[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Dieseltuned

2. Has IAF or any other air force ever used their trainer aircrafts on active squadron duty ? Do these trainer aircrafts have pods to carry ammunitions or can additional pods be added if at all a need arises to use these trainer aircrafts on active duty ?

I did read in one of the books on the Indo-Pak Wars that the IAF used its Harvard trainers in the light ground attack role especially for operations in the Kashmir valleys. The PAF too employed their Harvards in the same role.

The twin seat trainer version of the Hunter (T.Mk.66) was employed by the IAF in combat( CAS/ ground attack role) and the crew of one such Hunter were even credited with a maneuver kill on a PAF F-86 in the 1971 war. A well know and specific example of Hunter trainers firing their weapons in anger is with No. 122 ad-hoc Sqdn who deployed couple of Hunter trainers along side Single seat Hunter F.Mk.56s for use against Pakistani armor during the Battle of Longewala.

[panamera13]

Do we know which aircrafts were used by IAF to bomb Aizwal on March 5th 1966?

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by panamera13

Do we know which aircrafts were used by IAF to bomb Aizwal on March 5th 1966?

2 Dassault Ouragan and 2 Hawker Hunters or 4 Ouragans not sure which combination. This was from 5th to 13th March 1966. A big big mistake by Mrs IG when what the people of Mizoram wanted was a separate state {from Assam} and a higher degree of recognition as hill peoples and less condescension from the Indian Govt. They had a lot of help & weapons from China which then like now was intent of pulling the NE away from the India republic. But this one act destroyed the sentiments of the ordinary folks to a point that the Mizo battle continued for another 15+ years. The same Govt that a mere 3.5 years earlier did not have the courage or good military sense to allow the IAF to support the Army in the Indo-China war of 1962 was willing to use air power against its own citizens. IMHO the saddest day in the annals of the otherwise proud and deserving IAF.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Dieseltuned

2. Has IAF or any other air force ever used their trainer aircrafts on active squadron duty ? Do these trainer aircrafts have pods to carry ammunitions or can additional pods be added if at all a need arises to use these trainer aircrafts on active duty ?

Here is another example;


De Havilland Vampire T.55 [BY382] of the Fighter Training Wing, Hakimpet. This aircraft was one that took part in night operations against targets in Pakistan, operating as part of No.121 Ad-Hoc Squadron. The Ad-hoc units was formed using Instructors from the FTW and was broken up into two detachments. One dettachment operating out of Halwara and another from Srinagar. This particular aircraft was flown by the CO Wg Cdr Walter H Marshall on several operational missions. Photographed when it returned to Hakimpet in this unusual and dramatic nose art, the aircraft was cleaned up and returned to service soon after. Photograph was taken by Wg Cdr Anil "Luir" Gupta, who happened to be a Flight Cadet recovering from injuries at the FTW at that time.

I also remember seeing a photograph of a Vampire and if I remember correctly it was single seat FB.52 , that was named Pak Pattan Express during the war.

[Dieseltuned]

@SmartCat,@ads11, @skanchan95, @V.Narayan

Dear sirs,

I am humbled by the knowledge you have. I honestly did not expect my query on trainer aircrafts to be answered in such great details. This has really helped me understand things. Thank you all for your very kind inputs.

Regards
Dieseltuned

[panamera13]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

2 Dassault Ouragan and 2 Hawker Hunters or 4 Ouragans not sure which combination. This was from 5th to 13th March 1966. A big big mistake by Mrs IG when what the people of Mizoram wanted was a separate state {from Assam} and a higher degree of recognition as hill peoples and less condescension from the Indian Govt. They had a lot of help & weapons from China which then like now was intent of pulling the NE away from the India republic. But this one act destroyed the sentiments of the ordinary folks to a point that the Mizo battle continued for another 15+ years. The same Govt that a mere 3.5 years earlier did not have the courage or good military sense to allow the IAF to support the Army in the Indo-China war of 1962 was willing to use air power against its own citizens. IMHO the saddest day in the annals of the otherwise proud and deserving IAF.

This whole story has been downplayed and I wasn't even aware of it till recently, good to know about the background and more information on this. Very tragic sequence of events and looks like there was more to it and our beloved Gen Maneckshaw also had some inputs on resettling the people in these areas post bombing.

[dragracer567]

Kabul airlift - The humble C17 is indeed a formidable piece of equipment!

Note: This is just a short opinion write-up, I believe I won't be contributing much in terms of qualitative knowledge on the C17s

The events of the past week in Afghanistan has certainly kept us on the edge of our seats with images on our screen that we never thought (or wished) we would ever see. I will leave aside the discussion around most of these images for the sake of our mental health and sanity. But one thing that caught every military enthusiast's eye was the ubiquitous use of one particular aircraft - the C17s. The C17s are the primary airlift instrument to move people from Kabul given only military aircraft can operate there and was used by the Air Forces of the US, UK, NATO Strategic Airlift Capability (SAC), India, Canada, Australia, UAE and the Qatar (in which the Taliban leadership flew in).

Everyone knows this piece of trivia by now but the fact that this formidable aircraft during the first day of evacuation managed to evacuate a mind-blowing 823 people in a single aircraft is testament to how versatile this machine is and the crew must certainly be commended as well.

Traditionally, with no modifications, the C17s can apparently seat 54 people on the sidewall seats, 102 in paratrooper configuration and anywhere between 150-200 in airline configuration (I am not able to get a solid source on this one). These are the various configurations as indicated by Andy Netherwood's thread - a former RAF C17 pilot (screenshots of thread below).









In the evacuations by the Indian Air Force, I noticed that photos from the second evacuation showed people sitting in airline style seats while in the third evacuation by an IAF C17 (fourth overall since third was a C130J), the people were sitting on the floor (possibly in case more people than the seating capacity allowed needs to be evacuated). Andy Netherwood neatly sums up the thoughts of the evacuees.



Another platform that deserves praise is the A400M. A long delayed and problem-plagued platform, it has proven more than its worth in the Kabul Airlift - used by Germany, France, Spain, UK, Turkey and Belgium (ones that I know of). An image of the Luftwaffe A400M airlifting from Kabul is given below, its visible how much narrower and claustrophobic it is compared to the C17. The C130J also played a key role with atleast 3 countries - US, UK and India using this aircraft to airlift people (based on what I can find on flight radar).



Coming back to the C17s, for better or worse, the iconic video of the C17 taxiing amongst a sea of desperate Afghans attempting to leave their homeland and the platform itself will be immortalized and likely will forever be associated with the Fall of Kabul, just like how the iconic Hueys taking off from the US embassy in Saigon is forever associated with Fall of Saigon.

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Kabul airlift - The humble C17 is indeed a formidable piece of equipment!

Note: This is just a short opinion write-up, I believe I won't be contributing much in terms of qualitative knowledge on the C17s
.
.
.

Coming back to the C17s, for better or worse, the iconic video of the C17 taxiing amongst a sea of desperate Afghans attempting to leave their homeland and the platform itself will be immortalized and likely will forever be associated with the Fall of Kabul, just like how the iconic Hueys taking off from the US embassy in Saigon is forever associated with Fall of Saigon.

A very apt summation of the invaluable role played by the C-17 in this whole Afghanistan fracas. On another note, as has been repeated multiple times on this thread, this just goes on to underline the immense value that aircrafts like the C-17 or the Y-20 provide in terms of strategic airlift capabilities. The paradigm shift it has bought to the logistical capabilities of the Armed Forces has been witnessed by everyone in the on-going Chinese standoff up north. However, I reckon that the IAF has recovered a lot of its initial investment in the C-17 by undertaking such missions like these and other HADR operations alone. As India's stature in the globe rises, more such missions will expected of the Indian Armed Forces by the Indian population as well as the global population.

China has already attained indigenous capabilities in this sphere with the Xi'an Y-20. With the C-17 production line closed, India's best option would be to embark on an indigenous large transport aircraft that would be benchmarked against the C-17 Globe Master 3. If a truly indigenous approach is unfeasible, then a collaboration of international allies/partners with similar requirements ought to be explored.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Kabul airlift - The humble C17 is indeed a formidable piece of equipment!

Most of these aircraft have palletised interiors allowing rapid modular set up for differing roles. In the desperate images we've seen of the C-17s jam packed, what the crews have resorted to is essentially lashing bungee cords to attachment points and getting people to use these to hold onto. More worryingly, with hundreds crammed inside, the solitary loo wouldn't stand a chance. Thus you've seen photos of USAF C-17s in particular with plastic sheeting spread over the floor as it's become clear that many of these poor Afghans have relieved themselves where they sit, and cleaning out the cabin floor would otherwise be a hellish chore on top of the already difficult circumstances.

See: https://twitter.com/AhMukhtar/status...ation-in-kabul
Source

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

On another note, as has been repeated multiple times on this thread, this just goes on to underline the immense value that aircrafts like the C-17 or the Y-20 provide in terms of strategic airlift capabilities.

Indeed, I always have to reiterate that the true strength of the US military isn't in the near endless budget or their bleeding edge tech but in their mind boggling logistical reach. Pretty much anywhere on the planet, Uncle Sam can bring his forces to bear at little to no notice, and that is a stupendous capability (case in point, look at how rapidly the vaunted SOAR were able to deploy assets such as their specialised Black Hawks, CH-47s and Little Birds to Kabul within days). The impetus the PLA gave to the Y-20 is testament to this reality, similarly the fact that the PLA has explored deals with Antonov to license produce the An-124, and even possible resurrect the An-225!

China has already attained indigenous capabilities in this sphere with the Xi'an Y-20. With the C-17 production line closed, India's best option would be to embark on an indigenous large transport aircraft that would be benchmarked against the C-17 Globe Master 3. If a truly indigenous approach is unfeasible, then a collaboration of international allies/partners with similar requirements ought to be explored.

I've mentioned before, nearly all C-17 users kicked themselves when they tried to call Boeing's bluff when it came to the shuttered production line. Now they can only rue the cost of that brinkmanship as the C-17 reminds users daily of its worth in weight of gold. A clean sheet large transport design is a lot more complicated than it can first seem. One need only look at not just the travails of the Y-20 programme (with the entire might of the Chinese military industrial complex behind it), but the A-400M. In the case of the latter it's not as if you could argue the developer is new to such a programme, with the A-400M development team have tremendous cumulative experience. Even on a smaller scale, look at the problems that have blighted Embraer's C-390 programme. For now India's only option is to hope nothing unfortunate happens to its C-17 fleet (and for that matter I imagine that's the case for all the users). It's hard to see what is available on the market that realistically accessible to India that is contemporary to the C-17. It might be that India will have to utilise a mix of doubling down on the Hercules and other medium sized transports to fill in any demand gap that exists for our strategic airlift capability. I believe Russia has big plans for it's Il-114 programme, but even then that would come in under the C-130 in India's airlift fleet. I'm even more skeptical about the Il-106 as there's been nary an announcement on this programme. Given the miserable luck Airbus seems to have, and the noted cost of the A-400M, it pretty becomes ruled out. Really then it's hard to see where large transports fit in then.

[fhdowntheline]

Slightly OT, but India has to think of what happened to all the investment it did in AF over the years to make it a regular democratic nation. I think in hindsight, Indian military presence should have been there on a somewhat significant scale, at least to deter the return of Taliban. India should have used air and ground forces. This may have also allowed US to hold on for some more time. I wonder what equations were going on in the strategic affairs team. Now we have a country ruled by a group that is legitimized by two of our biggest adversaries. Had we dealt with this in its infancy, it would have sent a message across Pak, China , Kashmir and others.
Carrying out evacuations, while a laudable effort, is surely not a strategic aim. Had those C17s been used for troop mobilization and also a couple of squads of strike fighters, this outcome would have been avoided. We should have projected our military power at the right time.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

China has already attained indigenous capabilities in this sphere with the Xi'an Y-20. With the C-17 production line closed, India's best option would be to embark on an indigenous large transport aircraft that would be benchmarked against the C-17 Globe Master 3. If a truly indigenous approach is unfeasible, then a collaboration of international allies/partners with similar requirements ought to be explored.

Originally Posted by ads11

t's hard to see what is available on the market that realistically accessible to India that is contemporary to the C-17. It might be that India will have to utilise a mix of doubling down on the Hercules and other medium sized transports to fill in any demand gap that exists for our strategic airlift capability. I believe Russia has .............................. but even then that would come in under the C-130 in India's airlift fleet. I'm even more skeptical about the Il-106 as there's been nary an announcement on this programme. Given the miserable luck Airbus seems to have, and the noted cost of the A-400M, it pretty becomes ruled out. Really then it's hard to see where large transports fit in then.

This thought process is indeed true, not just for India but also the various other US allies who depend on the C17 - most of them would've loved the option to buy the C17s at a later stage. The important of a strategic lifter is indeed telling considering that even small Gulf countries like UAE and Qatar have procured 8 (as many as the UK) while Kuwait has 2.

There are certainly no immediate options while there is not as much appetite for capital investment on large Russian made assets susceptible to Western sanctions, lack of spares, delayed deliveries and poor serviceability. But in the longer term, the Americans themselves will eventually need to replace their C17s into the 2040s and this is something the Indians can piggyback on, offcourse assuming that the US hasn't declined by then and the Indian economy has grown significantly (not a given, considering the trend since 2017-18). I doubt we would be able to make one on our own since Strategic airlifters have only been developed by countries having experience building airliners - US, Europe and Russia while China used their enormous resources to make one for themselves - the resources which we will lack even in the 2030s given the rather average economic growth we are seeing.

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

I think in hindsight, Indian military presence should have been there on a somewhat significant scale, at least to deter the return of Taliban. India should have used air and ground forces. This may have also allowed US to hold on for some more time. I wonder what equations were going on in the strategic affairs team. Now we have a country ruled by a group that is legitimized by two of our biggest adversaries. Had we dealt with this in its infancy, it would have sent a message across Pak, China , Kashmir and others.

I will have to politely disagree on this. I doubt an Indian military presence could succeed when the Americans - the world's largest superpower with all their NATO allies couldn't. Perhaps the Indians might've been more understanding of the local culture, importance of tribes, ethnicities etc. that the American blatantly ignored but I doubt it would've made any difference, don't forget Indian troops were part of the failed British Invasions of Afghanistan as well.

Indians have already done their part - building vital infrastructure and investing in human capital that has paid of significantly in the form of Afghan goodwill, so much so that everytime I've met an Afghan in Europe, India or the Middle East, the love and affection imparted by them solely because of my nationality is unparalleled while their hatred for our mutual neighbour who they solely blame for their current situation (not the Soviets or the West interestingly) quickly becomes evident as well. Moreover, an Indian military presence in Afghanistan would've given our mutual neighbour more of a reason to step up attacks and support even more extremist groups making the overall situation more volatile, violent and helping no one (keep in mind that one of the rationales in Rawalpindi to keep supporting the Taliban was the already minimal Indian presence there - namely the 4 consulates and infrastructure projects, showing just how insecure they are).

In the end of the day, I know for a fact that India has the goodwill of the Afghan people (more so than any of our neighbours except Bhutan) for helping them build their country - the goodwill that Pakistan will never have. We shall see how the two of our strongest adversaries can survive in Afghanistan without the goodwill of the Afghan people. All we can do is write-off the $3 billion odd investments as sunk costs and keep supporting the Afghan people in international forums the same way we call out cross-border terrorism while ensuring they get atleast some access to education and healthcare. This is not our fight!

Note: I promised I'll stay OT for this discussion but oh well

[locusjag]

My niece was born in 2006. She was kept in an incubator in a room full of similarly incubated babies. The nurses used to complain to us that our niece would cry or call out with different voices and they couldn't find out which baby to tend to. What am I rambling about on this thread? Read on.

I live less than 0.5 km away from an airforce base in Chennai for 4 years now and I know exactly how those nurses felt! I would hear a different roar from the runway and rush to the terrace only to find the same old silver and yellow colored jet trainers taking off. I used to hope for a Mig or a Jaguar with an especially throaty roar; I dare not hope for a Mirage. Not anymore though. I have concluded that jet engines emit different sounds, perhaps depending on ambient weather conditions...

[PGA]

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/...792184737.html

C 17 is undoubtedly a very competent aircraft, so is IL -76 and AN-32 and was AN-12. Story above give pointers to what makes good great. But it also tethers us to a particular entity with its resultant pros and cons.

[DrPriyankT]

Electronic Warfare abilities of the Indian Armed Forces are not often discussed in any public forum by either the forces or defence journalists/experts, and not much is thankfully known of our EW warfare capabilities, as in today's battlespace, control of the electronic arena can make you a virtual God of the battlefield, as you can jam the enemies communications, command platforms, navigation capabilities and surveillance capabilities, making them fight virtually blind and deaf. In the article, whose link I am sharing, the author has made a stupendous effort in compiling the various EW capabilities of the IAF.
https://www.defencematrix.in/growler...dian-air-force

[condor]

New C-295's to replace the Avro's. 16 will be manufactured by Airbus, and the rest 40 by a consortium of Airbus and TASL (Tata)

In a major decision, the Cabinet Committee on Security on Wednesday approved the procurement of 56 C-295 medium transport aircraft for the Indian Air Force to replace its ageing Avro planes which were first inducted around 60 years ago.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/86040048.cms

https://www.rediff.com/news/report/c...f/20210909.htm