKilo : 11th May 2020 at 13:09.
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