[PGA]

Not exactly pertaining to the topic of the thread but nevertheless closely associated with military and it's future.

The big three US, Russia and China to an extent have outsourced their fighting abilities. From what is known from the open source , each of them maintain a decent sized PMCs. Private Military Contractors nowadays operate in greater numbers as compared to regulars in Afghanistan and Iraq, Russia is supposed to have used them extensively in Ukraine, China is securing its assets in Africa using them.Though land based presently, I am sure the next domain is theirs for calling anyday.

Maintaining a standing military has become hugely expensive even for the rich nations, at times unbearable.

The concept of acquiring and occupying territories too seem outdated and last few years have shown the futility of effort. Few men sitting on consoles many miles away can bring an enemy to knees faster than a division of Army and at much lesser cost.

Future is towards punitive strikes and cold stike start and avoidance. WW2 kind of maneuvering armies and armadas seem out for sure. Then, shouldn't we be looking at assets for that purpose, few Rafales and some SU30s and Tejas will do the desired job with aplomb.

To me it seems the scheme of things is quite well appreciated by the strategic guys in the chair and thus steering the acquisition accordingly. Have the the processes become any more efficient, can't say.

[AlphaKilo]

The recent proposal by the Indian army to include officers and enlisted men/women for a period of 3/5yrs is a step in a similar direction I guess.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/def...w/75720210.cms

I am sure this will not stop with the army if this is approved. We might see some mercenary pilots.

[DrPriyankT]

As predicted, ACM has dug in his heels for the MMRCA, along with the Tejas. If our fleet acquisition progresses in this the manner described in this article, we finally may have a fleet with lesser maintenance complexities.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/theprin.../424468/%3famp

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

As predicted, ACM has dug in his heels for the MMRCA, along with the Tejas. If our fleet acquisition progresses in this the manner described in this article, we finally may have a fleet with lesser maintenance complexities.

Confusing! Can some explain to me what is the final config going to be? I am totally lost now.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

2) The trend of declining high Mach number combat aircraft: I remember reading early brochures of fighter planes in a air combat magazine in the early 80s. There were Tomcats with Mach 2.34, F15s with M2.5, Mirage F1 with M2.2 , even bombers like F-111 and B-58 had high Mach 2+ numbers.

I guess all a reflection of whatever the military doctrine of its respective era was at the time.

Whereas some of these fighters were capable of these speeds, I believe they were usually stripped down versions, specially prepared etc.

Their line versions, whilst certainly capable of supersonic speeds, flew at much lower speeds.

With the exception of the B58, which was really designed as an supersonic Mach 2+ bomber. Always really liked the Hustler. Although in practice I don't think it was considered very successful. Few have survived in a few museums in the USA. There is a nice one on display at the SAC museum in Nebraska

Have a look at this very cool drone video. Lots of other very interesting hardware till it gets to the B58, Hustler around the 3 minute mark

https://youtu.be/3WV5lkGqmb8

[DrPriyankT]

Originally Posted by AlphaKilo

Confusing! Can some explain to me what is the final config going to be? I am totally lost now.

From my understanding, I feel the final inventory will be 272+?12 Su-30MKI for the heavy fighter category

36 Rafale+114 MMRCA + 100 AMCA(Long Term) to replace the Six Squadrons of Jaguars, 3 Squadrons of Mirage-2K and Mig-29 UPG each. They fill in for the medium weight fighters

40 Mk1+ 83 Mk1A + 77 Tejas Mk2 (MWF) to replace the Mig-21's to fill in for the light fighter category.

Comments and corrections welcome.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

From my understanding, I feel the final inventory will be 272+?12 Su-30MKI for the heavy fighter category

36 Rafale+114 MMRCA + 100 AMCA(Long Term) to replace the Six Squadrons of Jaguars, 3 Squadrons of Mirage-2K and Mig-29 UPG each. They fill in for the medium weight fighters

40 Mk1+ 83 Mk1A + 77 Tejas Mk2 (MWF) to replace the Mig-21's to fill in for the light fighter category.

Comments and corrections welcome.

I guess Tejas+Su30+Rafale would be a great combination, along with a significant numbers of UCAVs. But we need much higher numbers than 800-900 odd. For the size of our country, with strategic adversities on both flanks, sub-1000 numbers look too small. We should have had 1500+ numbers by now.

[V.Narayan]

IAF chief contradicts CDS Rawat, says plan is to buy 114 foreign fighters besides LCA Tejas

https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-chie...rom%20%251%24s

Interesting. Rawat does have a tendency to shoot his mouth off a bit. The job of the CDS is to ensure better co-ordination and co-operation between the Armed Forces and not let loose greater confusion! Sanity prevails.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Interesting. Rawat does have a tendency to shoot his mouth off a bit. The job of the CDS is to ensure better co-ordination and co-operation between the Armed Forces and not let loose greater confusion! Sanity prevails.

You're right. He does tend to shoot his mouth off. Sometimes I wonder..does the CDS know what his job entails? Or is it evolving i.e. maybe the details of his role and responsibilities are still being fleshed out by the Mandarins in the Govt?

I can imagine coordination, optimisations between the 3 arms of the Services and "speaking in one voice" would be a primary responsibility. Contradictory views from the top men is a bit of an embarrassing situation IMO.

[confused.geek]

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

From my understanding, I feel the final inventory will be 272+?12 Su-30MKI for the heavy fighter category

36 Rafale+114 MMRCA + 100 AMCA(Long Term) to replace the Six Squadrons of Jaguars, 3 Squadrons of Mirage-2K and Mig-29 UPG each. They fill in for the medium weight fighters

40 Mk1+ 83 Mk1A + 77 Tejas Mk2 (MWF) to replace the Mig-21's to fill in for the light fighter category.

Comments and corrections welcome.

Agree in theory, but the replacement of the Jaguars and Mirage 2000s is a little doubtful right away. They occupy the prime position of our short range free fall / laser guided nuclear bomb platforms. Both aircraft underwent extensive airframe modifications to accomplish this capability. All though I find this a little weird considering the Jaguar in its current DARIN II avatar is under powered due to additional weight and the DARIN III makes the power problem worse. Mirage 2000s on the other hand were used successfully during Kargil and more recently in Balakot, proving their versatility. So perhaps they will retire the Jaguar and replace it with the Rafale which is it design wise successor.

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Interesting. Rawat does have a tendency to shoot his mouth off a bit. The job of the CDS is to ensure better co-ordination and co-operation between the Armed Forces and not let loose greater confusion! Sanity prevails.

Originally Posted by R2D2

You're right. He does tend to shoot his mouth off. Sometimes I wonder..does the CDS know what his job entails? Or is it evolving i.e. maybe the details of his role and responsibilities are still being fleshed out by the Mandarins in the Govt?

I can imagine coordination, optimisations between the 3 arms of the Services and "speaking in one voice" would be a primary responsibility. Contradictory views from the top men is a bit of an embarrassing situation IMO.

I feel it would have been better to have someone not from either of the 3 services in the CDS post (isn't it like that in the US?) because putting the just superannuated Chief of Army Staff might make him inadvertently have some bias, although he isn't supposed to. Further, being the senior most officer, he might influence/overrule the current Chiefs from all three services (not by the powers vested in him by the constitution but by the virtue of his seniority).

My previous post on my confusion stemmed from the contradicting press information given by the CDS and the CAS. Keeping history in mind, I will jump the gun and speculate that the 114 Medium fighter + 100 MWF/AMCA requirement will end up becoming a "kichdi" of different fighters like before (Jags, Mirages, MiG-23,25,27,29s)! I know world wide all big air forces have this config but my dream team is something like the following:

- 200 LCAs (in diff Technology levels) - quick interceptor, keep upgrading with time, spread across the country's borders
- 300 Super Sukhois (upgraded Su-30MKIs) - Heavy and area dominance, replace with 5++ gen or UCAVs in the future
- 150 MWF (LCA medium heavy - single aircraft type) - work horses and technologically very advanced, keep upgrading
- 150 UCAVs (wingman like support birds) - Support and for the dirty work, upgrades
- 50 odd Rustom or Super Rustom (HALE) - Recon/AWAC support, upgrades
- 100 odd tankers, AWACS, Transporters (light, med., heavy) - slowly indigenise
- 100 Helis (Attack, support, light attack, Dhruvs, Rudras, Chinhooks) - slowly indigenise.

I am proving that I am a true blue Armchair marshall!

[DrPriyankT]

Here is my humble attempt to answer both confused.geek and alphakilo.

The Darin-3 upgrade actually morphs the Jaguar into a very modern up-to-date precision strike aircraft. However, the Adour engines, are now getting a bit long in the tooth, and they are not able to generate a very respectable amount of power, commensurate to the weight added to the plane for the equipment included in Darin-3. The Honeywell F-125IN was selected to re-engine the Jag, but the cost for re-engining was high, and hence the project has either been shelved or is in cold storage. Currently the main issue with the adour, is the questionable one-engine out performance for the plane, which limits its ability to perform missions with respectable payloads, especially in the vicinity of our mountain orders. As per my basic knowledge and information, it should not be much of an issue for deserts and maritime missions. Also, the limitations of low engine power may affect its ability to be agile to avoid AAM's or SAM's and to run quickly from approaching enemy fighters. Yes, the Mirage-2K currently does not have these issues, but remember, the Mirage's were acquired majorly in the 1980's, with a few acquired in the early 2000's. In spite of all electronic upgrades we may have done on them, airframe life will catch up with them at one point of time. By 2030 when we plan to start retiring them, the Jag-Mig-29-Mirage-2K trio will start reaching an age of 40-45 years on an average especially from planes acquired inthe 80's. The Rafale is the spiritual successor of the 2K, especially in the IAF scheme of things and more so when it comes to nuclear weapons delivery.

https://www.aninews.in/news/national...0200519144203/

https://m.rediff.com/news/report/unc...s/20190130.htm

The US CDS is definitely a uniformed officer of the US Armed Forces, he/she needs to be four starred general from their Army/Navy/Marines/Air-Force and not some babu, from their DoD. For further information, please check the wikipedia link I am pasting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairm...hiefs_of_Staff

Yes, your Alphakilo Airforce does look good, but I would still put in the 36+114 MMRCA's in lieu of a few MWF's and Tejas's. They are actually our omnirole fighters, which leave our Sukhoi's for long range interception and strikes. And my personal opinion is we need more choppers and transport planes for a country of our size, especially since our armed forces also have HADR missions in our nation. As per my opinion, the attack choppers should be transferred to the Army as they are better organically integrated with our strike corps and integrated battle groups.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Any truth to the rumour that he wanted more money than we were agreeable to?

Sutripta

I doubt it. As many might know, Dr. Tank and many of his Focke-Wulf co-workers moved to Argentina after the end of WW2. Dr. Tank's last aircraft design in Argentina was the IAe Pilqui II, which was based on the FW Ta-183. Work on the Pliqui II was stopped in the early 50s because of severe financial crisis in Argentina. Many of the Germans moved to US . But Dr. Tank moved to Madras to teach in the Madras Institute of Technology.

No matter how much Pandit Nehru is criticized today, it was Pandit Nehru's dream and vision for India to be modern and self reliant in all fields. As a part of that in the early-50s, he he laid emphasis on indigenous design & manufacture of aircraft in India to lessen dependence of foreign manufacturers. While short term import of fighter aircraft was inevitable, the national policy envisaged license production of aircraft in technical collaboration with foreign manufacturers in the initial stages, followed by design, development and manufacturing facilities which would be geared towards fulfilling requirements of the IAF. So the govt was on the lookout for aircraft designers. As luck would have it, Dr Tank was in India about the same time.

Moving back to Dr Tank, He was introduced by the German Embassy to the Indian Defence Minister. Several meetings later, in the mid-1950s he was invited and contracted to design a modern supersonic fighter for the Indian Air Force.Dr Tank accepted it without any reservation and in August 1956,Dr Tank arrived in Bangalore with his deputy and his team of German engineers who went on to give shape and substance to India's first jet fighter - the HF-24.

Dr . Tank was so involved in the HF-24 project, that he himself flew in the full scale HF-24 glider model (in the back seat) many times. It was a proud moment not only for Dr Tank but the entire country when the first HF-24 flew for the first time in 1961. Pandit Nehru described the HF-24 as a Gazelle in the Air. The HF-24 was formally christened as the Marut by the then Defence Minister Yashwantrao Chavan in 1964. Barely a fortnight later, Pandit Nehru passed away, but one his dreams for India had already taken form and flight.

Dr. Tank moved back to Germany in 1970 after his contract was over. The inability to find a suitable engine plagued the HF-24's development. As I wrote earlier, he remained involved in some way or the other in Indian aeronautics. So it probably would be unfair to speculate in rumours about him being greedy.

Another aspect of the HF-24's development not many know about was the Egyptian involvement. Like Dr Tank,. another Legendary German aircraft designer - Willie Messerchmitt had begun a similar aircraft programme in Egypt in the 1960s. The Egyptian jet was called the HA-300 and it was powered by the E-300 engine designed by an Austrian engineer. In the 1960s, at the peak of the non-Aligned Movement and the particularly close ties between Pandit Nehru and President Gamal Abdul Nasser of Egypt, decisions were taken at the highest level to collaborate on new aircraft and aircraft engine technologies and developments .

In 1963, and Indian test pilot was deputed to Egypt to the parallel HA-200 jet trainer programme, but the chief the Egyptian Air Force asked him to keep an eye also on the HA-300 programme. The HA-200 was powered by the same Orpheus engine that powered the HF-24.

As a part of the Indo-Egypt collaboration, the reheat(afterburner) equipped E-300 engine of the HA-300 was being considered as an option for the HF-24. HAL meanwhile had built an HF-24 prototype with a reheated Orpheus engines which had an enlarged rear end. It would have been a relatively simple job to modify it to replace one or both Orpheus engines with the E-300. This HF-24 prototype, referred to as HF-24M.1BX, was shipped to Egypt. Shortly thereafter the aircraft was assembled and the starboard Orpheus engine was replaced by the E-300 engine and this HF-24 even sported Egyptian Air Force markings.

It was assumed by HAL that the Egyptians would be interested in E-300 powered HF-24 for their Air Force. But soon, it became clear that it wasn't the case. The Indian interest in the E-300 dissipated and the HA-300 programme ended when German engineers began to leave Egypt.

Originally Posted by confused.geek

All though I find this a little weird considering the Jaguar in its current DARIN II avatar is under powered due to additional weight and the DARIN III makes the power problem worse.

Externally, the single seat Jaguar DARIN III is the same as the original Jaguar IMs. The DARIN III Jaguar IS loses its chisel nose and gets a radar equipped nose dome like the Jaguar IM. The radar equipped, maritime strike Jaguar IMs too are getting upgraded to DARIN III standards which means their original Agave radar is being replaced by the Israeli Elta multi-mode radar.

After the Sea Eagle AShMs were retired, the Jaguar IM was left without its primary weapon. Jaguar IMs also are now compatible with the Boeing AGM-84 AShM which I assume the DARIN III Jaguar IS fleet too would be and I would like to think the radar re-equipment plan as a part of the DARIN III single seat Jaguar fleet was a part of the pan to make the entire Jaguar fleet maritime strike capable. The twin seat DARIN III Jaguar ITs do not get the radar for obvious reasons.

The F125IN engine re-equipment for the Jaguar fleet was deemed expensive and shelved. Also, let us remember the Jaguar was never meant or designed to be a high altitude bomber. It was , like the MiG-27, designed to be a low level intruder - a role for which it is still good. The same mistake is in a way being repeated with the Tejas which was deigned to replace the MiG-21, but is being expected to do the role of a Mirage 2000!!!!

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Another aspect of the HF-24's development not many know about was the Egyptian involvement.

This I absolutely did not know. Thanks.

Sutripta

[AlphaKilo]

A general question to the experts, why is the IAF operating Submarine hunters or low level bombers? Aren't they better suited to be onboard an Aircraft carrier? Lack of big carrier battle groups is clear to me but can this not be a better distribution of resources with growing size and purchasing power?