[locusjag]

Originally Posted by Maveryq

I would suggest that you read the entire post from Bharat Rakshak Forum as it would help you to understand the scenario that developed.

Rather, this one condensed and of course, brilliant, post would serve as a clean read - https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/vi...=1680#p2337749

A certain Mr.Gupta has much to answer for!

[SmartCat]

Moderator Note: Let's avoid discussing the political angle. Thanks!

[Maveryq]

Originally Posted by ashroy_6

Regarding Gen Gaffoon statement, I don't buy the theory that it was a mistake. It is impossible for Pakistani army not to know the identity of the hospitalised pilot. We are talking here about the TOP general of a countries army making a statement to the media. I am sure every details must be doubly checked before been presented to the media.

It's very convenient thing to brush up the whole issue by saying that it was a mistake by the general, what if it was not a mistake????

Our side also did not really cover themselves with glory. The defence minister making statements about the PAK F16 pilot being the PAF Air Marshal's son was a case in point.

Let's see what turns up eventually.

[ashroy_6]

Originally Posted by locusjag

Rather, this one condensed and of course, brilliant, post would serve as a clean read - https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/vi...=1680#p2337749

A certain Mr.Gupta has much to answer for!

Brilliant article but again all the technicality is lost because of lack of proof and logic.
Everyone know that MkI-30 is a superior jet, but how come when multiple Pakistani jets were firing multiple missiles at our planes, what were our guys up to????? The article suggest that even though we had superior jets that day our pilots were still dodging the incoming missiles (successfully) and not a single missile was fired from Su MKI-30 in retaliation???? WHYYYY. As far as in am concerned, any pilot can fire if he is fired upon.

Isn't the purpose of BVR missile defeated if our pilots were still waiting for visual confirmation before firing. I don't see any logic in this.

The only claimed missile fired, was from Abhinandan's Mig which took down a F-16. Again no proof.

Sir, at the end of the day our jet was shot down and our pilot was taken as a prisoner of war. PERIOD.
Pakis showed the world the proof, we Indians didn't.

Now all the Indian experts can claim whatever they want, but it definitely doesn't answers many important questions.

Just my 2 cents.

[locusjag]

^ I personally wish that our folks wouldn't question our defence forces as a whole, even if my definition of the defence forces includes the defence minister.

When the Pakistanis lost the Kargil war, they also lost their entire Northern Light Infantry unit on the barren peaks and slopes. They refused to even acknowledge their own dead, an entire infantry unit's dead soldiers - just because it would poke holes in their propaganda about the entire war being a freedom fight. That's the peak of misinformation and propaganda. That's the kind of thing our forces won't do. (There have even been insinuations that since the Pakistani NLI was mostly manned by Shia soldiers, the Sunni majority Pakistani establishment had no remorse in disowning them.)

My rambling point is that - trust is all we need. Our track record so far is one of honesty, professionalism and humane treatment of their PoWs. Our enemy's track record is appalling. And it seems they have wired enough money to journalists on our soil to peddle their jaundiced points of view.

So what if we didn't pack a full punch when the enemy came knocking? So what if we don't have proof to show for everything we said we did?

Most of us are operating on "he said" and "she said" about the events of the Balakot strike and its aftermath. Any evidence presented is poked at either by jaundiced or loving eyes. But all we really need to do is trust and hope that we maintain our willingness to alter the status quo of us helplessly suffering suicide bombings and 26/11 styled attacks again and again. I'm not criticizing those who're curious to learn about what happened, because i'm one of them as well...

[Maveryq]

Originally Posted by locusjag

Any evidence presented is poked at either by jaundiced or loving eyes.

Completely agree. We shall know in due course of time.

[ashroy_6]

No organisation or government should be above scrutiny. That's what differentiate Indians and Pakistanis, that here in India, we can question any institution unlike our neighbours where everything is controlled by army.

Isn't that the beauty of democracy. Just labelling people who questions the govt/ army as anti nationals or on enemies payrolls is not done.

Each and every institution is answerable to the citizens of the country. In this age when the whole world revolves around accountability why should a freehand be given to a particular institution????That's the problem with us that we are all too trusting.

I personally would have been happy if the govt would have kept the real picture in front of the public. So what if we lost..there's always a second chance. My worry is that the integrity of our armed forces shouldn't be compromised because of the political agenda of our political parties.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by ashroy_6

That's the problem, how come the airforce didn't come <SNIP> whole issue by saying that it was a mistake by the general, what if it was not a mistake????

Originally Posted by ashroy_6

Brilliant article but again all the technicality is lost because of lack of proof a<SNIP>
Just my 2 cents.

You make valid points. Definitely points to ponder over from a neutral point of view.

Originally Posted by ashroy_6

Regarding Mi-17, yes the timing was very suspicious. The death toll was increased from initial 3 to 5 later(not sure about it though). Moreover, kindly find how many pilots died in the heli crash. I don't want to speculate as I myself am not sure not there were definitely more than 2. Kindly join the dots.

I think there was just a fraction of attention given to the crew of that crash, which was sad. Anyway, these are the IAF personnel who were on board that ill-fated Mi-17V5
Squadron Leader Siddharath Vashisth
Squadron Leader Ninad Mandavgane
Sergeant Vikrant Sehrawat
Corporal Pankaj Kumar
Corporal Deepak Pandey
Kumar Pandey

The seventh casualty was a civilian who was at the spot where the chopper crashed.

Sqdn Ldr Vashisth received commendation for his role in rescue ops in Kerala floods last year and his wife is also in the IAF. The wife of Sqdn Ldr Mandavgane made an emotional appeal on TV to stop mad dance of war because it is them who pay the ultimate price, not us and definitely not the politicians.

Originally Posted by ashroy_6

It's very convenient thing to brush up the whole issue by saying that it was a mistake by the general, what if it was not a mistake????

So what are you pointing to? F-16 crash or a kill that the Pakis are claiming?

Originally Posted by locusjag

^ I personally wish that our folks wouldn't question our defence forces as a whole, even if my definition of the defence forces includes the defence minister.

I don't think anyone in their right minds ever means to question our armed forces. It is election season so it is very convenient to paint it that way. I remember this dialogue from the novel and later, movie - Hunt for the Red October, where Senator Pelt says "Listen I'm a politician, which means I'm a cheat and a liar and when I am not kissing babies, I am stealing their lollipops." They twist and turn narratives as they see fit.

However, the fact still remains the RM and later the FM goofed up big time about the supposedly dead PAF pilot. The RM's statement was based on what? Some social media rumour? The responsible chair that she occupies demands more responsibility in making statements. If not, what is the difference between the RM and Maj Gen Ghafoor AKA Baghdad Bob v2.0?

[vikasshu]

Originally Posted by locusjag

Rather, this one condensed and of course, brilliant, post would serve as a clean read - https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/vi...=1680#p2337749

A certain Mr.Gupta has much to answer for!

This was an amazing read Locusjag. I learned a lot from that authors long post.

Originally Posted by ashroy_6

Brilliant article but again all the technicality is lost because of lack of proof and logic.
Just my 2 cents.

I think this is where your answer is hidden. From same article. "Coming to the next gem in his article, he states that PAF F-16s creatively surprised the IAF fleet and fired AMRAAMs on the Su-30MKIs. This apparently was some sort of victory for the PAF which we should all be collectively worried about.

Basic 101 tactics in fighter school, available via 100's of accounts over the years, clearly teaches pilots to not be an Arnold in Terminator (spraying belts of ammo) but fire only when the enemy is in your definite kill zone, otherwise be prepared to waste your valuable missile rounds. The author makes a virtue of the PAF pilots lack of skill or fire discipline in having launched multiple AMRAAM rounds without merit. Now reverting back to the author's insightful assertion that the SU-30MKIs were outgunned and outranged I want to paraphrase what AVM A. Subramaniam (Retd) wrote in his detailed account, which of course he cannot openly credit as that of the IAF's but subsequent accounts all bear out how closely the actual events mimicked the details mentioned in the article."

Originally Posted by ashroy_6

No
I personally

You are right no one denies 'Arriving at useful answers first involves asking right question'. But in the garb of questioning if people try to stall processes or play dirty games that is when problem starts. The said article which generated some many posts here, tires to do that. And I think that is why the anger. Since mods have requested to avoid political discussion I am not going there, there is a long history of compromising integrity of armed forces.

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by ashroy_6

No organisation or government should be above scrutiny. That's what differentiate Indians and Pakistanis, that here in India, we can question any institution unlike our neighbours where everything is controlled by army.

Isn't that the beauty of democracy. Just labelling people who questions the govt/ army as anti nationals or on enemies payrolls is not done.

Each and every institution is answerable to the citizens of the country.

Originally Posted by skanchan95

I don't think anyone in their right minds ever means to question our armed forces. It is election season so it is very convenient to paint it that way. The fact still remains the RM and later the FM goofed up big time about the supposedly dead PAF pilot. The RM's statement was based on what? Some social media rumour? The responsible chair that she occupies demands more responsibility in making statements. If not, what is the difference between the RM and Maj Gen Ghafoor AKA Baghdad Bob v2.0?

Far be it from me to stop people from questioning democratically elected leaders. The problem IMO with directing attacks at the Defence Minister is that such attacks then proceed on a slippery slope that besmirches the forces too. Our members won't make that mistake, I know, but it is a slippery slope on which one's fingers may slip and lead one down on the keyboard.

It is a grey area where the MoD is concerned and lines do get blurred; if one Defence Minister sits on acquisition files where not even so much as replacement batteries for submarines are ordered, it's the Navy's men who burn/drown in a submarine. They are inextricably linked. This is a tenuous link, I know most will not buy it. But you really have to think from a Mordor point of view as to how gleeful this looks.

I have anyway only stated a wish of mine. I am nobody to stop people from criticizing the MoD, if that's what they want to do. I can recount one horrible episode where I had actually besmirched the armed forces myself on this forum based on a few bad apples in the forces (I don't know what the hell I was thinking at the time) and i can tell you this much - you may think you're being strictly logical at the time, but time and a change of mindset sometimes reveals the real damage done.

[.sushilkumar]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

‎
‎How can he conclude that the Su-30MKI is outgunned and out ranked by a F-16 in this engagement unless you have gone through each radar recording and RWR (radar warning receiver) readings of the aircraft that fought on both sides. Access he will never get.‎

Agree fully on above. All these details never get out into public domain immediately. As for those questioning if MIG 21 actually killed a F 16 much to the embarrassment of Uncle SAM, below articles will throw some light & these were written in 2014.

U.S. Jet Fighters Are Back in India For Wargames (The Last Two Times, the Indian Air Force Won)
Cope India: when India’s Russian jets achieved a surprising 9:1 kill ratio against U.S. F-15s
Fishbed vs Falcon: Why the ancient MiG-21's F-16 kill is no fluke

The IAF’s MiG-21 Bisons proved especially troublesome. An upgraded variant of the 1950s-era jet American fighters battled over Vietnam, the Bison had a relatively small radar cross-section of 2.5 meters squared (an F-15’s RCS is around 10m²) and was upgraded with a powerful Israeli jammer that reduced detection range. The allowed the MiG-21s to close for a Within Visual Range engagement.

MIG's might have a old air frame but its avionics are all 4th gen.

[SmartCat]

Looks like Mi17 helicopter crash on 27th Feb was a friendly fire incident

Budgam: Indian missile fired before Mi17 V5 chopper crash
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/68623744.cms

[Maveryq]

An unfortunate reality of war and something that probably shocked the IAF at that point of time and impacted the events succeeding the incursion of the PAF.
Remains to be seen how the IAF sets up its doctrines for the future scenarios and how the learnings are incorporated.

[ashroy_6]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Looks like Mi17 helicopter crash on 27th Feb was a friendly fire incident

Budgam: Indian missile fired before Mi17 V5 chopper crash
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/68623744.cms

This has already been speculated long time back. It's sad that such news is been reported by the media and not Iaf. I am sure the govt, army and Iaf knew this since the beginning.

[wildsdi5530]

Saw this news on the phone today in the morning.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/68623744.cms

However searching all news channels but no news at all. Did we shoot a Paki helicopter with VIPs that the Govt does not want to disclose??