[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Can't help but compare that to US soldiers ex- Iraq and ex-Afghanistan who almost all seem to suffer from PSTD. My father and both his brothers served in the armed forces and served through '62, '65 and '71 and never seem to have PSTD.

On a related note, my sister has a very good friend who belongs to the family of a decorated IAF senior officer ('71 vet). He recounted an incident from sometime in the 80s , where a family of a pilot across the border who was killed in an aerial engagement in the 71 war, wanted to meet this gentleman in person. After some diplomatic maneuvers, this was arranged in Delhi. The meeting was brief, very courteous, but apparently necessary for that family to achieve closure after so many years.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

On a related note ... but apparently necessary for that family to achieve closure after so many years.

Yes this is very important for the family especially if they could not get back the body. Two anecdotes from 1971 from my family. My father's younger brother was killed 2 days before the war ended on a mission inside West Pakistan on the western side of the Ravi river. I was quite young but recall clearly the anguish of my grandmother about retrieving his body As the war ended less than 48 ours later the Indian Army finally did get his body back and we managed to perform his last rites. He was 26 years old and was decorated for valour. An aspect of the lives of our brave Armed Forces people which we armchair warriors don't understand is the uncertainty the families live with. While the elder Brother with the IAF got to know within a few hours my father being out at sea only learnt of it a fortnight later when his ship docked back long after the cremation was done.

On a lighter vein my father grew a beard, for the first and last time in his life, while at sea those 30 days. My mother freaked out when he returned and made him shave it off before he would be served lunch that morning. Poor man shaved clean right there and then. I think he suffered more trauma with that than any PSTD the Pakistani's could have done to him. Here he thought he would get a returning warriors welcome but instead got a scolding

[vamsi.kona]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

An aspect of the lives of our brave Armed Forces people which we armchair warriors don't understand is the uncertainty the families live with.

This is what I want to remind anyone who says let us go to war or take war lightly and shout of revenge and what not sitting in the comfort of their homes. The moment they are willing to volunteer themselves or their children for the cause of war they would understand the depth of such act.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

On a lighter vein my father grew a beard, for the first and last time in his life, while at sea those 30 days. My mother freaked out when he returned and made him shave it off before he would be served lunch that morning. Poor man shaved clean right there and then. I think he suffered more trauma with that than any PSTD the Pakistani's could have done to him. Here he thought he would get a returning warriors welcome but instead got a scolding

Mothers are mothers, especially Indian one's who can scold a 65 year old for not having food on time, while they themselves never bothering to do the same.

Can't imagine the emotions that your grandmother would have gone through, having lost a son but happy to see the other one safe.

[Jeroen]

NEW DELHI, May 29 (Reuters) - India has filed a graft case against Britain's BAE Systems plc (BAES.L) and Rolls-Royce Holdings (RR.L) for "criminal conspiracy" in the procurement and licensed manufacturing of 123 Hawk 115 advanced jet trainers, a document showed

Came across this one liner, anybody more insights what this is all about?

Jeroen

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Came across this one liner, anybody more insights what this is all about?

Jeroen

As per the CBI's statement,

CBI registered a case against British Aerospace company Rolls Royce India Pvt Ltd, Tim Jones, Director Rolls Royce India Pvt Ltd and private individuals Sudhir Chuadhrie and Bhanu Chaudharie and other "unknown" public servants and private persons with the objective to cheat the Government of India in the matter of procurement of Hawk Aircraft from Rolls Royce plc, UK and its associate group companies, including M/s Rolls Royce Turbomeca Limited.

The "unknown" public servants abused their official positions as public servants and approved & procured a total number of 24 Hawk 115 Advance Jet Trainer (AJT) aircraft for GBP 734.21 million, besides permitting licence manufacturing of 42 additional aircraft by M/s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) against materials supplied by the said manufacturer for an additional amount of USD 308.247 million for the said 42 License Manufactured aircraft and USD 7.5 million towards Manufacturer's Licence Fee, in lieu of huge bribes, commissions and kickbacks paid by the said manufacturer and its officers to intermediaries.

An article from 2003 - Defence Ministry clears procurement of Hawk AJT

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Came across this one liner, anybody more insights what this is all about?

Jeroen

Today's Times of India provides some background information. Apparently, the case is quite old and the arms dealer in question has been arrested by UK authorities on a previous occasion. I doubt if there have been any defence import deals signed by India that haven't involved allegations of corruption!

Could the fresh development in the case be linked to business rivalry between GE and Rolls Royce? Both have offered engines for the AMCA programme.

https://www.firstpost.com/world/roll...-12431012.html

Sudhir Choudhrie is an Indian-born and London-based international businessman who has been booked by the CBI for alleged corruption in the procurement of Hawk 115 Advanced Jet Trainer Aircraft in 2004. He is accused of conspiring with Rolls Royce, its former India Director Tim Jones, British Aerospace Systems (BAE Systems), and unknown public servants to deceive the Indian government and receive bribes, commissions, and kickbacks. The CBI FIR also claimed 100 million pounds were paid by Russian arms companies into a Swiss bank account (No. 120467) in the name of Portsmouth, a company associated with Sudhir Choudhrie for defence deals with Russia for purchase of MIG fighter aircraft.

Choudhrie was born in Delhi, India in 1949. He studied economics at the University of Delhi and then worked as a businessman in India. In the 1980s, he moved to the UK and set up a number of businesses, including a property company and a healthcare company. He also became involved in politics, and he donated money to the Labour Party.

In the 1990s, Choudhrie began to get involved in defence deals. He was involved in the deal to supply Hawk fighter jets to India, and he was also involved in a deal to supply artillery guns to the Indian Army. These deals were controversial, and there were allegations that Choudhrie had paid bribes to Indian officials in order to secure them.

In 2006, the CBI raided Choudhrie's offices in India. The CBI was investigating allegations of corruption in the Hawk fighter jet deal. Choudhrie was not arrested, but he was questioned by the CBI. In 2011, the SFO opened an investigation into Choudhrie. The SFO was investigating allegations that Choudhrie had paid bribes to Indian officials in order to secure the artillery gun deal. Choudhrie was arrested in London in 2014, but he was released on bail. The SFO investigation is still ongoing.

Sudhir Choudhrie has a son named Bhanu Choudhrie, who is also an arms dealer and has been booked by the CBI along with his father in the same case. Sudhir Choudhrie has faced previous investigations by the CBI and the Enforcement Directorate in other defence deals, such as the Soltam deal to upgrade 130-mm field guns and the Barak missile deal. Choudhrie has denied all allegations of corruption. He has said that he is a legitimate businessman and that he has never paid bribes to anyone.

Other business interests of Sudhir Choudhrie:

Healthcare: He is the founder of Alpha C&C Group, a holding company for investments in healthcare, aviation, and hospitality. He also founded Alpha Hospitals, a chain of mental health facilities in the UK.

Aviation: He has been involved in the aviation industry since the 1990s. He also served as a director of Deccan Aviation Ltd and Kingfisher Airlines.

Link to report about his arrest in UK:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-r...A1D12620140214

Link to The Times of India report:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/.../100610573.cms

[lancia_fanboy]

The Mig21s which were grounded after the Rajasthan Mishap a few weeks ago have been cleared to fly again.

God knows when will we finally retire them.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...471455602.html

[V.Narayan]

GE may start making fighter aircraft engines in India, deal likely during PM Modi's US visit

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other...3c27c1a6&ei=47

India and the United States are likely to announce the manufacturing of fighter aircraft engines by General Electric (GE) in India, during the visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi two weeks later. The process has been lingering since 2012 over the transfer of technologies. With its production starting in India, all future fighter aircraft, including Tejas Mk II will be powered with the GE F414 engines. The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) will also be equipped with the same engine. In March this year, US Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall announced that the United States is willing to go for full transfer of technology with India.

The visit of US Defence Secretary Llyod Austin seems to be focused on two big items - the F414 engine and declaring India as a major non-NATO ally or NATO+.

If the first goes through which it seems it will then this moment will be as monumental as the Soviet Union offering license production of the MiG-21 in 1963-1964 and simultaneously offering us 4 Foxtrot class submarines. If the F414 indeed comes to India it will become our standard engine for Tejas Mk II, Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft and the proposed twin engined machine.

Fast combat jet engines are like the holy grail in the world of military aviation. Only 5 nations design & build their own fighter jet engines - USA, UK, France, China and Russia. And even here Russia has not come up with any new design since 1991. So, this will be a significant trust building gesture.

As for NATO+ I think India would like to be close to that where access to technology and weapons goes without the implied obligation of getting sucked into every future war the Americans insist on starting. As NATO is not viewed favourable in much of the Global South it could be that India will defer this to another day. But then who knows. In an earlier era even though our courtship with USSR was underway at full steam by 1963 we finally signed a treaty of friendship only 8 years later in August 1971 when war with Pakistan was imminent and we need an insurance to protect us from China.

The GE F414 engine:

Dry (or military) thrust: 5900 kgf
Reheat thrust:10,000 kgf
Specific fuel consumption: 0.84 kgs/ hour/ kgf dry thrust or 1.80 kgs/hour/kgf at full reheat.
Overall pressure ratio: 30:1

The GE F414 engine.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

GE may start making fighter aircraft engines in India, deal likely during PM Modi's US visit

Significant news indeed. Had seen word on the twitter grapevine the last week or so that this engine deal was a key pillar of SecDef Austin's visit. Just have a few questions.

Doing some back of the envelope maths, looks like the dry thrust of the F-404 vs F-414 is as follows:

F-404 = 48.9 kN (4986 kgf)
F-414 = 57.8 kN (5894 kgf)

So clearly the dry thrust of the later iteration being offered is higher. Given one of the complaints against the naval Tejas was it being underpowered, I wonder if we can't just retrofit the F-414s inside to make a B-spec so to speak.

The F414 engine was originally envisioned as not using any materials or processes not used in the F404, and was designed to fit in the same footprint as the F404..
The F414 uses the core and full-authority digital engine control (FADEC) from the F412, and the low-pressure system from the YF120 engine developed for the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition. One of the major differences between the F404 and the F414 is the fan section. The F414 fan is larger than that of the F404, but smaller than the F412 fan. The larger fan increases the engine airflow by 16% and is 5 inches (13 cm) longer. To keep the F414 in the same envelope, or space occupied in the airframe, as the F404, the afterburner section was shortened by 4 in (10 cm) and the combustor shortened by 1 in (2.5 cm).

Just looking at the above from the wiki page for the F-414, just how difficult would it be to swap out the F-404s for the upgraded engine in the Mk1A airframes at least?

Being able to field uprated naval Tejas even if only 80% of the desired capability is worth a lot more than a 100% desired capability platform that is N+1 number of years away from being operationally fielded by the IN.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by ads11

I wonder if we can't just retrofit the F-414s inside to make a B-spec so to speak.

Just looking at the above from the wiki page for the F-414, just how difficult would it be to swap out the F-404s for the upgraded engine in the Mk1A airframes at least?

Being able to field uprated naval Tejas even if only 80% of the desired capability is worth a lot more than a 100% desired capability platform that is N+1 number of years away from being operationally fielded by the IN.

You make a very valid point here. Simplistically put length of both engines is 154 inches & diameter 35 inches. Weights too are almost identical at 1035 kgs dry for the 404 vs 1110 kgs dry for the 414. But before swap compatibility can be determined we will need to check out the interfaces between aircraft systems and engine and whether the Tejas in its design has this convenient reengining competence designed in or was the interface too custom made for the 404. But with effort I would think it can be done.

While like most Indians of my generation I had a special place for the Soviets in my heart but the harsh realities of today are light years different from 1963 and I believe to counter a truly malevolent China and a Russia that will soon be a Chinese vassal state we need to realign ourselves with the Americans without becoming a member of any NATO like machinery. Given that the American lead has diminished dramatically over the last decade I believe the Americans will accommodate our independent stance while sharing their technology with us. They are learning to understand that ours will have to be a special equation and not like the ones they have with say Belgium or Australia. The times they are a changing.

Said this before and I'll risk saying it again - an American blessed SSN {nuclear powered attack boat} project is our best bet to develop a real capable SSN. I think that will come one day in the near future.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

You make a very valid point here. Simplistically put length of both engines is 154 inches & diameter 35 inches. Weights too are almost identical at 1035 kgs dry for the 404 vs 1110 kgs dry for the 414. But before swap compatibility can be determined we will need to check out the interfaces between aircraft systems and engine and whether the Tejas in its design has this convenient reengining competence designed in or was the interface too custom made for the 404. But with effort I would think it can be done.

Thanks for the explanation. It just feels like it isn't outside the realm of possibility (granted this is very much outsiders gyaan on my part - it could be a no go in reality). Would be good to see if it does somehow work, would give a good boost to what already exists and is in production.

While like most Indians of my generation I had a special place for the Soviets in my heart but the harsh realities of today are light years different from 1963 and I believe to counter a truly malevolent China and a Russia that will soon be a Chinese vassal state we need to realign ourselves with the Americans without becoming a member of any NATO like machinery. Given that the American lead has diminished dramatically over the last decade I believe the Americans will accommodate our independent stance while sharing their technology with us. They are learning to understand that ours will have to be a special equation and not like the ones they have with say Belgium or Australia. The times they are a changing.

I think Indians do need to realise that the consequences of the Russian invasion will drastically change Russia's trajectory for the near, medium and long term and that there's no way around it. In fairness India has only looked out for number one, its own interests, in the aftermath and that for one is a sentiment that unsurprisingly the US body politic can relate to. No wonder then that increasing numbers of the US body politic are changing their stance with regard to India, with a lot less of the lecturing that less heftier members of the Global South still get subjected to regularly. Fortunately the entrenched non alignment thinking in our body politic established since independence by PM Nehru has uniquely positioned India quite well to react to the sort of challenges in an increasingly fluid geostrategic picture we find ourselves in.

Said this before and I'll risk saying it again - an American blessed SSN {nuclear powered attack boat} project is our best bet to develop a real capable SSN. I think that will come one day in the near future.

Without diverging from this thread, this would be quite something to say the least, probably more eyebrow raising than AUKUS. I'll continue this one on the relevant thread..

[ads11]

Been meaning to share this piece I read a few weeks ago but never could work out where makes most sense to share it.

Anyway, it makes an interesting supposition and that's the potential for India to fill the void that a Russian withdrawal from the value end of the global arms sector would create.

https://warontherocks.com/2022/05/he...e-arms-market/

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

If the first goes through which it seems it will then this moment will be as monumental as the Soviet Union offering license production of the MiG-21 in 1963-1964 and simultaneously offering us 4 Foxtrot class submarines.

India became interested in and chose the MiG 21 (much to the disappointment and irritation of the western world) because the Soviet Union offered its license production in India which was a unique precedent as all our combat aircraft till then had been of western origin and not produced in India. The decision to license-produce the MiG 21 was taken in the belief that we would become self-reliant, a goal we have been wanting to achieve ever since we became independent. The same thinking led us to conceive and implement the Marut fighter jet project, although we barely had the requisite resources or manpower then.

At the time of the MiG 21 deal, PM Nehru had beautifully announced in the Rajya Sabha, "it was more practical to have the capacity to manufacture a second-rate thing in one's own country than to buy a first-rate thing from outside."

So, although "atma-nirbharta" or self-reliance has always been our goal, it is pertinent to ask why we have failed to achieve it. License production of the MiG 21 in India did not make us self-reliant; we always remained dependent on the Soviets for MiG spares whose supply had interruptions! In fact, all versions of the MiG 21 operated by IAF (PF, FL, PFM, M, MF, BIS, etc.) had their origin in the Soviet Union, not in India. [The abbreviations of IAF's MiG 21 versions stand for Russian words; so PF is the abbreviation for Perekhvatchik ("Interceptor") Forsirovannyy ("Uprated") and so on!] Unlike the Chinese, we didn't develop any derivative plane out of the MiG 21, in spite of over 800 units having served the IAF over six decades. Even the development of the latest version Bison was outsourced to the Russians. We also license-manufactured the Jaguar in Bangalore for decades, yet recently ended up procuring 31 mothballed Jaguars from the France for spare part harvesting! Why did the need arise? I doubt if the position with respect to Su30 is any different, notwithstanding the tall claims that HAL has been producing the plane from raw material stage!

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

If the F414 indeed comes to India it will become our standard engine for Tejas Mk II, Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft and the proposed twin engined machine.

If there is a genuine transfer of technology such that F414 becomes to Indian military aviation industry what the Fiat 1.3 Multijet was to Indian car industry, then the forthcoming deal with US can indeed be considered a landmark moment in the history of Indian defence production. However, if it results merely in kit assembly (like we seem to have been doing since the past 6 decades), it hardly calls for any celebration.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Fast combat jet engines are like the holy grail in the world of military aviation. Only 5 nations design & build their own fighter jet engines - USA, UK, France, China and Russia. And even here Russia has not come up with any new design since 1991. So, this will be a significant trust building gesture.

It's interesting that the Soviets (who apparently did not have jet engine technology at the time) purchased the Rolls Royce RB 41 Nene engine from Britain in 1940s and then went on to reverse engineer the same to develop the Klimov VK-1 that powered the hugely successful MiG 15. The Soviets haven't looked back since then! Later, the Chinese took a similar route but we didn't!

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

As for NATO+ I think India would like to be close to that where access to technology and weapons goes without the implied obligation of getting sucked into every future war the Americans insist on starting. As NATO is not viewed favourable in much of the Global South it could be that India will defer this to another day. But then who knows. In an earlier era even though our courtship with USSR was underway at full steam by 1963 we finally signed a treaty of friendship only 8 years later in August 1971 when war with Pakistan was imminent and we need an insurance to protect us from China.

I think we need to avoid a situation where our dependence on Russia is merely replaced with dependence on US/Europe. In matters of national security, there can be no substitute for self-reliance. It's probably impossible to attain 100% self reliance but we should at least avoid situations where we have to run abroad for parts that we were supposedly producing in our own country!

There's a nice article in today's Indian Express on the subject written by Admiral Arun Prakash. Here's the link:

https://indianexpress.com/article/op...ssion-8665373/

Also posting portions of an article written by Ian C. C. Graham in the journal Asian Survey, May, 1964 regarding India's MiG 21 deal with USSR which was signed just before the Chinese attack of 20 October, 1962. There are some interesting statements about the Indian goal of self-reliance. Do have a look!

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by ads11

So clearly the dry thrust of the later iteration being offered is higher. Given one of the complaints against the naval Tejas was it being underpowered, I wonder if we can't just retrofit the F-414s inside to make a B-spec so to speak. Just looking at the above from the wiki page for the F-414, just how difficult would it be to swap out the F-404s for the upgraded engine in the Mk1A airframes at least?

The reason F-414 was considered for the Tejas was that the IOC version turned out to be heavier in weight (6.5 tonnes dry weight) than it was intended to be (5.5 tonnes), affecting the power to weight ratio, performance and payload (3 tonnes instead of 4). Subsequently, a weight reduction exercise was undertaken whereby the weight was reduced to 6 tonnes and payload increased to 3.5 tonnes. Therefore, the need for using F414 in Tejas Mk1A is less strong now. Incorporating F414 would also require redesigning the air intakes (as 414 requires more air) which would involve fresh testing and involve delay.

Originally Posted by ads11

Being able to field uprated naval Tejas even if only 80% of the desired capability is worth a lot more than a 100% desired capability platform that is N+1 number of years away from being operationally fielded by the IN.

I could be wrong but I think the reason the Navy doesn't want Tejas is that it is not twin engined.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by directinjection

The reason F-414 was considered for the Tejas was that the IOC version turned out to be heavier in weight (6.5 tonnes dry weight) than it was intended to be (5.5 tonnes), affecting the power to weight ratio, performance and payload (3 tonnes instead of 4). Subsequently, a weight reduction exercise was undertaken whereby the weight was reduced to 6 tonnes and payload increased to 3.5 tonnes. Therefore, the need for using F414 in Tejas Mk1A is less strong now. Incorporating F414 would also require redesigning the air intakes (as 414 requires more air) which would involve fresh testing and involve delay.

Thanks! I wasn't aware of the weight travails. That explains quite a bit. So I take it that the slight weight loss meant the power to weight ratio came closer to what was desired using the F404 itself?

I can understand that changing the air intakes is a significant enough step that you'd need to revisit the aerodynamics again and that it would be a lot harder than just simply finding a way to cram the F414 inside the engine bay. One need only look at how minor changes of sidepod configuration on F1 cars can radically impact the entire aero of the car, so can only imagine how tricky it would be on a whole plane.

I could be wrong but I think the reason the Navy doesn't want Tejas is that it is not twin engined.

Oh yeah, I know IN top brass seem to share the bloody mindedness of their colleagues elsewhere in refusing to countenance any single engined fixed wing platforms with naval roundels. Shame really, to borrow and paraphrase the quote of Nehru's you used earlier, it sure would've been better to have a second rate product made in country than waiting to buy a first rate product from outside.