[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by abhishek46

I was wondering what really is the benefit of buying these used 90s tech fighters. Why waste time, effort and negotiation time for just a handful of old jets.

1) Immediate delivery. If you buy new planes, it will take 3 years.
2) 10 or 12 might be a small number - but if this works out, India can sign similar deals with other countries too.
3) This is Pakistan Air Force strategy. It has served them well, I might add.
4) A new aircraft (like Rafale or F16 or Gripen) has a huge learning curve (pilot training, tactics etc).
5) With Mig 29, no issues with weapons integration.
6) Can be upgraded!

[Redline6800]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Any idea when the Malaysians acquired these birds? From what I've read, a fighter aircraft has an airframe life of only 6000 to 8000 hours.

The RMAF MiGs have done only about 2000 hours - I think airframe life is 4500 hours.

So good for another 20 years @ 100 flying hours per year.

We would be better off buying more SU-30 MKIs from HAL - than buying used birds and then upgrading them in my humble opinion

[Redline6800]

Aero India 2017 was the first time the IAF brought its upgraded MiG-29s to the show

[himanshugoswami]

Originally Posted by Redline6800

Attachment 1627083

Aero India 2017 was the first time the IAF brought its upgraded MiG-29s to the show

the hump back kills the look of arguably the most beautiful bird ever produced. They should have designed conformal fuel tanks instead.

Whatever it is, you've got to hand it to the Russians. They design planes like none other. Whether the Fulcrum, or the flanker or now the upcoming PAK FA- these birds are far prettier than their western counterparts, i.e. the Falcon, Eagle or Raptor.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

If they can be bought for cheap, all well & good. Other than an IFR probe, externally they are same as the IAF's MiG-29Bs. The MiG-29Ns can be absorbed into existing Fulcrum squadrons (28, 47 & 223) after upgrading them to IAF's 29UPG standards.

Well said. These kinds of purchases are force top ups. Basically to ensure we have enough maintenance reserves and combat reserves to give the operational strength real meaning and attrition depth

Originally Posted by smartcat

Any idea when the Malaysians acquired these birds? From what I've read, a fighter aircraft has an airframe life of only 6000 to 8000 hours.

@ V.Narayan
When an airframe gets old, does the whole aircraft need to be junked?

The airframe is the part of the aircraft that with proper care ages the slowest. Some of our Sepecat Jaguars are over 37 years old. In todays designs the avionics and engines and landing gears can be changed with ease and those are the big pieces that need modernization or replacement. These components need replacement or a deep overhaul (factory rebuild) long before the airframe is no longer usable in fast-low configuration flying. When the airframe gets old finally the engine, landing gear, ejector seat, radar, chaff launchers, many of the cockpit displays, stand alone ECM suites, guns can all be removed refurbished and used in other airframes. Even flaps and ailerons get used! It's done commonly. Our Mig-29's are about 26 to 29 years old and I guess can fly on for another 8 to 10 years.

Originally Posted by abhishek46

I was wondering what really is the benefit of buying these used 90s tech fighters.
Why waste time, effort and negotiation time for just a handful of old jets.

Good question. They are being bought to shore up existing active fleet strength in a manner that is cost effective and quick as smartcat puts it below. A '90s technology fighter is not old or dated. It is still very lethal. Our Mig-29s had Beyond Visual Range interception capability even in the 1990s. Just like a car race does not go to the driver with the latest car aerial warfare does not always favour the latest aircraft or technology. And these machines will be upgraded, as skanchan95 says, to the UPG configuration. There is also the 'look east' foreign policy under PM Modi to build bridges with ASEAN and East Asia countries.

Originally Posted by smartcat

1) Immediate delivery. If you buy new planes, it will take 3 years.
2) 10 or 12 might be a small number - but if this works out, India can sign similar deals with other countries too.
3) This is Pakistan Air Force strategy. It has served them well, I might add.
4) A new aircraft (like Rafale or F16 or Gripen) has a huge learning curve (pilot training, tactics etc).
5) With Mig 29, no issues with weapons integration.
6) Can be upgraded!

Could not have said it better!

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by abhishek46

I was wondering what really is the benefit of buying these used 90s tech fighters. Why waste time, effort and negotiation time for just a handful of old jets.

Originally Posted by smartcat

1) Immediate delivery. If you buy new planes, it will take 3 years.
2) 10 or 12 might be a small number - but if this works out, India can sign similar deals with other countries too.
3) This is Pakistan Air Force strategy. It has served them well, I might add.
4) A new aircraft (like Rafale or F16 or Gripen) has a huge learning curve (pilot training, tactics etc).
5) With Mig 29, no issues with weapons integration.
6) Can be upgraded!

I'd like to add one more point. These planes are useful for India because IAF already operates 3 squadrons of MiG 29 and hence it makes sense logistically. We aren't buying a new aircraft type. In the past also India has purchased such odd lots of planes it already operates.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Any idea when the Malaysians acquired these birds? From what I've read, a fighter aircraft has an airframe life of only 6000 to 8000 hours.

The RMAF started inducting first of the MiG-29Ns in 1995. These were manufactured between 1988 & 1990 and had been languishing at the factory airfield in Lookhovitsy, unclaimed and unpaid for the Soviet(and since Russian) Air Force.

As a correction to my earlier post, RMAF MiG-29Ns had received some upgrade work in 1999 to enhance their fire control radars that allowed them to fire the R-77 ARH BVR missile. Another important part of the upgrade was the addition of a retractable IFR probe on the port side just below the canopy( it wasn't there when the Malaysians first got their Fulcrums in 1995).

Originally Posted by Redline6800

Attachment 1627083

Aero India 2017 was the first time the IAF brought its upgraded MiG-29s to the show

47 Squadron's MiG-29UPGs also flew during the 2017 Republic day flypast .

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

the hump back kills the look of arguably the most beautiful bird ever produced. They should have designed conformal fuel tanks instead.

Agreed. It spoilt the looks of a good looking fighter, much like what adding CFTs to F-16s did.

Originally Posted by directinjection

I'd like to add one more point. These planes are useful for India because IAF already operates 3 squadrons of MiG 29 and hence it makes sense logistically. We aren't buying a new aircraft type. In the past also India has purchased such odd lots of planes it already operates.

Yeah attrition replacements after the 1965 war included 2nd hand refurbished Hunter F.Mk.56As from UK and Sea Hawk Mk.100 & 101s from Germany. The last such purchase probably was MiG-21U/UM trainers from Romania and Sea Harrier T.Mk.4 trainers from the UK.

I felt the govt let go a wonderful opportunity when those Qatari AF Mirage-2000-5EDA/DDAs were up for sale. IAF's upgraded Mirage 2000I/TIs are now closer or even more capable than French AF Mirage 2000-5s and the Qatari Mirages would have been grade replacements for M2K airframes lost in accidents.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

It spoilt the looks of a good looking fighter, much like what adding CFTs to F-16s did.

OK, so you noticed that too. F16 with conformal fuel tanks looks like a cancerous growth on the airframe.



But I guess these are war machines, not participants in Concours d'Elegance!

[himanshugoswami]

Originally Posted by smartcat

OK, so you noticed that too. F16 with conformal fuel tanks looks like a cancerous growth on the airframe.

Attachment 1627331

But I guess these are war machines, not participants in Concours d'Elegance!

I remember reading a quote from a fighter pilot. Dont remember it exactly but it went something like this:
"I dont know why, but I've noticed that the prettier an aircraft is, the easier it is to fly"

Case in point- the beauty below

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

I remember reading a quote from a fighter pilot. Dont remember it exactly but it went something like this:
"I dont know why, but I've noticed that the prettier an aircraft is, the easier it is to fly"

I guess there is a link between aerodynamics and 'beauty'. So now I know by USAF chose Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning instead of Boeing's offering -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-32



To many, the Boeing looks like this -

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

Dont remember it exactly but it went something like this:
"I dont know why, but I've noticed that the prettier an aircraft is, the easier it is to fly"

Originally Posted by smartcat

I guess there is a link between aerodynamics and 'beauty'.

That was Marcel Dassault who said, "If an airplane looks right, it will fly well". Ahh Dassault, one of my favourite aeronautical greats. Incidentally he and Mikhail Gurevich (of MiG fame)were class mates at Supaero the French institute for higher engineering in aeronautics in the pre-World War I era.

[Redline6800]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

I felt the govt let go a wonderful opportunity when those Qatari AF Mirage-2000-5EDA/DDAs were up for sale. IAF's upgraded Mirage 2000I/TIs are now closer or even more capable than French AF Mirage 2000-5s and the Qatari Mirages would have been grade replacements for M2K airframes lost in accidents.

Bang on!

The IAF Mirage 2000T/TI also shares the same weapons as the Rafale in the MICA and Scalp stand-off cruise missile.

The Mirage 2000 is a fabulous airplane - the new upgrade transforms the aircraft at a humongous cost.

I hope we dont buy the old RMAF MiGs - the 10 year major overhaul will easily cost about USD 20 million and an upgrade would cost another 10-15 million - not to mention the time the babu's will take to clear an additional upgrade.

The major overhaul costs for the Su-30 MKI are mentioned on the Livefist blog somewhere.

[Redline6800]

Some pics of the French beauty for your viewing pleasure

pics are courtesy Dassault Aviation

If she looks good - she flies well

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Incidentally he and Mikhail Gurevich (of MiG fame)were class mates at Supaero

The MiG designer was Mikoyan Gurevich.

Mikhail was the helicopter guy who designed the Mi series helicopters.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by directinjection

The MiG designer was Mikoyan Gurevich.

Mikhail was the helicopter guy who designed the Mi series helicopters.

Sorry to correct you. Artem Mikoyan and Mikhail Gurevich were the two partners of the MiG Bureau who formed it together in the late 1930s and their first design was the MiG-1. Sometime in 1970 after the death of Mikoyan, Gurevich fell out of favour of the Communist Party (or something like that) and the Bureau (or OKB) was henceforth called Mikoyan only.