[DrPriyankT]

The current Rafale deal has options for 36 more birds, which can be exercised at a lower cost as majority of the costs for fixed assets for maintaining the birds and training have been included in the contract for the 1st 36 planes. They are likely to be exercised in a year or two, given the financial conditions. The airforce actually needs 180 medium weight planes, so its likely(i sincerely pray for this) that it will take the shape of 36+36+114 planes in the medium weight category.

Also the Kaveri has been not quite as good as we wanted it to be, but hey, here we are talking about the development of a military turbofan engine. Its almost impossible to master it in the 1st attempt. Even though it's not going to power the Tejas, it has enough power to power our UCAV's under development. As a part of the offsets of the Rafale deal, Snecma will be hand holding the ARDE and HAL for further development of the Kaveri engine. One more thing I would like to add is, we have to give credit to our scientists for diligently developing an engine, unlike the Chinese who have reverse engineered the AL-31 engine (the Sukhoi-27/30/34/33/35's) powerplant, but as luck would have it, it has been a mediocre engine with many technical issues which has led to crashes. The Chinese engine is called the Shenyang WS-10. They have finally over the years ironed out a few issues. Hopefully we'll do the same with the Kaveri.

Even the mighty Soviets and Americans had to take help of the Brits in developing their jets. The Americans took it officialy and the British were obliged to help them due to the American support they had in WW2, while the Soviets ingeniously obtained the designs of the Rolls-Royce Nene as a part of a bet, and the rest as they say with respect to engine development of the two nations is history. The 1st link shows how the Russians obtained the plans for their reverse engineered Klimov VK-1, and the second link highlights how the Americans built their first jet engine.

https://aviationdoctor.wordpress.com...he-korean-peo/

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4306/ch3.htm


My moot point is, given the stresses a jet engine, especially a military jet engine has to undergo through its life, it's really difficult to develop one in the 1st attempt, especially in a country like ours where budgets were limited and also where development was handicapped for a few years post Pokhran due to sanctions.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

India's involvement in the SU 57:- was the idea of embedding Indian engineers in the SU 57 design team ever discussed? Sutripta

Far as I remember the earliest IAF grumbling stemmed from India feeling aggrieved at the lack of equitable work share on the project. Basically the Russians weren't really taking much input or even giving the Indian side much to work with. India basically started to feel we were helping bankroll a Russian development project, which in essence we were helping to do anyway, we had just been under the impression it would involve more input from our engineers to help speed along domestic expertise in that manner.

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

Welcome to this thread. The 114 aircraft deal is slightly on the back-burner currently. The deal may still see the light of day, albeit a bit late and it will be in small increments. The IAF from what I hear is in no mood to backdown from the Rafale.

Also the article in my opinion is slightly click-baitish. The domestic deal for the Tejas will go through first as its firstly a domestic deal, with greater role for Indian domestic industry, hence will be good for optics for the people in power, and the Tejas deal is structured in such a way that the first 40 aircraft are of Tejas Mark 1 variant, a perfect replacement , for the Mig 21, whereas the next 83 are improved Mk1A birds. The Tejas is currently needed a bit more as it’s the replacement of the Mig 21. Ideally one should not compare the Tejas and the Rafale, as both are meant for entirely different roles in the IAF scheme of things.

I can't see the guy who is widely spoken of as the architect of the Rafale deal, ACM Bhadauria, now in charge of the IAF suddenly backing down on the very item he stepped into the limelight for facilitating. I agree that the deal will be put on ice for now given the entirely real fiscal issues, but the intent is still there.

I agree that regardless of the butchered semantics of media reporting, alleged or not, the Tejas announcement sounds primarily as extremely politically convenient optics first. Sure it's good that the Tejas programme is getting yet another public vote of confidence by lawmakers but like others have commented before on the thread. I still remain to be convinced that HAL will hold up their end of the bargain and produce the damn things in any meaningful numbers or just stick to their usual languid production schedules.

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

Even the mighty Soviets and Americans had to take help of the Brits in developing their jets. The Americans took it officialy and the British were obliged to help them due to the American support they had in WW2, while the Soviets ingeniously obtained the designs of the Rolls-Royce Nene as a part of a bet, and the rest as they say with respect to engine development of the two nations is history.

I thought the Nene made it's way to Russian hands under an export order by Prime Minister Attlee. It's one of the gripes older conservative leaning types have against old Clement is that he gave away what was the premier jet engine design. It's just that this whole "bet" angle sounds extremely anecdotal is all and it's the first time I'm hearing of it.

However, in 1946, before the Cold War had really begun, the new British Labour government under the Prime Minister, Clement Attlee, keen to improve diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union, authorised Rolls-Royce to export 40 Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal flow turbojet engines. In 1958 it was discovered during a visit to Beijing by Whitney Straight, then deputy chairman of Rolls-Royce, that this engine had been copied without license[1] to power the MiG-15 'Fagot', first as the RD-45, and after initial problems of metallurgy forced the Soviet engineers to develop a slightly redesigned (and metallurgically closer) copy, the engine had then entered production as the Klimov VK-1 (Rolls-Royce later attempted to claim £207m in license fees, without success).

Anyway tangent aside I think it was mentioned earlier but there really hasn't been much in the way of news of progress SNECMA has made in their consulting work basically for the Kaveri. Don't know whether that's an ominous sign or just that they're still hard at work trying to iron out the kinks.

The metallurgical aspect of engine design is still something reverse engineering can't achieve. It's the reason why the Chinese for all their attempts still haven't been able to make a competent turbofan on par with Western designs. So in that respect I'll cut ARDE and HAL some slack for sure, if the Chinese what with the their entire industrial might and not to mention national security apparatus engaged in industrial espionage still haven't figured it out, can't really blame our folks for not making much headway either.

[DrPriyankT]

@ads11, definitely any further Rafale deals are on ice for a couple of years and the only progress I see till then is us exercising the 36 options in our contract. That will cover us till the medium term. Yes I too agree that HAL needs to bow pull up their socks all the way till their head to accelerate production of the Tejas. We need those planes now more than ever. We need volumes of fighters to build up the low end bulk of the IAF fleet. With positive political intent we see currently, hopefully the production will pick up from current rates. I abhor the ethics of the Pakistani military and state, but I give them credit for the JF-17. They pushed the aircraft into operations from the IOC configuration, which led to faster development. Only once we have enough Tejas's, can we hone out its kinks. For eg a Tejas Squadrons at Suratgarh/Naliya/ Nal-Bikaner/Pathankot/Awantipora AFS replacing the Mig-21's in point defence roles in active operations will help us even out kinks faster. The Tejas at Sulur have now reached squadron strength, as per news reports they performed well with high mission rates at Iron Fist exercises. Hence they need to send them as small detachments to frontline bases to even out the final kinks. Hell, if u don't use something, how will you know if it works correctly. I am not saying replace all Mig 21's in one shot, do it incrementally.

And i fully agree with cutting some slack for ARDE/HAL/DRDO for our slow development of an indigenous jet, given the massive metallurgical complexity involved.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

India's involvement in the SU 57:- was the idea of embedding Indian engineers in the SU 57 design team ever discussed?

Sutripta

Originally Posted by PGA

Russians said NO to the proposals

Originally Posted by ads11

Far as I remember the earliest IAF grumbling stemmed from India feeling aggrieved at the lack of equitable work share on the project. Basically the Russians weren't really taking much input or even giving the Indian side much to work with. India basically started to feel we were helping bankroll a Russian development project, which in essence we were helping to do anyway, we had just been under the impression it would involve more input from our engineers to help speed along domestic expertise in that manner.

So did we or did we not have embedded engineers during the design phase of the SU57?

[V.Narayan]

There is a high risk that the Su-57 will not see squadron service in meaningful numbers. Russia has not been able to develop a new military aircraft since the end of the USSR. All aircraft developed - Su-30, MiG-35, Su-33 etc. are derivatives of late Cold War designs. Same with tanks and submarines. Literally the only new major conventional weapon system they have successfully designed and commissioned from a clean sheet of paper is the Gorshkov class frigate. Their eco-system to conceptualize, design, test, refine and then produce has weakened significantly since 1991. Just my personal views.

[Sutripta]

^^^
Missile systems too?

My bringing up the SU57 has nothing to do with it as an aircraft, but the fact that we were paying a significant part for its development, so not exactly a buyer seller situation. And he who pays the piper should call the tune. At least part of it anyway.

Sutripta

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Originally Posted by Sutripta

So did we or did we not have embedded engineers during the design phase of the SU57?

I'm sorry I don't have specifics but just going off programme dates, India only joined about 2007 which I think was roughly when the first prototype was manufactured or at least construction of it began. With the design finalised in 2009 according to Wiki, I don't see how Indian engineers might've made much input at the design phase. I will concede it's not a definitive enough answer. Long story short the fact that India took the pretty drastic step of pulling out of the project (something I find tough to believe given the comfortable inactive inertia that I characterise defence babu's with) is proof enough that India was sufficiently irked with what they saw from the Su-47. I mean it's been pretty dismal and desperate for the project ever since with a few blink-and-you-miss-it rotations to Syria (Russia's favourite export real world operations demo arena) and trying to flog it to anyone they can hope for.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

There is a high risk that the Su-57 will not see squadron service in meaningful numbers. Russia has not been able to develop a new military aircraft since the end of the USSR. All aircraft developed - Su-30, MiG-35, Su-33 etc. are derivatives of late Cold War designs. Same with tanks and submarines. Literally the only new major conventional weapon system they have successfully designed and commissioned from a clean sheet of paper is the Gorshkov class frigate. Their eco-system to conceptualize, design, test, refine and then produce has weakened significantly since 1991. Just my personal views.

Yeah, a lot of the major projects for Russia they just haven't been able to really make headway on. Ground systems, take the Armata programme that would essentially totally revamp their entire armoured units. Relegated to parade duty, in fact the last fiscal they spent more buying working condition tanks of yesteryear for Victory Day parade duty. Hardly a ringing endorsement when you basically need to work with T-90s and BMP-3s for yet longer. Their conventional naval surface vessel construction capabilities went pretty much with the split from Ukraine, the skill was in the shipyard workers there. Similarly for big transport jets (see Antonov for eg - Russia has wanted to have a more modern strategic airlift platform for a while but again, another project that just hasn't taken off, literally. Granted HAL is involved with UAC in a medium lift cargo jet the IL-276). As a result you don't see any big capital ship projects beyond pretty scale models. Even strategic platforms like the Borei class SSBN only had the improved A subvariant enter trials recently. The shipyard behind the Lada class is desperate to get the Indian order because without that, they just won't be able to keep the lights on going forward.
Honestly with oil prices still volatile and mostly depressed, Russian fiscal pressures will mean whatever little money they Do have they'll only put towards the most pressing needs. Pretty much everything else is just ambling along on inertia alone. The Su-47 while having some intriguing ideas seems it just won't reach the same operational levels as the J-20 let alone any US peer platform. So I'd fully concur with V Narayan, major Russian conventional platforms that are post Soviet clean sheet designs still leave a lot to be desired.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by ads11

I'm sorry I don't have specifics but just going off
...
flog it to anyone they can hope for.

If it had come about, what do you think would have been the role of the embedded India engineers?

Sutripta

[ads11]

Just speculating here but I would assume a large part of what embedding the Indian engineers would have to do would be to get a couple of things sorted at the design stage rather than having to retrofit later:

• Let's take the fact that India seems to prefer to have a dual seat heavy fighter. They very much prefer having a split workload in the cockpit so in that sense they could make input into a variant that was more geared towards India's needs than Russia's
• Systems integration - India almost always retrofits it's own medley of disparate systems from avionics on down to weapons systems. What better way than to have some Indian engineers embedded at the early stage nudging the project so that whatever say the cockpit architecture is, or lets say the wiring, is done in a manner that would make it easier for India to make the changes it wants to make. This could involve having modular subsystems if I had to guess
• On that systems integration point, it'd likely probably be helpful for India to see an ostensibly "5th gen" platform being designed from the nuts and bolts stage, and more specifically up close. Probably harder to quantify gains here but you'd hope that there'd be some almost osmotic learning for lack of a better word. I imagine it was here that the real issues stemmed from. India probably expected more of a behind the scenes insight at the very least and I take it the Russians gave them the cold shoulder.

Those first two points are basically the main things I can think of would be logical from the Indian standpoint.

[FrozeninTime]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

There is a high risk that the Su-57 will not see squadron service in meaningful numbers. Russia has not been able to develop a new military aircraft since the end of the USSR. .

After Soviet union dissolved most of its R&D assets were inherited by former Soviet republics like Ukraine inheriting Shipping infrastructure. The Russians inherited not only a economy which was in bad shape but also lost many core industries, supply chains. Russian have never fully recovered from break up of Soviet union and be reason for their lack of innovation.
IMO Mig 21,Mig 15, Sukhoi 27 were the only aircrafts that matched Whatever West had to offer.

[MegaWhat]

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

My moot point is, given the stresses a jet engine, especially a military jet engine has to undergo through its life, it's really difficult to develop one in the 1st attempt, especially in a country like ours where budgets were limited and also where development was handicapped for a few years post Pokhran due to sanctions.

Most of the successful engine manufacturers like GE, Pratt and Rolls are the ones who had developed gas turbine technology when it was in the nascent stage in the 1940's-50's. It's rather challenging to come up with an engine that can function on a 4th or 5th generation fighter aircraft with that high combustion temperatures and forces. I'm sure we can develop something that goes on a 2nd or 3rd generation aircraft relatively quickly. Besides, LCA has seen more than 3 decades in development and we've gone from a requirement of a 3rd gen to 4th and almost 5th gen fighter with continuously changing design requirements. That's not a fun place to be as an engineer.

Like most of the aircraft industry, a large part of the engine design is based on "legacy engines" and "thumb rules". So more the number of engines one has developed, the more successful they would be in coming up with new engines. Even for development of today's engines, thumb rules and 1D tools developed in the 1960's are referred to first. That gives a big headstart to the ones who have been making engines for decades. HAL is still in the nascent stages.

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

And i fully agree with cutting some slack for ARDE/HAL/DRDO for our slow development of an indigenous jet, given the massive metallurgical complexity involved.

Indeed. Our access to high temperature & pressure sustaining alloys and precision manufacturing has been rather limiting. I'm not sure if we have the capability of single crystal blade manufacturing with the intricate cooling passages that go within each blade.

[fhdowntheline]

I am not blaming the manufacturers or design bureaus (to borrow a cold war term) as much as the governments running them. For many years, the Air Force has been given the short end of the stick so to say, despite the clear signs of its importance post the 71 war.
We have been burdened with small numbers and variety and complexity of equipment since the 80s, 90s. At least now, the government should standardise weapon platforms, not waste resources in unnecessary indigenisation and get on with critical purchases wherever needed such as the Rafale, with the original target (100+).

Tejas+ Rafale+Su30 would be a good combination.

[wildsdi5530]

Originally Posted by MegaWhat

Like most of the aircraft industry, a large part of the engine design is based on "legacy engines" and "thumb rules". So more the number of engines one has developed, the more successful they would be in coming up with new engines. Even for development of today's engines, thumb rules and 1D tools developed in the 1960's are referred to first. That gives a big headstart to the ones who have been making engines for decades. HAL is still in the nascent stages.

Why can't we just kidnap the scientists and engineers from abroad if we do not have the know-how?
Or perhaps we can even employ them, paying them as consultants.
As an orthopedic surgeon, I learnt the current surgeries and practice them only, Older techniques unto about a 100 years are learnt about but not practiced. And even older surgery is not known by me. If I had to start operating as Sushrusha used to do, then graduate along history learning every technique in 4500 years, I'll never get to current levels.

[himanshugoswami]

Originally Posted by wildsdi5530

Why can't we just kidnap the scientists and engineers from abroad if we do not have the know-how?
Or perhaps we can even employ them, paying them as consultants.
As an orthopedic surgeon, I learnt the current surgeries and practice them only, Older techniques unto about a 100 years are learnt about but not practiced. And even older surgery is not known by me. If I had to start operating as Sushrusha used to do, then graduate along history learning every technique in 4500 years, I'll never get to current levels.

bureaucracy is the answer (not endorsing the kidnapping part though! ). When the Soviet Union broke up, their defence scientists were left without jobs or pay. they were up for grabs. I know for a fact that some of them working in the fields of metallurgy and propulsion approached India to seek employment. GOI dithered, babus in DPSUs felt insecure and the bogey of not upsetting Russia was flown about. so barring one or two individual cases, most of these scientists were left hanging.

Guess who swooped in and picked them up? Yes, China. A decade later we see the Lavi morphing into the decently capable J10 and a decade further down, the Mig 1.44 design is thoroughly reworked and we see the J20. the WS 10 engine is already powering some J 11s and the WS15 engine is coming online

India is still struggling with the Tejas. the Kaveri is R.I.P.

Bureaucracy has been the bane of this country. And continues to be

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by FrozeninTime

After Soviet union dissolved most of its R&D assets were inherited by former Soviet republics like Ukraine inheriting Shipping infrastructure. The Russians inherited not only a economy which was in bad shape but also lost many core industries, supply chains. Russian have never fully recovered from break up of Soviet union and be reason for their lack of innovation.
IMO Mig 21,Mig 15, Sukhoi 27 were the only aircrafts that matched Whatever West had to offer.

Oops. Ouch. Aaaarggh. Let me pop some blood pressure pills. On a thread of aircraft lovers and nutcases that is a dangerous statement to make You are a brave man :-)

I would add the Yak-9 fighter, not given enough credit in the West but probably the best fighter the Allies had in WW-II, certainly one of the best 4 on the Allies' side. Then we had the MiG-19, the world's first supersonic to reach squadron service and a design so versatile that the Chinese evolved it into their Q-5 Fantan and produced it till 1986. And we have our favourite Foxbat - both the member and the aircraft :-){be grateful he hasn't seen your post yet}. In helicopters there is the Mi-8 and Mi-17 Hip family - as reliable as anything anywhere else and of course the Mi-24 Hind, the world's first armoured gunship helicopter which introduced a whole new class. I would add the Su-24 & Su-25 to the list too. Of course each of our opinions are subjective. It's like asking which flower is the prettiest. .....And my favourite the IL-2 Sturmovik a war winning weapon of the highest order.

Alas great Russian aircraft will gradually fade into history in a couple of decades. Same thing happened to the British after 1960.