[mpksuhas]

Came across this news today.

Personally, not so thrilled with this arm twisting.

According to an Indian Express report, the US has told India to buy the F-16 fighter jets to avoid the sanctions.

Link

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by mpksuhas

Came across this news today. Personally, not so thrilled with this arm twisting.

1) When a country like India makes a defence deal, it is strategic in nature. Meaning, you just don't buy machinery - you buy influence too. One good example is Saudi Arabia's $100 billion defence deal with United States.

2) There is always some arm-twisting involved when dealing with US or Russia.

3) India has a large trade surplus with United States. Buying US defence machinery will shrink the surplus and probably keep Trump happy enough. Hopefully, he will not to fiddle with visas for Indian IT professionals.

4) F-16 has only one drawback and that is its combat radius. However, Block 70 that is being offered to India has conformal fuel tanks that enhances its combat radius by 40%.

Normal F16:



F16 with CFT:



5) F-16 might be a light-weight fighter but its max payload (weapons and/or external fuel) is pretty decent at 7 tonnes

6) It might a 4th generation fighter but IAF doesn't need to have the latest, most expensive and shiniest toys.

7) Lockheed Martin is anyway procuring wings for all F16s from India
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/04/lock...-in-india.html

Only fly-in-the-ointment is that Pakistan has been operating F16s for decades now.

[Czarcarsm]

Originally Posted by mpksuhas

Came across this news today.

Personally, not so thrilled with this arm twisting.



Link

This is more than arm twisting. The intention of US is to kill our LCA Tejas. F16 with conformal fuel tanks will not be as nimble as LCA but with better avionics and range will mean, you no longer need the LCA. Both the current Mark 1 and the in-development Mark 1A.
But the LCA Mark 2.0 will be a different beast. So the whole idea of US is not to get LCA mark 2.0 out. Kill it before it’s launch in 4 years time. If we buy F16/70 then LCA will face the same fate as Israel Lavi and probably forever kill Indian aerospace industry.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by smartcat

4) F-16 has only one drawback and that is its combat radius. However, Block 70 that is being offered to India has conformal fuel tanks that enhances its combat radius by 40%.

Interesting, never seen this before. What does that do to its performance, in terms of speed?

Jeroen

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Interesting, never seen this before. What does that do to its performance, in terms of speed?

Not much difference apparently, according to Lockheed Martin. Even if there is some difference, it is likely to be much better than lugging around drop tanks.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article781.html

"The flying qualities of the F-16 with CFTs are essentially unchanged when compared to a non-CFT equipped airplane," said Stephen W. Barter, chief F-16 test pilot and company CFT project pilot. "For most combat flight conditions, it's as if the CFTs are not even there. The surest way for me to tell if CFTs are installed is to look over my shoulder."

"The CFTs have very little adverse affect on the F-16's renowned performance," said Maj. Timothy S. McDonald, U.S. Air Force project pilot for CFT testing at Eglin. "The aircraft retains its full 9-g capability and flight envelope with the CFTs installed. The drag impact is very small - less than one percent in combat configuration at cruise conditions."

Israeli Air Force & UAE Air Force F-16s have CFTs:.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by smartcat

3) India has a large trade surplus with United States. Buying US defence machinery will shrink the surplus and probably keep Trump happy enough. Hopefully, he will not to fiddle with visas for Indian IT professionals...

I'd like to echo smartcat. The trade surplus angle is certainly something I bet would appeal to a business minded administration like Trumps. Furthermore we can see just how much business is prioritised in this current White House (one need only look at how the Khashoggi case is being handled).

The Israeli's love a conformal fuel tank. They've been using them for years [see:https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/wh...ic-1712746714]. Much to Pierre Sprey's dismay I should imagine, the IAF fleet probably look like a bunch of gym junkies compared to the lithe original spec F-16. I don't think CFT's impact speed too much, in fact I'll wager they're slightly better in that regard than having a traditional drop tank.

I'm not surprised the US is using the sanctions as a potential window to get F-16 orders in. I think arm twisting of this sort is pretty par for the course. But I had an interesting thought. If Lockheed indeed moves its entire F-16 production line to India, yes it might nix whatever slim prayers the Tejas has been coasting on. But let's say India, logically, insists on in country maintenance support. What say India insists that it should be the sole maintenance hub outside the states. The PAF would sure be in a pickle. Obviously they could still then only be left with the option to send their jets stateside for parts and repair with the potential they might end up stuck there if relations continue to wallow. I just thought having the rights to at least total parts manufacturing would be a pretty handy stick to have in a totally obtuse sense. I mean the PAF could then rationalise their decision to go all in on the JF-17 Thunder, which wouldn't come with the potential of being held hostage for parts..though that would be pretty ironic considering that it would mean we had given up on our own domestic hope..Still it's a handy thought experiment.

I wonder if given the US focus on mid terms and the whole Khashoggi incident, if India might be more prudent low balling till after both those things blow over and then looking at how to avoid any sanctions in earnest or if now would be a good time to press our case given how distracted the White House will naturally be.

[Stratosphere]

Originally Posted by ads11

But I had an interesting thought. If Lockheed indeed moves its entire F-16 production line to India, yes it might nix whatever slim prayers the Tejas has been coasting on. But let's say India, logically, insists on in country maintenance support. What say India insists that it should be the sole maintenance hub outside the states. The PAF would sure be in a pickle. Obviously they could still then only be left with the option to send their jets stateside for parts and repair with the potential they might end up stuck there if relations continue to wallow. I just thought having the rights to at least total parts manufacturing would be a pretty handy stick to have in a totally obtuse sense. I mean the PAF could then rationalise their decision to go all in on the JF-17 Thunder, which wouldn't come with the potential of being held hostage for parts..though that would be pretty ironic considering that it would mean we had given up on our own domestic hope..Still it's a handy thought experiment.

A great thought there. It was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw this news. I say, even if we lose the Tejas, we should take this deal and use the manufacturing competency we gain for the future AMCA.

We’ll have resources to get the AMCA off the ground while also putting our primary adversary in a pickle.

[Czarcarsm]

Originally Posted by ads11

I'd like to echo smartcat.



The Israeli's love a conformal fuel tank. They've been using them for years. I don't think CFT's impact speed too much, in fact I'll wager they're slightly better in that regard than having a traditional drop tank.



I'm not surprised the US is using the sanctions as a potential window to get F-16 orders in. I think arm twisting of this sort is pretty par for the course. But I had an interesting thought. If Lockheed indeed moves its entire F-16 production line to India, yes it might nix whatever slim prayers the Tejas has been coasting on. But let's say India, logically, insists on in country maintenance support. What say India insists that it should be the sole maintenance hub outside the states. The PAF would sure be in a pickle.

Drop tanks are dropped to improve performance, as you may know it already. I would think the General Dynamics saying conformal tanks have no performance impact needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. I remember reading how it reduced the agility in close combat. The original F16 is still the king in the F16 series. Pakistan has the newer block 52 as well, with more advanced electronics etc.

Great thought on owing the full maintenance support as well. But the PAF F16 are very old and beaten to death. They may have very little airframe life left. The newer and lesser F16/block 52 may have more life. So not much strategic advantage there. But I guess overall it will be a great learning experience for the nascent Private sector aircraft manufacturers in India. That could be just what the doctor ordered.

In fact we could change the flight control s/w on F16/block 70. It was done in the past. We had loaded our earlier LCA flight control s/w on an F16 before the sanctions hit ! The rumor is that F16 flew better with LCA control laws !

[V.Narayan]

https://www.businesstoday.in/top-sto...ry/300943.html

With the Supreme Court clearing the Rafale Deal I hope things will move ahead at least with the truncated 36 aircraft transaction and maybe one day with a larger number with local production/assembly.

Picture Source: Wikipedia

[stewie]

Came across Team-BHP in a Hushkit article about the Indian Mig-25R fleet.
https://hushkit.net/2018/12/12/lonel...-foxbat-pilot/

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by stewie

Came across Team-BHP in a Hushkit article about the Indian Mig-25R fleet.
https://hushkit.net/2018/12/12/lonel...-foxbat-pilot/

The article was very interesting. I plan to put excerpts of it on our own MiG-25 thread. Where is the mention of Team BHP in this article, Could not find it.

[stewie]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The article was very interesting. I plan to put excerpts of it on our own MiG-25 thread. Where is the mention of Team BHP in this article, Could not find it.

They filched the pressure suit pic from your MiG-25 thread
I probably should've posted it there in the first place!

[avishar]

I came across this amazing story about how the B-24 Liberator bombers came about to be inducted in the IAF, and their history in the IAF. I was surprised to learn that IAF once flew these huge American bombers, and while looking for some more information found this.

The Indian Air Force has such a long and rich history with so many different aircraft types fielded and the countless stories from the many wars it has been part of. I wish they were better known just like in other countries where a healthy circulation of aviation-related media and re-telling of war stories ensures that the bravery and ingenuity of the past is not forgotten.

Original Link

This story was uploaded on BharatRakhak.com, a well-known defense website/forum for the defense hobbyists. The other India Air Force aircraft histories on that website is worth going through! They are very rare first person or personal accounts and such information is hard to find on public domain.

India's Reclaimed Bombers: The B-24 Liberator
- Gp Capt. Kapil Bhargava

Independent India's First War (1947-48)

During the partition of India and the creation of Pakistan, rulers of over 500 princely states were required to choose to accede to either India or Pakistan. For most of the princes the choice was obvious, one way or the other, but one ruler, Maharaja Hari Singh of Kashmir, delayed choosing, in the hope of becoming an independent country. On October 20, 1947 so-called Pukhtoon tribal raiders, in reality mostly Pakistani army personnel, invaded Kashmir and after much looting and killing reached the outskirts of Srinagar. Only then did Maharaja Hari Singh ask India for help. He got it only after he signed the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India. The Indian Air Force (IAF) went into action and its Douglas Dakotas airlifted much-needed men and materiel into the state. IAF Spitfires and Tempests, and even Harvards, went into action in support of ground forces. Gradually the raiders were pushed back and a large part of Kashmir was recovered by India.

Make-Do Bombers aka Dakotas

At one stage of the fighting a requirement arose to bomb Pakistani positions. But there was no bomber aircraft in the IAF's inventory. Nothing daunted, the redoubtable Air Commodore Mehar Singh, DSO, the Air Officer Commanding of the operations group in Kashmir, took recourse to his favourite Dakota. Bombs were carried within the fuselage and simply pushed out of the cargo door. With no aids or methods for aiming, the crew had to guess when to roll out the bomb. This was a hit-or-miss technique in every sense, and militarily not particularly effective.

The fighting in Kashmir ended on December 31, 1948 with a UN-brokered ceasefire. But well before then the IAF had started looking for a purpose-designed bomber aircraft. The USA tried to sell B-25 Mitchells, and the UK offered some war-surplus Lancasters, but the IAF considered both types unsuitable.

Junked B-24 Liberator Bombers

Senior IAF officers remembered that a large number of Consolidated B-24 Liberators had been abandoned in the scrap yard at Chakeri airfield, Kanpur, at the end of World War II. Most of these were former Royal Air Force (RAF) aircraft, which the USA had provided under Lend-Lease terms, which stipulated that they should not fall into anyone else's hands after the war. Some of the abandoned Liberators may have originally belonged to the US Army Air Force and others to Royal Canadian Air Force. However their eventual disposal, as the huge Allied military establishment in India wound down after World War II, was the responsibility of the RAF.

B-24 Liberators in HAL after overhaul

The disposal approach taken by the RAF was to damage the aircraft to make them unusable. Bulldozers and trucks were rammed into the fuselages, which were also pierced with pickaxes. Instruments were broken and sand poured into engines. But counting the days to their return home, RAF airmen did not have their hearts in the job. IAF officers wondered if the abandoned Liberators could be salvaged to meet the IAF's bomber requirements. Their conclusion was that salvage was possible but needed specialist support. This brought Hindustan Aircraft Limited (HAL), then a large aircraft servicing organisation (and now, as Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, a full-service aircraft design and manufacturing company), into the picture.

Aircraft Overhaul at HAL

During World War II HAL had been pressed into the war effort, overhauling Allied aircraft and assembling some fighters and bombers of US origin. HAL was the first organisation authorised to overhaul Dakotas in Asia. War exigencies had also seen HAL overhaul other aircraft types such as the Consolidated PBY Catalina. These amphibian aircraft would touch down in the waters of Bellendur Tank, a lake near the southern boundary of what today has become HAL's Bangalore airfield. The Catalinas would taxi to the water's edge and then lower their wheels and climb onto cement ramps built on he shoreline. (These ramps used to be visible till the mid-60s but are now sadly buried under mud and overgrowth.) The Catalinas were then towed to the nearby HAL factory for overhaul. After flight-testing and clearance the process was repeated in reverse. At the end of World War II, the RAF handed HAL back to Indian control. At last HAL could control its own destiny. When asked about salvaging B-24s, HAL readily agreed to undertake the job.

The first problem was to get the aircraft from Kanpur, where they had been abandoned, to HAL's factory in Bangalore. The Liberators were too big to be transported by the road or rail links of the time, so the only way was to fly them. Even before undergoing full refurbishment, the Liberators had first to be made flyable enough to undertake a single ferry flight of almost 1500 kilometres. Once they arrived in Bangalore, HAL could undertake definitive refurbishment, making them fully airworthy and fit for long-term service.

HAL sent a team to Kanpur under the leadership of Mr Yelappa. He and his men surveyed the junked hulks, identified those aircraft that could be made flyable, and undertook temporary repairs by cannibalising parts from others. Some help in materials was obtained from the IAF Depot at Kanpur. But the job was done entirely by HAL personnel.

As aircraft were prepared for the ferry, a few B-24 qualified American pilots were contacted to undertake the hazardous ferry flights. They demanded so much money that hiring any of them was out of the question. Finally, the Chief Test Pilot (CTP) of HAL was asked if he would take on the job. He promptly agreed, and was offered a very handsome bonus for each aircraft ferried. When he turned this down the amount was raised even more. This was also turned down. He explained that he was already paid enough by HAL and would do the job for no payment at all in the service of the nation. This intrepid Test Pilot was Jamshed Kaikobad (Jimmy) Munshi.

Jamshed Kaikobad Munshi (1920-1988)

Jimmy Munshi and his younger brother Rustam always had their gaze perpetually turned towards the sky. Their father had gifted them an aircraft of their own. The family lived in Hyderabad, where much of the pioneering flying in India had taken place, as chronicled by Mrs Anuradha Reddy in her excellent book, "Aviation in the Hyderabad Dominions". Jimmy and Rustam lived up to this local tradition. They often flew to Bombay on the pretext of picking up fuel at a lower price. What they did take in was lunch and a movie, before flying back home. They soon built up the hours required to become professional commercial pilots. Unfortunately, Rustam was killed in a flying accident in Tatanagar. But Jimmy went on to join Deccan Airways and flew DC-3s for many years. Some HAL old-timers say that it was Mr Shyama Prasad Mukherjee, then Minister for Commerce, who persuaded Jimmy to give up his lucrative airline job and join post-independence HAL as its first CTP. Apart from flight-testing various types of aircraft after overhaul, Jimmy now had the job of ferrying B-24s, temporarily patched-up by Yelappa's men, from Kanpur to Bangalore.

Far from having flown B-24s, Jimmy probably had no experience of any four-engine aircraft. The Liberators therefore were a real challenge. And he obviously relished it. His first task was to find a manual for the aircraft. In accordance with US and British practice, each aircraft should have carried its own copy of the Flight Manual. But preservation of the manuals had clearly not been a priority, when the aircraft had been abandoned at Kanpur. Jimmy rummaged around in many wrecked cockpits, sometimes finding just a few pages, and gradually assembled a workable manual. When he was ready for flight, the manual was placed in his lap and referred to as required. At take off it was handed over to one of the HAL men, usually the flight engineer, riding in the aircraft to read out checklists for each stage of flight.

Jimmy already had some familiarity with the Pratt & Whitney 1800-43 engines of the Liberators, as they came from the same family as engines of the DC-3s he had flown before. It is said that he would open full power on the four engines, and if nothing blew up, do some fast taxying to check that engines were delivering adequate power and that the brakes functioned properly. He was then off on a direct flight to Bangalore with undercarriage left down throughout. Only one flight is known to have been scary. There was a small fire in the fuselage just behind the pilot's seat. Fortunately the HAL crew was serving coffee at the time. The entire contents of the flasks were poured on the fire, to successfully put it out. A flight was described by two IAF flight cadets who hitched a ride in one of the B-24s, with no understanding of what they were getting into. Their first surprise was that the co-pilot's seat was occupied by Jimmy's wife in a fur coat. She was well prepared for the draughty and cold cabin of the B-34. As the aircraft taxied out a front windshield glass cracked. Jimmy taxied back for quick repairs. HAL's engineers put some dope on the glass, stuck fabric on it and declared the aircraft flyable. Fortunately nothing worse happened and the cadets slept all the way through to Bangalore.

Jimmy ferried a total of 42 B-24s patched-up for flying by Yelappa and his men. All the ferried B-24s were overhauled and refurbished to long-term flyable standard. Jimmy then tested and cleared them for service. According to some HAL engineers, a visiting American pilot once flew one of these aircraft and complimented HAL on the quality of work done on it. He said that the refurbished aircraft was even better than some he had flown earlier.

When the American's discovered that India had acquired serviceable Liberators there was consternation, and a suspicion that they had been bought clandestinely. They were unhappy that they had no logistic or other control on these fairly potent bombers No one could figure out who had sold them to India. An American team was invited to see what IAF and HAL were up to. The team went away satisfied that there were no underhanded dealings. Soon afterwards, very graciously, the RAF offered any help that India might need in handling the refurbished aircraft. Two experienced teams came to Poona to help convert and train IAF crews in operations on B-24s.

Liberators in Service

The IAF had its bombers at last. No 5 Squadron was equipped on November 2, 1948 with the first six Liberators delivered by HAL. Eventually the Squadron received its full contingent of 16 aircraft. No. 6 Squadron had been raised at Tiruchirapally on 1st December 1942 under the command of Mehar Singh (the same redoubtable officer who had pressed Dakotas into service as bombers in Kashmir), then a Squadron Leader. In January 1951, after having been stood down since Independence and Partition, it was re-raised and equipped with sixteen refurbished Liberators. No 16 Squadron was established with only two or three aircraft on October 15, 1951 as a Liberator-equipped training unit. No Liberators were ever used in anger.

In addition, two recovered C-87 aircraft formed No 102 Survey Flight. C-87s were modified Liberators with most of the external protrusions removed. The cabin area was meant for cargo. The C-87 was aerodynamically cleaner, and therefore about 20 knots faster, than the B-24. It was often called The Liberator Express. The C-87s were used for survey work to update old maps and produce new ones of uncharted areas. One aircraft was also employed for photographing Mount Everest.

No 5 and 16 Squadrons traded in their B-24s for the British Canberra bomber-interdictor aircraft in 1957. But the Liberators of No 6 Squadron continued flying in the task of maritime reconnaissance. Most of their aircraft were fitted with the ASV-15 radar with a retractable radome in the bay where the ball turret had originally been located. Sonobuoys and depth charges were their typical load. No 6 Squadron also participated in the takeover of the Portuguese colonies in India in 1961. It flew reconnaissance missions along the sea-lanes approaching Diu and Daman. On December 18, 1961, Liberators of No 6 Squadron dropped surrender leaflets over Goa. The Squadron also carried out maritime patrols during the 1965 Indo-Pak War. The Liberators retired from IAF service in 1968. Thus the Indian Air Force was the world's last air force to fly the type.

Rocking Parliament and Expedition to Mt Everest

In the spring of 1953, the IAF decided to display its prowess through a public Fire Power Demonstration. The (now abandoned) firing range south of Delhi at Tilpat near Faridabad was the venue. One of the display highlights was to be a demonstration of the awesome power of stick bombing from Liberators. Formations of B-24s were to drop sticks of 500-pound bombs in a show of carpet-bombing. During a rehearsal with live bombs the delivery was perfect. Most of the bombs fell in a straight line. The trouble was that the line pointed straight to Parliament House in Delhi. Although it was several miles away, because of a fortuitous combination of timing and geological factors, the edifice shook as if a major earthquake had hit it. Most of the MPs ran out, displaying a turn of speed not seen during today's walkouts. When the cause was discovered the Prime Minister, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, was livid and wanted the exercise cancelled. The Chief of Air Staff was soon on the mat. But the Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister came to his rescue. He explained to the PM that his staff had studied the event very thoroughly all night. They had concluded that the repetition of a similar occurrence was not possible. Pt Nehru accepted this view and permitted the final Fire Power Demonstration to go ahead. Since high expectations had been raised by the radio and press, large crowds of people tried to see the show. Extensive traffic jams resulted, despite the relatively small number of cars in Delhi at the time. Many people never got anywhere near the Tilpat Range. They had to be content with only hearing the noise of the exploding bombs.

When in the summer of 1953 Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay were about to reach the summit of Mount Everest, it was decided to take aerial pictures of them planting flags on the summit. A Liberator Express of 102 Survey Flight was launched, on the day of Hillary and Tenzing's summit attempt, with several press photographers on board. Since the aircraft would have had to climb to nearly 29,000 feet (8.85 km), oxygen for everyone on board was essential. The C-87s were not designed for passengers. Hence oxygen masks had to be passed from hand to hand among the photographers. This gave each of them a chance to draw a few long breaths and hand them over to the next person. After the C-87 was well on its way, there was a sudden fear that the thunderous noise of its four engines could start a dangerous avalanche. Just in time, the aircraft was recalled, much to the disappointment of the photographers on board. Pictures of Mount Everest were taken on a later flight, once the expedition was clear, and some stunning shots were published around the world. The C-87 variant of the IAF's Liberators was responsible for achieving this.


Surviving Liberators

After their retirement from IAF, many B-24s were sold for scrap. When the news spread round the world, many requests were received for aircraft to be sold or gifted to museums. Today five Liberators resurrected from Kanpur are known to be in museums in the USA, Canada and the UK.

One of these, at the Collings Foundation of the USA, was operated as a flying museum. But for the hard work and dedication of HAL's Yelappa and his team, the CTP, and its personnel involved in overhauls, the world would have been poorer by more than half the surviving samples of this famous WW II aircraft.

There are photographs in that article, but since they are marked as from the author's private collection, I am not sure if it would be correct to re-upload it here.

Some photos from Google

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by avishar

I came across this amazing story about how the B-24 Liberator bombers came about to be inducted in the IAF, and their history in the IAF. I was surprised to learn that IAF once flew these huge American bombers, and while looking for some more information found this.

Thank you for sharing this delightful narration. It is indeed true. In fact the IAF was the last Air Force to fly this world beater and it gave us some real muscle in the fragile days of last 1940s and early 1950s. Munshi and Co. were offered a very handsome sum to ferry the incomplete and barely patched up aircraft from Kanpur [where they were stored] to Bangalore which they turned down and performed the service for the nation. Quite a refreshing contrast from our attitudes today.

The HAL of 1948 could rebuild what was then one of the 3 most complex bombers in the world. The HAL of today cannot get Su-30MKIs out on time. Sorry for the rant.

In the 1965 Indo-Pak war a B-24 was sent off by the IAF to recce the sea around the Pakistani Makarran Coast with the hope of locating the enemy fleet. The Indian Navy was sailing towards Karachi with the expectation of a decisive engagement. The B-24's sole radio packed up and the aircraft opted to return back to base as without a radio there was no way of communicating its findings to the fleet 10,000 feet below. The IAF did not think about putting a replacement aircraft up there! It was later learnt that the two naval squadrons had passed by each other (although not within visual or surface radar range) in the night. The IN felt if the IAF had done a better job they could have engaged the Pak fleet. This incident eventually led to the long range maritime recce aircrafts being moved to the Navy finally in 1974 or 1975.


B-24 being gifted to the US Air Force by the IAF c.1968/1969 /Photo Source Late Group Capt Kapil Bhargava


B-24 in IAF service / Photo Source IAF

[jraj]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The HAL of 1948 could rebuild what was then one of the 3 most complex bombers in the world. The HAL of today cannot get Su-30MKIs out on time. Sorry for the rant.

Sir , isn’t it pushing it too far comparing the 84th air depot with the HAL of today ?

Moreso ,when the aircraft built today by HAL has a mix of Russian and Israeli avionics .