[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Wing Cdr Abhinandan was shot down by a passive infra red short range missile that by definition does not give out a clue of its release and is usually fired at short range taking 1 to 4 seconds to hit its target.

Narayan sorry to intrude into this very informative discussion but according to both Indian and Pakistani sources Abhinandan was shot down by a AIM-120C-5
Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile, or AMRAAM. This is an active radar homing missile and not an infra red guided missile.

Ideally the RWR should have sounded although not sure if it would have been of any use as it was launched within its NEZ (No Escape Zone) of 20-30km.

NEZ is the range at which the chances of a missile missing its target is very small.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Narayan sorry to intrude into this very informative discussion but according to both Indian and Pakistani sources Abhinandan was shot down by a AIM-120C-5
Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile, or AMRAAM. This is an active radar homing missile and not an infra red guided missile.

Ideally the RWR should have sounded although not sure if it would have been of any use as it was launched within its NEZ (No Escape Zone) of 20-30km.

NEZ is the range at which the chances of a missile missing its target is very small.

Thankyou Foxbat. I stand corrected. Your narration is correct. Thankyou for the information.

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Wing Cdr Abhinandan was shot down by a passive infra red short range missile that by definition does not give out a clue of its release and is usually fired at short range taking 1 to 4 seconds to hit its target.

On a different note - and pardon if I am sounding stern - in war some will get shot down and some will get hurt and killed - that is the sad truth of war. Today with aviation video games and social media it has become a fashion to over analyze a foggy rapidly changing life and death situation spiraling in three dimensions at forces of several G's and wonder why did he do this or not do this.

Narayan sir, i am not questioning or debating why Wg Cdr Abhinandan didn't do something, it was just a curious question.

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Indian and Pakistani sources Abhinandan was shot down by a AIM-120C-5
Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile, or AMRAAM. This is an active radar homing missile and not an infra red guided missile.

Ideally the RWR should have sounded although not sure if it would have been of any use as it was launched within its NEZ (No Escape Zone) of 20-30km.

Thanks for the information Foxbat. Also explains why the F16 shot down by the MiG21 was unaware of what hit it since it was tracked passively by the R73 and not painted by the Radar of Mig21.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

Narayan sir, i am not questioning or debating why Wg Cdr Abhinandan didn't do something, it was just a curious question.

My apologies, @sagarpadaki.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

Was he not notified anything on his RWR that he has a missile lock from a F16 and did he use countermeasures /evasive maneuvers ? He fired the R73 Archer and turned around. He was hit approx 50 seconds after he fired at the F16.

Can anyone provide more information on this aspect?

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

A RWR by definition is a Radar Warning Receiver - it will tell you if a radar guided air to air missile is painting your aircraft - it will usually indicate which quadrant it is coming from but not what kind of missile and may or may not be able to tell you the range.

In addition to what Narayan sir has said, the RWR will only display threats if the threat aircraft has its radar on and if your aircraft has been "painted"(meaning you are being tracked by that radar). If you have an aircraft flying around you that has its radar switched off and if its is flying outside your radar scan range angles , you will not know about its presence on RWR, unless warned by GCI or AWACS radar.

RWR also has an audio component. Each time a new radar signal is detected, an audio warning played for the pilot. Because different radars "sound" different, pilots learn to recognize different airborne or surface threats by their distinctive tones (stored in the inbuilt RWR library). The sound is also an important cue to tell the pilot what the radar is doing: If the sound plays once, or intermittently, it means the radar is only painting our aircraft (in search mode). If a sound plays continuously, the radar has locked onto our aircraft and is in track mode, and thus the pilot's immediate attention is demanded. In some cases, the RWR can tell if the radar is in launch mode (sending radar data to a passive radar-guided missile), or if the radar is that of an active radar-guided missile. In either of these cases, a distinctive missile launch tone is played and the pilot is advised to immediately act to counter the threat. Note that the RWR has no way of knowing if a heat-seeking missile is on its way to our aircraft.

This player made in game video from the flight sim Falcon 4.0 (with BMS 4.33 patch) demonstrates how the RWR warns you about a missile launch from and aircraft( in this case another F-16). It will give you a fair idea about RWR functioning.

Both opposing aircrafts are in F-16s in human v/s human multiplayer mode. On the RWR, initially you see how the opposing F-16s's radar lock is shown on the player's RWR at 12'o clock position i.e the position at which the opposing F-16 is relative to the player's F-16 . You hear intermittent warnings as the opposing F-16 radar scans the player's F-16. Once the opposing F-16 launched an AIM-120, audio warnings start blaring and the symbol on the RWR starts flashing. These audio warnings and symbols on the RWR are always different for each ground based and aerial radar to help the pilot distinguish between threats. The player doesn't perform evasive manuevers and gets hit but the opposing player evades the player's AIM-120 missile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1FhPQ0k5ao

In this RWR display shown below, the RWR has detected an F-15 (15 with a hat on top of it, indicating aircraft) at the 7'o clock position(relative to your aircraft). The strength of the radar is plotted as distance from the center — the closer to the center, the stronger the detected radar signal, and therefore possibly the closer the transmitting aircraft.



Also detected at the 12- to 1'o clock position are two SAM sites, an SA-5 "Gammon" and an SA-6 "Gainful".The RWR has determined the SA-6 to be the highest priority threat in the area, and thus has enclosed it with a diamond.

RWR displays installed on different aircraft are different in terms of how they look and their warning systems, but the way RWRs work is essentially the same. I have tried to show an RWR works in a an F-16, because I am somewhat familiar with how it works while flying an F-16 in the flight sim Falcon 4.0, where RWRs of various F-16 Blocks have been modelled.

When Infra red heat seeking missiles such as the R-60. R-73, AIM-9, Python etc are launched, you will never get a launch warning on the RWR because those IR missiles lock on to the target's heat signature, and is not dependant on a radar lock for guidance. The only way to evade IRMs, for that matter any missile, is to visually acquire them and try desperate evasive manuevers, at the same time dumping flares to confuse the seeker of the missile. Previously, the only way to know in advance of an IRM launch, was to keep a visual look out. But now modern fighters and helicopters have a system called MAWS( Missile Approach Warning Systems, which is not be confused with an RWR). The sensor of a MAWS detects attacking missiles. Its automatic warning cues the pilot to take evasive maneuvers and deploy the available countermeasures(chaff/flare/jammer) to disrupt missile tracking. MAWS are IR, UV Doppler based based MAWS can work against Radar guided as well as IR missiles.

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Ideally the RWR should have sounded although not sure if it would have been of any use as it was launched within its NEZ (No Escape Zone) of 20-30km.

NEZ is the range at which the chances of a missile missing its target is very small.

Apart from the AMRAAM NEZ aspect, another theory no one seems to have considered is the AIM-120's rumoured LOAL(Lock On After Launch) capability. It is not known if the AIM-120Cs supplied to the PAF have this capability or not.

Conventionally, most missiles are launched in LOBL mode(Lock on Before Launch). LOAL is the capability of a missile to lock-on to a target after being launched from its carrier (i.e no radar or IR lock is required for missile launch). LOAL depends on cuing from a helmet mounted sight or onboard radar or FLIR, and use a simple strapdown inertial guidance system to know where to look after launch.

If any one of you has played the helicopter sim "Enemy Engaged Apache v/s Havoc/Comanche v.s Hokum", you would know what LOAL mode is.The AGM-114 is a well known LOAL weapon, where you could first fire your weapon in the general area of a target and then lock onto a target using your FLIR, TGP or Longbow radar(depending on which helicopter you are flying) to guide that missile to a tank or an APC. Launches in LOAL mode are made when it is known that there are no friendly forces in the area.

In LOAL mode, the missile can lock on to a target on its own or through datalink from the launch aircraft. The target has no idea that an airborne missile is looking for it and by the time the target gets warned that the missile has locked on, its is almost too late for the target to evade the missile.

In theory if you launch an IR missile without a solid lock on to a target or if it misses its intended target, the missile is essentially flying in LOAL mode. Its seeker looks for IR sources to lock on to. That's what happened when a PAF-16 shot down another PAF F-16 during an engagement with Soviet MiG-23s on the Pak-Afghan border in the 80s. A PAF-16 launched an AIM-9 at a Soviet MiG-23 , but the MiG-23 managed to evade the missile, the now targetless AIM-9 re-acquired another PAF F-16 flying nearby as its new target and hit it.

This is how AIM-9s are launched after locking on to a target Close Combat. The famed IR missile growl changes in intensity depending on the strength of the lock the IR missile sensor gets on a target. You can hear and see RWR warnings of MiG-23s and MiG-25s nearby on the F-16's RWR display.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgCSMwVkN58

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

My apologies, @sagarpadaki.

No need to apologize, sir!

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

No need to apologize, sir!

We all want to keep the threads on aircrafts and aviation as rich in knowledge and as clean & courteous as possible. I don't want these aviation threads to become full of spats and arguments like we sometimes experience on the car threads so I must practice what I preach.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Its seeker looks for IR sources to lock on to. That's what happened when a PAF-16 shot down another PAF F-16 during an engagement with Soviet MiG-23s on the Pak-Afghan border in the 80s. A PAF-16 launched an AIM-9 at a Soviet MiG-23 , but the MiG-23 managed to evade the missile, the now targetless AIM-9 re-acquired another PAF F-16 flying nearby as its new target and hit it.

Thanks Skanchan on the detailed explanation

Regarding the PAF F-16 shot down by the another F-16, what actually happened we would never know but according to many sources a Mig-23 shot it down and the US helped cover it up with a fratricide story.

Here is the story from 1987 from a Western Newspaper (Washington Post):

AFGHANISTAN SAYS IT DOWNED F16 FIGHTER FROM PAKISTAN
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...?noredirect=on


Here is another article from 1987 by a Western Source how the US helped Pakistan Cover up the loss:

Exclusive Friendly fire downs Pakistani F-16; U.S. in a coverup
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1987/07...8251553579200/

Some highlights from the articles:

"Afghanistan's communist authorities said today an advanced U.S.-made F16 flown by the Pakistani Air Force was shot down inside Afghan territory, marking a new escalation in the air battles evolving out of Afghanistan's eight-year-old guerrilla war.

Diplomats here said that this would be the first Pakistani F16 to be shot down and that its loss could have an important impact on Pakistan's military tactics along the increasingly hostile Afghan border."

"Administration sources said the F16 pilots were then ambushed by what were believed to be two high-flying, Soviet-piloted MiG23 fighters. One F16 crashed on the Afghan side of the border, but the pilot ejected and parachuted into Pakistan, officials said.

.....but the F16 is the pride of its fleet and has assumed almost mythical proportions among Pakistanis as a symbol of the country's ability to defend itself."

"Other observers familiar with Pakistan said the loss of an F16 could have a more far-reaching impact, undercutting Pakistani confidence at a time when there is growing pressure to try to bring an end to the Afghan war and to get the estimated 3 million Afghan refugees in Pakistan to return home.

"The F16 was believed to be invincible," said one observer."

"Pakistan's attempt to cover up the accident was assisted by some Pentagon and State Department officials who felt the false report of a Soviet 'kill' might help promote Pakistan's bid to acquire sophisticated U.S.-made AWACS radar airplanes, administration sources told United Press International.

However, Pakistan first concocted the story primarily to 'save face' and prevent any embarrassment of its Air Force, which has created an F-16 craze among the Pakistani people, they said."

"The official said Pakistan was particularly embarrassed about the accident because the F-16 has 'seized the imagination of the Pakistani people' to the extent that there are 'F-16 cafes, F-16 T-shirts and F-16 bumper stickers. You can even see F-16s on the flaps of buses in Islamabad."


Same old story from 1987 repeating in 2019, invincible PAF F-16, pride of the country, shot down and then a cover story made discrediting the loss.

[SmartCat]

Looks like BAE Hawk trainer is getting some teeth. All 100+ Hawks are being upgraded for combat roles and is called Hawk-i



Going by the planned upgrades, it looks like Hawk-i will be used for close air support and ground attack roles. HAL's latest annual report says they have already tested and integrated smart anti-runway bombs and Precision Guided Munitions on Hawk-i



Meanwhile, this Flightglobal.com article suggests Hawk-i will be equipped with AIM-132 short range infrared air-to-air missile (range 25 km)



and Brimstone air-to-surface supersonic standoff missile (range of upto 60 km)



Perhaps this explains why IAF is not very keen on Jaguar engine upgrade?

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

However, Pakistan first concocted the story primarily to 'save face' and prevent any embarrassment of its Air Force, which has created an F-16 craze among the Pakistani people, they said."

To understand this denial about F-16 losses and the self built craze around their F-16s, you have to understand the psyche of the PAF in the Pakistani thinking.Right from Pakistan's formation, the Pakistanis believe that 1 Pakistani soldier = 10 Indian soldiers, hence they can beat India in any battlefield. Many ordinary Pakistanis still believe the 1965 & 71 wars were won by the Pakistanis.As a nation, they survive on their hatred of India and "Azaadi" for Kashmir. If you ever come across a book called "Fiza'ya: Psyche of the Pakistan Air Force" by Pushpindar Singh and Ravi Rikhye (published in 1991), do read it. It gives a valuable insights on how the PAF thinks and operates.


The Pakistanis have been made to believe that their pilots are better and their aircraft superior. The PAF is invincible whereas us Indians use inferior fighters, weapons, the pilots poorly trained and are passive in nature and that the IAF always performs poorly in wars. To break the bad news to the Awaam that a lone and obsolete IAF MiG-21 charged across aggressively into PoK, got close to enough to launch an IRM that shot down their wonderplane, the F-16, it will be result in decades of lies getting exposed and it be too much for them as a nation to bear. This was not some old Mirage III or F-7 that got shot down, it was the best of their best,an F-16!!!!

The ordinary Pakistanis, when they get to know this would ask for answers - either from the Pakistani Army or the PAF. To satisfy their public, the Pakistan Army & PAF would have to go to war with India, and then the end result would be a decisive loss against a larger, more powerful enemy, and this time it would be caught on media. They just cannot afford it.

So, it suits them to keep the F-16 shoot down incident a well guarded secret. Look at the entire history of the Indo-Pak wars, the number of super human claims the Pakistanis have made on Indian forces losses and the number of times Pakistan simply refused to even accept its own casualties, including the remains of its own troops. Just see how they built a super myth around Sqdn Ldr M M Alam's kills in the 1965 war, that he shot down 5 IAF Hunters in less than 30 seconds!!! It was proven to be a big lie, yet even after M M Alam's death, they believe that he actually managed to do it.

India exposed Pakistan's losses in the 1999 Kargil war by putting on TV, captured Pakistani soldiers interviews. Pakistan then sent a PAF plane to take back the survivors. Then finally, a bunch of soldiers bodies were handed over to the Pak side for burial, which again was televised.

Unlike the F-16 loss possibly to Soviet MiG-23s in the late 80s, India has a number of evidences regarding the F-16 kill and has presented it. There was an AWACS in the air & simultaneous trackjng by a Thales LLTR on the ground, both feeding information to the Indian AFs C3I in Punjab for sensor fusion. Both saw what happened, as did many Indian Army troops on the ground, then there is the visual evidence that two different jets went down at two different locations and the royal goofups by Ghafool the from the Pakistani side. India is not stupid enough to reveal its most sensitive and classified capabilities over one F-16 either.

But solid evidences may emerge inadvertently from the Pakistanis eventually. Same as when the Taliban attacked a PAF Air Base and blew up, damaged a few Saab Erieye AWACS and this was hidden by the PAF, but the truth came out when a Pak Govt spokesperson ended up admitting the loss of an aircraft and many damaged. Later, SAAB itself came up with details of repairs on those aircraft.

Surely, the PAF lost an F-16 to an IAF MiG-21, and it is very likely that they will never admit it, simply because they cannot let the myth they have built around the plane and its pilots, get shattered.

[moralfibre]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Surely, the PAF lost an F-16 to an IAF MiG-21, and it is very likely that they will never admit it, simply because they cannot let the myth they have built around the plane and its pilots, get shattered.

Think the bigger goof up was that the F-16 pilot was lynched. The slip up happened in an entire chain of reporting that shows up in this press conference from 3:30 to 4:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5mj-783nys

As claimed, they arrested two pilots one of whom was Abhinandan while the 2nd was badly injured and in the hospital.

[aveoman19]

What a brilliant thread! A definite 5 stars. Woke up as usual at around 5 in the morning and thought of checking team-bhp like I always do. Came upon this thread and as I write this, it is now 6.57 a.m.! Totally glued to the screen.

The Indian Air Force has always created one of the best pilots in the world and it is with great pride that I say, we are in safe hands.

Thank you once again for the immersive thread. Looking forward to more. As our great Hero Captain Vikram Batra PVC of the 13 JAK Rif once said after capturing point 5140 Tiger Hill, 'Yeh Dil Maange More'! Please keep them coming.

[NiInJa]

This thread is a mine of information !

Just as I was reading this, I got the below notification on facebook !
Wonder what kind of journalism this is !


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...0.cms?from=mdr

Pointing our Tejas discussion below:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...-how-good.html (India's new Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas. How good is it?)

[Samurai]

Gentlemen, please avoid discussing conspiracy theories. - Support Team

[Redline6800]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Meanwhile, this Flightglobal.com article suggests Hawk-i will be equipped with AIM-132 short range infrared air-to-air missile (range 25 km)

Thats my news item