[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

Sir, the KS-172 is a heavy long-range AAM is meant for slow lumbering force multipliers like AWACS, Air to Air refuellers and ELINT aircraft. .................................................. ..............A funny fact is, the longest range missile currently in use is the American AIM-54 Phoenix missile, used by the Iranian’s on their F-14’s. Its also suspected that a bramhos missile variant is being developed as a long-range air to air missile.

Originally Posted by ads11

This was a great post! I'll add that the massive Phoenix missile was basically the raison d'etre for the Tomcat,

Sorry to nitpick but the 274 early versions of Aim-54s missiles and 10 training rounds delivered to Iran in 1979 are definitely not the longest range missiles currently in use (that is if any actually remain unused and are serviceable).

Also the Aim-54 is also a heavy long-range AAM is meant for slow lumbering aircraft like maritime patrol and attack bombers. The only reason they were able to shoot down Iraqi warplanes in the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s was that the Iraqis has no Radar warning receivers to enable them to dodge the missiles. In the 1991 gulf war the Aim-54 was fired at Iraqi fighter aircraft 3 times and missed every time.

The Russian R-37 missile carried by the Mig-31 "Foxhound" is said to have a range of more than 200 km and its later variants have an even longer range (still in development I believe).

Source: http://www.military-today.com/missiles/r37.htm

[DrPriyankT]

@foxbat,you will like to read this about Iranian F-14's and their supposed service in Iranian Air Force.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/hushkit...ghter-ace/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/hushkit...zandarani/amp/

[sagarpadaki]

It just does not make any sense to go for the F35 even if the USA offers it.

The USA is a moody nation. You never know when they will fallout. See what happened to Pakistan. For 2 decades USA showered love over Pakistan as long as the latter was nodding its head to whatever Uncle sam ordered. The moment Pakistan aligned with China, the USA left it to fend for themselves.

Also, we are a poor nation. The high hourly flying costs of F-35 is not easy on our pockets. It will be akin to a middle class family buying a BMW and maintaining it! The stealth RAM coating on the F35 needs thorough review and application where necessary before every flight. Not to mention the coating itself is very expensive.

It absolutely makes no political or economic sense to even look at the carrot USA is dangling at us! And USA is doing this to just send a message to China that it will side India in case of conflict.

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

It just does not make any sense to go for the F35 even if the USA offers it.

The stealth RAM coating on the F35 needs thorough review and application where necessary before every flight. Not to mention the coating itself is very expensive.

Given that there are so many "actual" experts here, I was scared to bring up the point of the stealth coating which bubbles up after a few flight hours. Images are available on Google of this; the bubbling of the paint seems to happen due to the extreme heat on the surface sustained in flight.

Not only do all of their stealth aircraft have to be repainted often, I think their stealth aircraft require climate-controlled hangars (humidity, temperature etc.). Indias bases are ill-suited to transform themselves to that kind of a support infrastructure right? It doesn't make sense to me from this perspective alone.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

@foxbat,you will like to read this about Iranian F-14's and their supposed service in Iranian Air Force.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/hushkit...ghter-ace/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/hushkit...zandarani/amp/

Thanks for the links. I have been reading about military aircraft for the last 30+ years. It started from books and then came the internet where you get almost unlimited information but also with it propaganda and just pure fake articles.

Over the years I have seen the fake articles grow exponentially more and more and now coincidentally I also work in a job where I take down fake/abusive/misleading content from the internet.

My advice is to take these articles from xyz wesbites with a bucket of salt and apply but of common sense when analysing them.

From the second link you sent I read "Around 180 Iraqi aircraft fell to Grumman’s deadly Tomcat, " and then I stopped reading.
180 lost to just Tomcats is probably more than twice the number of Total losses admitted by Iraq and 50% more than total kills claimed by Iran.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...%80%93Iraq_war


The website itself is named "Hush-Kit" The alternative aviation magazine

[ads11]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

Also, we are a poor nation. The high hourly flying costs of F-35 is not easy on our pockets. It will be akin to a middle class family buying a BMW and maintaining it! The stealth RAM coating on the F35 needs thorough review and application where necessary before every flight. Not to mention the coating itself is very expensive.

Originally Posted by locusjag

Given that there are so many "actual" experts here, I was scared to bring up the point of the stealth coating which bubbles up after a few flight hours. Images are available on Google of this; the bubbling of the paint seems to happen due to the extreme heat on the surface sustained in flight.

Not only do all of their stealth aircraft have to be repainted often, I think their stealth aircraft require climate-controlled hangars (humidity, temperature etc.). Indias bases are ill-suited to transform themselves to that kind of a support infrastructure right? It doesn't make sense to me from this perspective alone.

So you're both right, there are indeed images of the F-22 in particular showing a great deal of wear on the finnicky stealth coating.

[low observable treatment] takes a lot of work to maintain and many of these applications start degrading shortly after they are applied, with friction from high-speed flight, crushing G forces, and the elements accelerating that process. As such, one of the costliest aspects of operating F-22s—and flying this aircraft is extremely expensive with an average flight hour cost of about $60k—is keeping its stealthy skin up to par. This also is a major contributor to its fairly abysmal mission capable rate of around 50 percent.

The F-35 was designed with new LO skin treatments in mind that significantly reduce the time it takes to keep it in tip-top shape ... but it still takes a lot of work to keep the jets in their most stealthy configuration.

REF:https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...re-fascinating

So images like the one above tend to be for jets used for air shows, fly-bys, training purposes. These can be used with significant corrosion because low observability isn't mission critical for them. That goes to show that the combat coded frontline use jets Will however require a pristine lick of paint and that in turn will necessitate all the finicky maintenance work to keep that outer layer in top condition. When they tend to be forward deployed to the Middle East I imagine the hangers will require to be to some level of hermetically controlled environment wise (I know the first stealth jet, the F-117 was notorious for how fussy it's paint treatment was). Newer ones like the F-35 have obviously been designed to lower this cost both monetarily and in terms of the maintenance downtime.

And while the F-35 will end up having very high flying costs in a hypothetical IAF context, the simple matter is that across the board globally, as platforms evolve and mature, flying costs are getting higher and higher to the point that some air arms can't afford to keep up the necessary flight hours for their aviators. It's also brought to the fore with programmes such as the Light Attack Aircraft tender for the USAF where it's been correctly brought up time and again that you don't need a ~$35000/flight-hour F-35 to target some Afghan insurgents armed with light machine guns and maybe a technical (ie, flatbed Hilux) with a Carl Gustaf bolted on. It's patently absurd.

So to reiterate a point I've likely made earlier in the thread, the programme that interests me from an Indian context is the RAAF low observable UAV wingman project. Essentially the Aussies are going to have their own stealth drone to act in concert with their 4th gen F-18s, augmenting the reach and potency of the older manned birds. I think there's a compelling argument to make that this is a programme borne out of RAAF fiscal and operational realities that have remarkable synergy with what the IAF probably have to deal with. Should India manage to develop something of the sort, it would truly be a big force multiplier whilst not costing as much as a domestic manned stealth platform or coming with the strings attached that purchasing a similar platform from outside will entail. Far as I know there are cordial ties between the IAF and RAAF. I'd send someone to observe the programme development. Australia is basically developing this entirely on their own dime with Boeing locally, so there's less of a direct link to Uncle Sam and Congressional dollars. In fact the USAF is basically taking a wait and see approach to this, with the aim to purchase or incorporate should it work out as envisioned. India could try purchasing from Australia in a similar manner, likely with far less strings attached than if coming from across the Pacific. Better still India could make overtures to have even a small scale input into the development programme from a fiscal and technical standpoint. There are voices in Canberra weary of Chinese machinations - they'd likely be willing ears for any Indian delegation broaching such a workshare.

[DrPriyankT]

@foxbat can you share a few reliable websites for better reading?

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by ads11

... India could try purchasing from Australia in a similar manner, likely with far less strings attached than if coming from across the Pacific. Better still India could make overtures to have even a small scale input into the development programme from a fiscal and technical standpoint. ...

Sir, I guess you know it and have heard of it before. India/DRDO already has a program called "Saathi" or something on those lines was its name. This was discussed and shown during the LCA full glass cockpit concept sometime back. The idea behind is similar to the "wingman" concept of RAAF and Boeing.

This is the video from 06:30 he is talking about this saathi and standoff role of LCAs with the WSO in the rear cockpit becoming the UCAV operator:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mze7z-N9Gg

[ads11]

Originally Posted by AlphaKilo

Sir, I guess you know it and have heard of it before. India/DRDO already has a program called "Saathi" or something on those lines was its name. This was discussed and shown during the LCA full glass cockpit concept sometime back. The idea behind is similar to the "wingman" concept of RAAF and Boeing.

This is the video from 06:30 he is talking about this saathi and standoff role of LCAs with the WSO in the rear cockpit becoming the UCAV operator:

Thanks for that, I was unaware of the Saathi program. Like the gentleman in the flight uniform says, it's the prevailing school of thought going forward. I'm glad then that at least they're mindful of this thinking and have Some framework in place. I'd like to see just how far they get with that though because I truly think that's the biggest domestic programme India could have in terms of its impact. But let's see. I seem to have missed this SPORT trainer, looks like it's a repurposed Tejas airframe. I suppose there's advantages of scale and commonality in doing so.

An interesting aside is the fact that there are motions underway in the US to loosen the restrictions on the sale of advanced UAVs. Now this is primarily driven by capitalist intentions (General Dynamics order book runs out soon as US military sales contracts come to their conclusion) but it'll likely mean that at surface level it'll be easier for India to procure industry standard HALE drones. I'd also say there's plenty of opportunity to turn to Israel in that regard given how frequently they've put their myriad UAVs to service over the years. I know India operates a fair few Israeli designs as it is. I wonder if Israel has any loyal wingman concept in the works.

[DrPriyankT]

So finally today the DAC of the MoD cleared the acquisition of Astra Mk1 BVR A2A missiles for the IAF and as a pleasant surprise for the Indian Navy too. Thankfully we are now streamlining our choice of weapons. 10 years in the future, I forsee the Astra and its various iterations and the Meteor as our primary A2A BVT missiles. Hopefully this synergy is extended further and we see more Rafales in both IN and IAF service. Cost synergies will be tremendous, if we streamline our weapons and their platforms.

[avishar]

Yes Astra was the biggest news. Also the official announcement of the Land Attack Cruise Missile which is basically from the Nirbhay program.

[R2D2]

And then I come across this article this morning:

India is ready to abandon the Su-57 and focus on buying the American F-35

Reminds me of that saying - "Where there is smoke there is a fire"

I really have to wonder about the $$ layout for this white elephant. F16/F21 may have been a more practical option with Lockheed Martin and Tata's JV manufacturing the fighter locally.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by R2D2

And then I come across this article this morning:

India is ready to abandon the Su-57 and focus on buying the American F-35

Reminds me of that saying - "Where there is smoke there is a fire"

I really have to wonder about the $$ layout for this white elephant. F16/F21 may have been a more practical option with Lockheed Martin and Tata's JV manufacturing the fighter locally.

Thank you for sharing. Always makes interesting reading. I believe, as far as the F-35 goes, these are planted articles from either US Govt or Lockheed Martin or who knows Indian intelligence agencies!!!

[dragracer567]

Other than the platforms already discussed, another UCAV platform which I believe was already in contention is the General Atomics Avenger (or the Predator C) which I believe still isn’t operational yet but was aggressively marketed to India. Infact, the Indian armed forces themselves were eager to buy as many as 100 of these as per media reports back then (source). It’s basically like the predator and reaper drones but with turbo fan engines while having avionics and stealth from the F35. This is quite an unique platform though it’s upto the Indian armed forces to decide if it makes sense for them.



And coming to the F35, I believe it’s actually cheaper than the rafale and the eurofighter to buy right now thanks to economies of scale and will continue to get cheaper. Also, we should keep in mind that it’s meant to replace a plethora of American fighters ranging from the F16s, Older F15s, harriers and older hornets and become the main aircraft for American air power, so I really don’t think it’s as fragile as it’s portrayed (unlike the F22).

The main problem with buying a F35 is that we’ll end up having one too many platforms. But then again the AMCA could very well drag into the 2040s given the record of HAL, so do we really want to go that long without a decently stealth aircraft when the Chinese already have one? The Chinese could even share the J-31 platform with the Pakistanis.

Perhaps, the F35s could be bought as a replacement for the Jaguars i.e as deep penetration strikers (I don’t know if it has the range though) since the jaguar won’t fly for more than 10 years, even the upgraded ones. The AMCA could replace the mirages, Mig 29s and early Tejas models while a new sixth gen fighter could replace the Su30s, rafales and later tejas models (this is really into the future). I think we should be ready to atleast consider having the F35s. Regarding American betrayals, we should keep in mind that each country who the Americans abandoned were either dictatorships or unstable governments (plus the Pakistanis were playing a double game with the Americans). India is neither of those. We should perhaps compare more with countries like Malaysia and Indonesia who use American equipment but aren’t necessarily dependent on them.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

I personally hope we do not move ahead on the F-35 and we stick to more Rafales. French are way more reliable strategic partners than Americans.

Agreed. See what happened to Turkey - they got booted out of the F-35 programme because of "political" & "security" reasons. The four F-35s that were ready for delivery to the TuAF were not delivered. Amidst all this F-35 discussions, we are buying 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30MKIs from Russia. It is only a matter of time before the US invokes the ghost of CAATSA over this. Even if we go ahead and buy US built fighters, there is no guarantee of lifetime,sanction free support to the fleet. It is better to stick to the reliable French or Russians.

Among the bonanza of arms buy that was announced yesterday, does anyone know what "upgrades to existing 59 MiG-29s meant" ? The legacy MiG-29s of the IAF have all been upgraded to 29UPG standards. Does it mean the Navy's MiG-29Ks are getting upgraded?

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Also the Aim-54 is also a heavy long-range AAM is meant for slow lumbering aircraft like maritime patrol and attack bombers. The only reason they were able to shoot down Iraqi warplanes in the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s was that the Iraqis has no Radar warning receivers to enable them to dodge the missiles.

The AIM-54As delivered to the IIAF were of the same range as the US Navy's and not all of the 400+ ordered were delivered to Iran. Many of them were sabotaged as the Americans contractors left in a hurry after the Iranian Revolution.

The Iranian F-14s lacked the IR sensor mounted in their usual chin pod on US Navy F-14As. The IIAF wanted the still under development TCS on their TOmcats in its place. Soon after the Iranian revolution happened and Iranian F-14s neither got the TCS nor did they have IR sensors on the nose.

Secondly the AWG-9s on Iranian Tomcats were a slightly downgraded version with lower ECCM capability especially against Western aircraft. Against Soviet aircraft, it apparently worked perfectly. Soon after delivery, an Iranian F-14 intercepted a Soviet MiG-25R overflying Iranian airspace at 65,000 feet. The AWG-9 radar of the Tomcat achieved full lock on and was ready to guide an AIM-54 straight to the Target. That was the end of of Soviet overflights over Iran.

Iraqi aircraft were certainly equipped with RWRs. The Su-22s, MiG-23MF/ML and MiG-25 most certainly were, not sure about the MiG-21s. There were times when Iraqi aircraft aborted their mission as soon as they were painted by IRIAF Tomcats. The Iraqis were pretty much helpless to engage Iranian Tomcats till the arrival of Mirage F1EQs from France. IRIAF Tomcats managed to bring down Iraqi aircraft with AIM-54s inspite of having trouble keeping their Tomcat's AWG-9s operational and AIM-54s functional

Originally Posted by Foxbat

In the 1991 gulf war the Aim-54 was fired at Iraqi fighter aircraft 3 times and missed every time.

The AIM-54 had only three confirmed launches and no confirmed targets destroyed in US Navy service.

During Operation Desert Storm however, US Navy F-14 did not fire even a single AIM-54. USAF F-15s had responsibility for overland combat air patrol duties in Operation Desert Storm in 1991, primarily because of the onboard F-15 IFF capabilities. The Tomcat did not have the requisite IFF capability to satisfy the rules of engagement to utilize the Phoenix capability at beyond visual range. Political reasons have also been attributed to limiting aerial engagements involving F-14s during the Gulf War. According to accounts from US Navy pilots, Navy F-14s were called off from Iraqi aircraft so that other coalition fighters could engage them. One event used to support this notion occurred on 24 January 1991, when a U.S. Air force E-3 Sentry did not inform U.S. naval units of a pair of Iraqi Mirage F-1EQs that flew into the Persian Gulf. RSAF F-15s were vectored instead of F-14s that were in a better position to shoot down the Iraqi fighters. The E-3 could not directly contact the F-14s in a timely manner since they were under the control of a US Navy Cruiser, which was not able to get a clear radar picture to accurately vector the F-14s.

The only air-victory of a US Navy Tomcat in the First Gulf War was the shooting down of an Iraqi Army Mi-8 Hip helicopter. The helo came across a pair of VF-1 F-14As and was downed with an AIM-9 Sidewinder missile.

During Operation Southern Watch, US Navy F-14s fired AIM-54s at Iraqi MiG-25 and MiG-23 that looked as if they were headed to the UN enforced No-Fly Zone but failed to score hits.