[libranof1987]

Originally Posted by the_skyliner

Another Jet airways plane skids off the runway:

Wow. Really sloppy.

Jet Airways flight from Riyadh to Mumbai that aborted takeoff last week at the Riyadh airport was not even on the runway when the incident took place, Saudi officials said today.

The flight, a Boeing 737 aircraft carrying 141 passengers and seven crew members, attempted taking off on a taxiway that ran parallel to the runway, the Saudi Aviation Investigation Bureau (AIB) has said in a new statement. A taxiway is a pathway that links terminals, parking bays, runways and other facilities at an airport.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...253-2018-08-06

[Jeroen]

A bit worse than sloppy I would think

http://avherald.com/h?article=4bbe6fd3&opt=0

Jeroen

[saket77]

Originally Posted by libranof1987

Wow. Really sloppy.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

A bit worse than sloppy I would think

True. DGCA suspends licence of the 2 pilots.

Source: https://www.financialexpress.com/ind...iyadh/1271045/

[V.Narayan]

[post to be read to the sighing silence of eyes rolling up] This dear petro-heads is the motor car equivalent of driving on the pavement thinking it is the main road.

[Sutripta]

^^^
But then our national characteristic is to walk on the road thinking it's the pavement!

[TKMCE]

While the Goa Incident report which the original poster who was travelling on the flight and has shared here has not yet made to the DGCA website, yet another Jet Airways scary "incident" on a B777 departing London Heathrow for Mumbai in August 2016 has just been put up on the DGCA website.

Conclusion - Crew Error - As simple as that !


http://dgca.nic.in/accident/reports/incident/VT-JEK.pdf

Are India's airlines growing too fast for its own good?

[TKMCE]

Another apparent pilot error (yes, I know that the report is a couple of years away by DGCA past standards) but this one appears to be sheer carelessness.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4bd5ef33&opt=0


I am very familiar with this airport as a passenger, actually flew in that day, a couple of hours before Air India landed and the visibility was crystal clear in broad day light!

The new under construction runway was NOTAMed, and Air India has been operating to this airport for the last 40 odd years!

Pilots involved would need some good excuse to clear themselves of blame on this one. Sad thing about the aircraft.. virtually brand new (barely 7 months old A320 Neo) although hopefully it will be airworthy in a few days.

Atleast runway strength (PCN) was not an issue , the official inaugural flight is to be a week from today with an Etihad A380 as per the local media, but Air India appeared to be in an almighty hurry to steal the thunder

And on a serious note, does India's airlines not teach their pilots about accidents like Western (in Mexico City) or Singapore Airlines (at Taipei)? Both of them were not in daylight and happened in poor visibility which is not the case with this Air India incident.

[silversteed]

Originally Posted by TKMCE

... the visibility was crystal clear in broad day light!

And on a serious note ... Both of them were not in daylight and happened in poor visibility which is not the case with this Air India incident.

I guess, good visibility was also a problem here - the not-yet-runway with fresh markings would've looked quite inviting to the pilot, while the actual runway would've looked like a patchy strip, considering the regular short take-offs and landings that the airport handles. In the dark, the runway lighting would've given enough hints to the pilots, which isn't the case in broad daylight.

Nevertheless, it does appear certain that the pilots have erred and it's only because the new strip was devoid of dangerous objects that the aircraft ended up on the tarmac with only relatively minor damage.

[TKMCE]

AI landed on a new runway awaiting inauguration. It was not obviously constructed overnight. The construction of new runway has been NOTAM (Notice to Airmen)ed for years. Also there were clear cross marks at either end indicating non operational runway.

I do agree that obviously the new "about to be inaugurated runway" may have clearer markings than the current runway, but as you mentioned, it is no excuse. Luckily the heavy equipment was apparently off the runway otherwise it would have ended up in a major disaster.

My biggest concern is this. The last major accident in India with passenger fatalities was Air India Express at Mangalore in May 2010. After that " major incidents" by India's airlines are reaching worrying proportions (by Aviation's stringent standards). This is not just in India but abroad also (Jet Airways at Heathrow and Riyadh, Air India at Maldives). In many of these cases, we have senior pilots paired with very junior co pilots as India's airlines have grown exponentially. It is difficult to believe for instance that in this incident BOTH pilots got caught out. So this could either point out to major CRM (Crew Resource Management) issues or deficiencies in operational practices or to be very fair to senior pilots, possible stressful work rostering by some airlines.

Hope the Indian regulator wakes up before it is too late.

[silversteed]

Originally Posted by TKMCE

...In many of these cases, we have senior pilots paired with very junior co pilots as India's airlines have grown exponentially...

Very senior pilots paired with junior pilots in India is a tricky situation. It's not very uncommon for a junior to kowtow the senior's line even if the latter isn't 100% right - not only in aviation but everywhere else. The infamous Tenerife disaster is an example of how bad this can end up in.

Like you said, the recent spate of incidents do hint at a scope of improvement in CRM and CTM.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by TKMCE

. After that " major incidents" by India's airlines are reaching worrying proportions (by Aviation's stringent standards). This is not just in India but abroad also (Jet Airways at Heathrow and Riyadh, Air India at Maldives). .

That is a very big statement to make. Do you have any statistical analysis showing India airlines have more major incidents than other airlines around the world. BTW, no so sure what the definition of a major incident is. I thought it was an incident or an accident.

Originally Posted by silversteed

Like you said, the recent spate of incidents do hint at a scope of improvement in CRM and CTM.

See above. In aviation, always wait for the formal incident report before making sweeping statements.

Indian aircrews are not the only ones involved in these sort of incident. It is to simple to just point at CRM and or CTM. A lot of research on this is available. And of course, it is not just landing on the wrong runway, Planes have landed on the complete wrong airport. Not sure if Indian airlines have been involved, but certainly a few American carriers have and the American Airforce too!

If you go to the Aviation Herald and search for “landing on wrong runway” you will see this:

http://avherald.com/h?search_term=la...43&search.y=12

Almost every known carrier and a few lesser known have been involved in these type of incidents and or runway incursion over the last year. I don’t think you can draw the conclusion that Indian carriers are worst, en par, or better than the others.

Jeroen

[TKMCE]

You ask for statistics.
Please do take the time to read all the incident/accident reports available in the DGCA website and come to your own conclusions. Many reports have not made it there yet... including the Jet Airways one at Goa, which the original poster has shared here.


As mentioned I am very familiar with the airport in Maldives where AI landed (granted...not from inside the cockpit). Brushing off that incident as just one of those incursions including that 1995 Northwest landing at Brussels which you are obliquely referring to is all fine as fortunately nothing happened. Not every time you can be lucky as was the case with Western back in Mexico City.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by TKMCE

You ask for statistics.
Please do take the time to read all the incident/accident reports available in the DGCA website and come to your own conclusions.

Sorry, but looking at a website, seeing a lot of reports and then making any sort of conclusion is just ridiculous. You can only make some sort of conclusion if you put some metrics around the reports. Eg. how many incidents/accidents per carrier / per mile flown/ per landing / per take off etc. And then start comparing to find what is best and where do Indian carriers stand.

I can 100% guarantee that the FAA website has many many more incidents and accidents report than DGCA. Does that make the USA more unsafe aviation wise than India? If we follow your logic it would be!

Originally Posted by TKMCE

As mentioned I am very familiar with the airport in Maldives where AI landed (granted...not from inside the cockpit). Brushing off that incident as just one of those incursions including that 1995 Northwest landing at Brussels which you are obliquely referring to is all fine as fortunately nothing happened. Not every time you can be lucky as was the case with Western back in Mexico City.

I am not brushing off anything, nor am I pointing to any particular incident, let alone the the Northwest and or Western. I am merely pointing out that landing on the wrong runway happens across the world. It is not an Indian phenomena. That doesn’t make it any better, and it does beg the question why.

If you keep track of your typical aviation publication such as for instance Flight Magazine you will find a host of articles written about the reasons why planes get put down on the wrong runway, the taxiway, the wrong airport. One thing what is for sure, is that it not just down to lack of CRM and or CTM.

Being familiar with a particular airport is not necessarily a guarantee of not making mistakes. In fact there is some suggestion that pilots make more errors on their home airport. Familiarity breeds contempt.

I know I certainly spend many more hours pouring over airport diagrams, NOTAMS etc during my flight planning. Mostly spend on destination and alternates, especially if I had not been there before.

But the one time I got really confused during an approach was at my home airport. Could not figure out where I was! Must have taken off and landed there hundreds of times!

Lets just wait for the report and see what gives.

Jeroen

[TKMCE]

There are two airlines based in Maldives and one of them has an extensive short haul operation as well out of MLE.Neither of manageed to end up in a situation what you were suggesting...the so called "familiarity concept"

You can argue about statistics and metrics. When you are in the receiving end, you will I am sure stop arguing about it. And as for the report making it into public,many don't....in India. Try finding out the official report of one of the landmark accidents in aviation. The Indian Airlines A320 accident at Bangalore in 1990. You will not find the official report in any online resource. The FAA " lessons learned" website atleast attempted to put together an as complete copy as they could find. But now evem that website is also under reconstruction

Please don't assume that only pilots who fly like you are the sole authority in matters of safety and that no one else is qualified to comment on it.

Statistics can be twisted around, and AV Herald is a convenient tool to score a quick point or two but accident reports do tell their story provided you take the time and effort to go through them. Kindly study the last 40 or so available on the Indian regulators website, you would hopefully understand what I was trying to say.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by TKMCE

There are two airlines based in Maldives and one of them has an extensive short haul operation as well out of MLE.Neither of manageed to end up in a situation what you were suggesting...the so called "familiarity concept"

You can argue about statistics and metrics. When you are in the receiving end, you will I am sure stop arguing about it.

Please don't assume that only pilots who fly like you are the sole authority in matters of safety and that no one else is qualified to comment on it.

Statistics can be twisted around, and AV Herald is a convenient tool to score a quick point or two but accident reports do tell their story provided you take the time and effort to go through them. Kindly study the last 40 or so available on the Indian regulators website, you would hopefully understand what I was trying to say.

Just because two carriers did not have any incidents or accidents on a airport they are familiar with doesn't proof anything. Looks like you are not very familiar with this particular subject. Lots of research available from multiple sources around the world. Statistically more incident and accidents happen on the inbound flight and around one's home airport.

40 reports on the Indian regulator website don't mean anything although each needs to be take seriously. Have you compared how many reports the FAA has published in the same time? Or any other large regulator? Why do you think this is a lot or bad or draw any conclusion at all?

It is all about context or better statistical significance. Again you are claiming I am making certain statements. I am not and I am not an authority on aviation safety.

But I am a pilot and I do know a bit about statistics. If you check my other contributions about Indian aviation you will find I have been highly critical for years on your DGCA. They were the prime reason India was downgraded by ICAO.
Lots of factual and statistical significant evidence that lead to this humiliating disaster.

However, I lack any insights as to how many incidents/accidents Indian carriers have compared to non Indian carriers.

As far as I can tell neither do you. You base your conclusion on the number of reports published (and apparently not published).

To me that is just a very silly way of looking at the world. As I said before, the FAA website has many more reports available. Does that make US carriers less safe than Indian carriers?

As I see it you base your conclusion in your bias that 40 reports is a lot. But you fail to substantiate why that is a lot. You don't compare it with data from other parts of the world.

I have commented many times on my thoughts about Indian aviation. And although I don't have data to support it I believe they are under represented in the Aviation Herald. That in itself is probably an indication in itself. Indian aviation inn terms of planes and flights is pretty huge. How come we hear so little about them when it comes to incidents and accidents?

Read though any western aviation publication. You will find many article written by pilots "confessing" how they screwed up. All so others can learn. I see very few if any articles from Indian pilots. Again, I don't have exact data. It is just an observation. But at least it is an observation where I am trying to compare things.

You are not comparing anything, nor offering any factual information to substantiate your claim.

This is a free public forum so anything goes. But to me your claim has no value. I don't learn anything from it. I am not provided with some reference as to why you think so. It is just an opinion with no substance.

You are entitled to your opinion and the way you make your own conclusions, but I find them lacking substance, data and context.

Which is a shame because I think there might be lots of stuff that needs improving big time when it comes to Indian aviation. Again, that is mostly opinion, gut feeling if you like.And also some experience thrown in having been in an Indian aviation emergency. Oh, and knowing a lot of people that are helping the DGCA and carriers getting their act together. They are all fairly confident that they have their work cut out for years to come.

Again, not factual, more anecdotal. But certainly context.

40 reports on a website isn't context if you start considering the sheer number of flight happening in India on a day by day basis. Totally and utterly statistically insignificant.

You want to make impact with an opinion you have to come up with more data, facts, substance and context. Otherwise it is just a hollow claim. Not necessarily incorrect or correct for that matter, just lacking substance, thoughtfulness and context.

Which is a shame as it is a very interesting topic

Jeroen