[ads11]

What I'd like to know is if there's any chance that this deal could fall through? The reason I ask is because Airbus have a pretty miserable (to say the least) record with Indian procurement programmes. Given how their slam dunk tanker proposal has been subjected to the traditional Indian cycle of reincarnation under different programme guises and through different departments, I'd wager that there's going to be very cautious celebration at Airbus offices. BUT, if this is a proper win for them with no going back, then kudos to Airbus at long last having a military export success on the subcontinent. The Avro's are workhorses that are very long in the tooth now and the C-295 is a mature and capable platform.

If I were Airbus, I'd really try and push through the tanker deal asap while they have some momentum in the corridors of the procurement mandarins. Strike while the iron is hot and all that.

Given the recent spotlight on the capabilities of airlift platforms (C-17) and the very visible usage in Afghanistan, it's unsurprising then that the Cabinet Committee on Security greenlit this deal - the impact transport platforms have was made abundantly clear. I guess with long floundering and languishing procurement sagas, the only option then for the end user to inject a sense of urgency is to make a concerted push towards the civilian decision makers on the back of incidents that serve to highlight the implicit need for whatever the desired materiel and/or platform is.

[vikasshu]

There is a new breed of Indian photographers who are into Aviation photography. Some of my favorites are:

https://www.instagram.com/neel385/

https://www.instagram.com/aviationwall/

https://www.instagram.com/deb_rana/

https://www.instagram.com/praneethfranklin/

https://www.instagram.com/rd_aviationphotography/

https://www.instagram.com/vishaljolapara/

https://www.instagram.com/kedarsclix/

There may be many more that I am currently not aware of. So please forgive me if I have missed out any of the talented ones.

Here is a recent pic from neel385 of upgraded Baaz / MiG-29UPG

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

What I'd like to know is if there's any chance that this deal could fall through? The reason I ask is because Airbus have a pretty miserable (to say the least) record with Indian procurement programmes. Given how their slam dunk tanker proposal has been subjected to the traditional Indian cycle of reincarnation under different programme guises and through different departments, I'd wager that there's going to be very cautious celebration at Airbus offices. BUT, if this is a proper win for them with no going back, then kudos to Airbus at long last having a military export success on the subcontinent. The Avro's are workhorses that are very long in the tooth now and the C-295 is a mature and capable platform.

If I were Airbus, I'd really try and push through the tanker deal asap while they have some momentum in the corridors of the procurement mandarins. Strike while the iron is hot and all that.

I believe the next step would be the signing of the contract. I guess that's just a formality now with the final approval being given by the cabinet. The contract will probably be signed in the presence of EU/Spanish officials or even Heads of Governments given the number of units.

I don't think the tankers are coming anytime soon except as a lease order which the Air Force can procure using its own financial powers and then purchase the aircrafts outright later (somewhat similar to what the UK did). More than momentum, it also depends on potential post-COVID economic performance of the country (which will affect the budget) and how the theaterisation exercise will turn out for the Air Force given the recent comments of the CDS delegating the Air Force to a support force of the Army akin to the artillery (may sound extreme but stranger things have happened in India).

[V.Narayan]

IAF considering purchase of 24 second hand Mirage 2000 aircraft

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...836620386.html

Apparently 13 will be used as fleet additions and 11 for spares. Adding to our Mirage 2000 fleet is not a bad thing by itself. It has proved repeatedly to being our most available and reliable fighter aircraft. Given that the present administration has shown sense and decision taking ability in matters of defence I hope we select a common aircraft for the IAF and IN and achieve economies of scale.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Apparently 13 will be used as fleet additions and 11 for spares. Adding to our Mirage 2000 fleet is not a bad thing by itself. It has proved repeatedly to being our most available and reliable fighter aircraft. Given that the present administration has shown sense and decision taking ability in matters of defence I hope we select a common aircraft for the IAF and IN and achieve economies of scale.

Better late than never. I don't know why IAF brass/Govt/bureaucrats used to insist on buying shiny new birds all these years. Cynic in me says likelihood of 'under the table' business is higher with new multi-billion dollar aircraft contracts.

Meanwhile, PAF has frequently taken the "pre-owned" fighter aircraft route, especially with their Mirage III/V fleet.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Better late than never. I don't know why IAF brass/Govt/bureaucrats used to insist on buying shiny new birds all these years. Cynic in me says likelihood of 'under the table' business is higher with new multi-billion dollar aircraft contracts.

Meanwhile, PAF has frequently taken the "pre-owned" fighter aircraft route, especially with their Mirage III/V fleet.

Given what it takes to maintain a fast jet, which even in a training sortie flies with structural & engine stress levels several times greater than an airliner, I would stick to brand new as far as is possible. A second hand machine does bring the advantage of being much cheaper but it comes at the cost of investment in maintenance and availability factors. The Mirage 2000 is a good candidate for a second hand purchase given its excellent built-in designed-in maintainability and availability characteristics. And yes in our knives drawn environment of CBI,CAG,CVC culture no bureaucrat or military officer would want to risk his life on second hand machines if they fail to perform as promise. Regretfully with CVC, CAG our decision making, even the competent & well meant parts, are held hostage to the understanding and life experience of a junior auditor/accountant who has never worked in senior positions or executed big projects - this is what I learn from batch mates and relatives in senior Govt positions.

Yes the PAF did invest a great deal in second-hand Mirage III, V, F-16s & Breguet Atlantique but that could also be a function of political and budgetary neccessity.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

And yes in our knives drawn environment of CBI,CAG,CVC culture no bureaucrat or military officer would want to risk his life on second hand machines if they fail to perform as promise. Regretfully with CVC, CAG our decision making, even the competent & well meant parts, are held hostage to the understanding and life experience of a junior auditor/accountant who has never worked in senior positions or executed big projects - this is what I learn from batch mates and relatives in senior Govt positions.

Great point! This just about sums up the bottleneck that our government machinery creates and agonizes over, while other countries race forward to achieve their objectives.

[wildsdi5530]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Given what it takes to maintain a fast jet, which even in a training sortie flies with structural & engine stress levels several times greater than an airliner, I would stick to brand new as far as is possible. A second hand machine does bring the advantage of being much cheaper but it comes at the cost of investment in maintenance and availability factors.

Do new airplanes come with a warranty and free services like a new car? First 3 free service is not being offered even in cars nowadays.

I would say buying a second hand airplane with it's tools and dies would help our industries manufacture spares and also help R&D by reverse engineering. But pardon me if what I say makes no sense, I know nothing about these things.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by wildsdi5530

Do new airplanes come with a warranty and free services like a new car? First 3 free service is not being offered even in cars nowadays.

No free services. Though there would be a warranty for some parts for varying periods. Sometimes in civil airliners the engines are sold with very very strong warranties in favour of the airline/buyer. One cannot compare a fast jet combat aircraft with cars. The two are as different as a pond is from the sea. Just the landing gear of a civil airliner is more complex than the whole car.

I would say buying a second hand airplane with it's tools and dies would help our industries manufacture spares and also help R&D by reverse engineering. But pardon me if what I say makes no sense, I know nothing about these things.

To make such a proposal work you should be buying 300 to 400+ of those second-hand machines and set up a whole eco-system for an asset with a limited shelf life. You might as well get into license assembly/build arrangements for a new machine. Second hand purchases work in small quantities where you need to fill in attrition or bolster a fleet on the margin. Reverse engineering cannot work ab initio for one aircraft. China makes reverse engineering work because for 60 years literally they have built an industry, R&D base, technical training and eco-system around reverse engineering in aerospace and other military hardware. It sounds simple now but bear in mind it took them 25 years to reverse engineer the early MiG-21 models and about 12 years to reverse engineer the MiG-19. Hope this helps.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

IAF considering purchase of 24 second hand Mirage 2000 aircraft

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...836620386.html

Apparently 13 will be used as fleet additions and 11 for spares. Adding to our Mirage 2000 fleet is not a bad thing by itself. It has proved repeatedly to being our most available and reliable fighter aircraft. Given that the present administration has shown sense and decision taking ability in matters of defence I hope we select a common aircraft for the IAF and IN and achieve economies of scale.

So many of the articles released yesterday say that the used Mirage 2000s will just be used for spares and won't fly again.

None of these aircraft would be used for flying and they are being acquired to help improve the serviceability of around 50 Mirage-2000s in the Indian fleet, sources said.

New Delhi: In a step that will help in sustaining its fleet of Mirage-2000 fighter aircraft, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has signed a contract to buy phased out Mirages of the French Air Force, as per government sources.

This is the second such agreement that the Indian Air Force has signed for buying okayed airframes that will help one of the most potent aircraft fleets to continue for longer in service. “A squadron of the French Mirage jets had been phased out some time ago. On August 31, a contract was signed for acquiring these phased-out planes to improve the spares and airframe capability to help improve the serviceability of the around 50 Mirage-2000s in the Indian fleet,” government sources said.

None of these aircraft would be used for flying, sources said. The aircraft would be supplied in containers to the Indian Air Force.

Source: https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-sig....rcraft/735904/

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

So many of the articles released yesterday say that the used Mirage 2000s will just be used for spares and won't fly again.
None of these aircraft would be used for flying, sources said. The aircraft would be supplied in containers to the Indian Air Force.

May be, may be not. With regard to public press release on matters of defence one can never be sure what part is disinformation and what part is not. Or what is real news pretending to be disinformation! Either way it is a useful move. In hope of more Rafale sales/license assembly Dassault will I'm sure be pleased to organize more second hand machines.

[Foxbat]

With the purchase of of 2nd hand Mirage 2000s a recent topic I thought its a good idea to post my recently completed 1/72 Scale Indian Air Force Mirage 2000H of the No.1 Tigers Squadron based in Gwalior.





Couldn't help notice Dassault PR is in full swing and their page of the Mirage 2000 shows an upgraded IAF two seater: https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en...t/mirage-2000/

[dragracer567]

China has claimed that it has finally managed to equip its J-20 stealth fighters with its own domestic WS-10 engines operationally and apparently the aircraft with the new engines was put on show in Chinese city of Zhuhai yesterday. Infact, they claim that a unit of the J-20 with domestic engines has already been activated in the North-East of the country. Apparently the WS-10 engines would give the J-20 low supercruise ability. Till now, operational J-20s used to run the Russian Saturn AL-31 engines.

If true, the Chinese have really achieved a milestone as very few countries have the ability to design and manufacture their own jet engines. Regardless of how much truth exists in China's claims, can't help but be awed at the pace of development that China has achieved, this is not an aircraft still on paper like the Tejas Mk-2 or AMCA but an aircraft that's actually flying.

Source: CNN

Image: A J-20 stealth fighter jet performs during the 13th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, also known as Airshow China 2021 on September 28, 2021. Source: CNN

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

China has claimed that it has finally managed to equip its J-20 stealth fighters with its own domestic WS-10 engines operationally and apparently the aircraft with the new engines was put on show in Chinese city of Zhuhai yesterday. Infact, they claim that a unit of the J-20 with domestic engines has already been activated in the North-East of the country. Apparently the WS-10 engines would give the J-20 low supercruise ability.

I think the same article also quotes that the US Military experts believe that the J-20's stealth capabilities are equivalent to the earlier generation F117 Nighthawk (now semi-retired).

[shortbread]

Quite a lot of the Middle East nations own Mirage 2000s, most of whom have good relations with India. They must be looking to retire these, eg. UAE transferred a batch to the Iraqi Air Force.

Considering they must have seen relatively low flying hours/action vis a vis most other major Air Forces, the Indian Govt. could look into procuring this to add 2-3 squadrons for immediate/near-immediate induction.