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Old 29th April 2017, 15:39   #1
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Default BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

Ashok Leyland has showcased its range of products featuring Intelligent Exhaust Gas Re-circulation (iEGR) technology to adhere to BS-IV emission norms, and its industry-leading services at its annual Global Conference 2017.

Globally, two technologies are used for meeting the latest emission standards – SCR (selective catalytic reduction), which is used by companies like Daimler, and EGR (exhaust gas re-circulation).

Ashok Leyland has brought its indigenous innovation in the EGR technology to not only meet BS-IV emission norms but also ensure reliability. About 200 engineers in its R&D wing worked on developing the new technology.

Read full article here..
http://autotechreview.com/news/item/...echnology.html

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...cle9657209.ece

http://rajasthanpatrika.patrika.com/...s-2558257.html
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Old 29th April 2017, 20:51   #2
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Default re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

Will this technology be a significant differentiator for Ashok Leyland vis-a-vis the competition? Will they be able to undercut the competition and sell more vehicles? Increase their market share?
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Old 29th April 2017, 22:46   #3
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Will this technology be a significant differentiator for Ashok Leyland vis-a-vis the competition?
No. Although trucking is a different world but in general end user do not need to do anything with technology. He wants a reliable product with good service network.

Their main problem is spare parts availability which is decreasing their market share.

Quote:
Will they be able to undercut the competition and sell more vehicles? Increase their market share?
Strong marketing is a must. TATA and Mahindra has hired ‘Akshay Kumar’ & ‘Ajay Devgan’ for advertising but leylend has not done till now (I mean they are not aggressive in marketing).

A.L. says that they have achieved this with minimal electronics and sensors (this is the reason; I have created this thread).

+we are seeing EGR technology since BS-III era in our cars but can any-one explain what is SCR (selective catalytic reduction)? Is it implemented in any indian vehicle?
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Old 30th April 2017, 07:05   #4
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Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post
+we are seeing EGR technology since BS-III era in our cars but can any-one explain what is SCR (selective catalytic reduction)? Is it implemented in any indian vehicle?
Did a Google search : check this link

http://www.dieselforum.org/about-cle...el/what-is-scr

Quote:
Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) is an advanced active emissions control technology system that injects a liquid-reductant agent through a special catalyst into the exhaust stream of a diesel engine. The reductant source is usually automotive-grade urea, otherwise known as Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF). The DEF sets off a chemical reaction that converts nitrogen oxides into nitrogen, water and tiny amounts of carbon dioxide (CO2), natural components of the air we breathe, which is then expelled through the vehicle tailpipe.

SCR technology is designed to permit nitrogen oxide (NOx) reduction reactions to take place in an oxidizing atmosphere. It is called "selective" because it reduces levels of NOx using ammonia as a reductant within a catalyst system. The chemical reaction is known as "reduction" where the DEF is the reducing agent that reacts with NOx to convert the pollutants into nitrogen, water and tiny amounts of CO2. The DEF can be rapidly broken down to produce the oxidizing ammonia in the exhaust stream.

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Old 1st May 2017, 09:33   #5
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Default re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

Likewise with Tata Motors. Sharing from the Press Release:

Quote:
Tata Motors’ Commercial Vehicles are BSIV ready with Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) and new future leading Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR).

• Tata Motors is the first OEM to have introduced EGR technology in India in 2010 for BS IV on commercial vehicles

• EGR is developed in-house and covers the entire range of Tata engines including the new generation 3-litre and 5-litre engines

• Tata Motors then created new benchmark with SCR technology in 2014 for M&HCV Truck and bus applications on Tata Cummins engines

• SCR offers cleaner exhaust; better power and fuel efficiency

• SCR is the globally proven technology for all Euro 4 and above applications for the entire range of M&HCV, in both emerging as well as developed markets such as the U.S. & Europe

• SCR will enable Tata Motors to meet stringent BS VI emission norms

Mumbai, April 26, 2017: Tata Motors, the country’s largest truck and bus manufacturer, announced readiness of SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) and EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) technologies for BSIV compliant engines, powering its range of Commercial Vehicles.

Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) technology adopted by Tata Motors in 2010 will continue to power small-to-medium category of commercial vehicles with engine power requirements up to 180HP. EGR helps to reduce NOx emissions from the engine. Additionally, Tata Motors has adopted the globally proven SCR technology since 2014 for its Medium and Heavy-Duty Commercial vehicles ranging from 130HP to 400HP. Tata Cummins Ltd, a JV between Tata Motors and US-based Cummins Inc. has developed these engines. SCR technology allows engine to operate at more optimal combustion temperature providing better power, fuel efficiency and lower NOx and particulate matter generation.

While EGR is a relatively low cost, simple, and ‘easy to integrate’ technology, SCR can be scaled up further to meet the stringent BS VI emission standards. Tata Motors has perfected both the SCR and EGR technologies on a wide range of TML vehicles that have been sold to customers within India as well as abroad.

About SCR and EGR

Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) is a process that simply adds a Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) into the exhaust gas stream and filters it through a catalyst. The DEF vaporizes and decomposes to form ammonia (NH3), which in conjunction with the SCR catalyst reacts with NOx (Nitrogen oxides) to convert the pollutant into nitrogen (N2) and water (H2O) which are released into the air. SCR technology uses less fuel since the engine is tuned to cut NOx and can instead be set up for performance and economy. In addition, fewer active "regenerations" of diesel particulate filters are needed to burn off soot, which in turn uses less fuel.

SCR is a globally proven technology which almost every diesel engine manufacturer has adopted. All the major commercial vehicle OEMs across the world have chosen SCR to comply with new and upcoming emission standards.

Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) is a Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) emissions reduction technique within the engine that re-circulates a portion of an engine's exhaust gas back to the engine cylinders after cooling, depriving it of certain amount of oxygen, leading to lower temperature burn. EGR uses enhanced electronic controls, even-higher-pressure fuel injection, multiple coolers, and optimized turbocharging. This reduces NOx emissions. However, EGR technology has limited potential in terms of being up scaled.

The new technologies will help reduce emissions of NOx. Additionally, compliance to BSIV emission norms (with OBDII) will require accurate control on the engine combustion. This can only be achieved with electronic engines and hence the Indian M&HCV market will experience a significant transition from mechanical to electronic engines.
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Old 1st May 2017, 10:37   #6
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Default Re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

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Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post
+we are seeing EGR technology since BS-III era in our cars but can any-one explain what is SCR (selective catalytic reduction)? Is it implemented in any indian vehicle?
SCR or active emissions control is done by using an additive a solution of urea and goes by the name adblue/bluetec/diesel exhaust fluid. Its purpose is to reduce nitrogen oxides in diesel exhaust.

SCR is the third stage in Diesel exhaust gas treatment. 1st one being an oxidation catalytic converter, 2nd being DPF or diesel particulate filter which traps soot and 3rd comes SCR.

Here most Diesel vehicles are still in stage 1. IIRC no Diesel passenger vehicle has SCR implemented in it yet. With implementation of Bharat 6 in 2020 (6 years behind Euro6) we can expect this to change.
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Old 1st May 2017, 11:11   #7
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Default Re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

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Will this technology be a significant differentiator for Ashok Leyland vis-a-vis the competition? Will they be able to undercut the competition and sell more vehicles? Increase their market share?
Ashok Leyland has been increasing its overall market share for the past few consecutive years from 27% to 32%. Their strong conviction about indigenous technology suited for Indian conditions has a significant contribution to this. The best example is of the "Inline FIP" in BS3. It is said that AL is the only company to achieve BS3 (in automotive application) with Inline FIP system. The result is, an Indian operator has normal technology (local maintenance friendly) truck performing at higher emission standards, without adding to his operating cost. Hence in this context, if we look at this "iEGR", then there is scope for hope that it may become a differentiator for AL.



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Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post
No. Although trucking is a different world but in general end user do not need to do anything with technology. He wants a reliable product with good service network.

Their main problem is spare parts availability which is decreasing their market share.

Strong marketing is a must. TATA and Mahindra has hired ‘Akshay Kumar’ & ‘Ajay Devgan’ for advertising but leylend has not done till now (I mean they are not aggressive in marketing).

A.L. says that they have achieved this with minimal electronics and sensors (this is the reason; I have created this thread).
Don't think spare parts availability is an issue nowadays. If that was so, then they would not have increased market share when compared to competition.

When it comes to marketing, AL was in the forefront with M S Dhoni as its ambassador even before TaMo and MBTL came up with those celebrities.

And finally whats interesting about iEGR is that, when usual EGR recirculates 20-30% of exhaust gas depending upon conditions, AL claims to have achieved this with 10-12% re-circulation. This is significant, when we consider the fact that it will not affect the engine life badly unlike what is being propagated by SCR using competition.

Interestingly, with Eicher also coming the EGR way with their Pro5000 (VE-i3EGR) series, TaMo will not be left behind, expect they too will follow.
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Old 1st May 2017, 20:21   #8
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Default Re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

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Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post
No. Although trucking is a different world but in general end user do not need to do anything with technology. He wants a reliable product with good service network.
Reliable product means he cant spend a bomb for his service. Commercial vehicle industry is lot more matured than the passenger car industry and unlike how cars are bought trucks are't bought. Every single rupee they spend for service will be detailed before purchasing and that decides the overall total cost of ownership.



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Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post
Their main problem is spare parts availability which is decreasing their market share.
As quoted by Transenger, Ashok Leyland is increasing its market share YoY for last 4 to 5 years and now they are at ~33%, as against Tata which is actually decreasing and Mahindra still in single digits. Infact its not even right to quote Mahindra with Tata and AL.

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Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post
Strong marketing is a must. TATA and Mahindra has hired ‘Akshay Kumar’ & ‘Ajay Devgan’ for advertising but leylend has not done till now (I mean they are not aggressive in marketing).
Akshay and Ajay will not bring a single truck lead for both. Those are all for only brand building. Mahindra always markets its trucks the same way as it does for Cars and they still get the point that they are different. 7 ~ 8 years back when Mahindra launched trucks, they gave full page advertisement in all national and regional daily and spent enough to understand there was hardly any footfalls to the showrooms. Only later they understood to sell a truck one needs to visit customer and he doesn't come to showroom always.

So underlining fact is neither of the celebrities bring sales, rather its more of brand building and that's what Ashok Leyland established with MSD four year back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post

A.L. says that they have achieved this with minimal electronics and sensors (this is the reason; I have created this thread).

+we are seeing EGR technology since BS-III era in our cars but can any-one explain what is SCR (selective catalytic reduction)? Is it implemented in any indian vehicle?
Commercial vehicles with SCR is sold by Ashok Leyland since 2010 and all the BS IV AL buses in MTC are all with SCR. Basically the emission reduction happens outside engine by spraying a Diesel Exhaust Fluid or diluted urea.
EGR in cars can't be compared with Commercial vehicles directly. In case of CV's, even if an engine fails at 4lks it will be considered as a 'Low Life". It was told that EGR will have lesser engine lift as against SCR based trucks. But again AL has worked on a different strategy to recirculate exhaust gas than what its done traditionally. So that's the reason, they claim their i-EGR better than regular than EGR.

Also EGR is little tricky and not every engine responds positively. Tata 697 engine with EGR is running with MTC for 3 years and the performance isn't satisfactory. So even if a manufacturer wanted to go for EGR its a compromise, but Ashok Leyland has claimed that they have overcome these issues. We don't have any field record as of now and we will need to wait for an year to get partial feedback and 3 yrs to get full details. But honestly I am very much excited and if it clicks they will take the market share to next level in next 3 years, like how they got differentiated with inline pump in past.

This video will help to understand EGR and SCR better.



And more details here : 6 Facts that differentiates i-EGR from EGR and SCR/

Last edited by Ashley2 : 1st May 2017 at 20:37.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 17:35   #9
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In Qatar, there are lot of used trucks imported from European countries which are Eurov and EuroVI. The Mercedes Benz actros trucks have a special tank for Adblue fluid. To be honest I don't see a single truck with a non-empty tank and they run perfectly fine. So my point is even if the OEM implement an SCR system, if the customer doesn't refill the tank, the system will be as good as dead. Same fate is also for the EGR system. If the customer un plug the EGR actuator nothing will happen and trucks run fine with more emission. So the government should make it mandatory that all on-road vehicles should have an electronic controlled fuel injection and emission testing should be carried out periodically.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 21:23   #10
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Default Re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

Any thoughts on Navistar/ EGRs?

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Old 3rd May 2017, 00:32   #11
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In Qatar, there are lot of used trucks imported from European countries which are Eurov and EuroVI. The Mercedes Benz actros trucks have a special tank for Adblue fluid. To be honest I don't see a single truck with a non-empty tank and they run perfectly fine. So my point is even if the OEM implement an SCR system, if the customer doesn't refill the tank, the system will be as good as dead. Same fate is also for the EGR system. If the customer un plug the EGR actuator nothing will happen and trucks run fine with more emission. So the government should make it mandatory that all on-road vehicles should have an electronic controlled fuel injection and emission testing should be carried out periodically.
These kind of regulations are already mandated through OBD II since 2011 -12. As mentioned trucks cant run in the same way when Adblue is not available. They will go to limp-home or torque reduction mode. You can't operate trucks more than 30kmph. So whatever mentioned is already available.

Last edited by Aditya : 3rd May 2017 at 16:08. Reason: As requested
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Old 3rd May 2017, 00:59   #12
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Default Re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

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Originally Posted by dracul View Post
In Qatar, there are lot of used trucks imported from European countries which are Eurov and EuroVI. The Mercedes Benz actros trucks have a special tank for Adblue fluid. To be honest I don't see a single truck with a non-empty tank and they run perfectly fine. So my point is even if the OEM implement an SCR system, if the customer doesn't refill the tank, the system will be as good as dead. Same fate is also for the EGR system. If the customer un plug the EGR actuator nothing will happen and trucks run fine with more emission. So the government should make it mandatory that all on-road vehicles should have an electronic controlled fuel injection and emission testing should be carried out periodically.
Two points:
1. For the SCR system, unless there's a remap done to the engine ECU, the engine's output will be limited and it will enter a Limp mode when the AdBlue tank is empty. So, either they've done something or the AdBlue tank is not empty.
2. It is not so easy to just unplug the EGR valve actuator and keep running normally. There will be a CEL (Check Engine Light) and it has to be taken care of before the engine can run at normal power output. But, I don't see the need to do fiddle with the EGR system unless the drivers are trying to clock quarter-mile times.

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Any thoughts on Navistar/ EGRs?
If you are talking about the erstwhile Mahindra-Navistar trucks, that are now sold as Mahindra trucks, then I assume they are using EGR tech - their website claims they are meeting BS-4 norms without after-treatment.

Their ex- technology partner, Navistar Inc. uses SCR technology to meet Euro-5 norms. I do not know what their strategy is for E-6 and equivalent.

Last edited by silversteed : 3rd May 2017 at 01:04.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 20:48   #13
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If you are talking about the erstwhile Mahindra-Navistar trucks,
Navistar of US.

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Old 18th July 2019, 10:02   #14
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+we are seeing EGR technology since BS-III era in our cars but can any-one explain what is SCR (selective catalytic reduction)?
I know I'm quoting a Banned member's query on a Commercial Vehicles thread. But the information in this article is an eye-opener for private diesel car owners and total noobs like myself; it is all the more relevant with BS VI looming around the corner.

What are DEF and SCR you ask? Here's an article from the American perspective.

Source: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/d...-urea-scr-egr/

Quote:
Diesel truck enthusiasts, long-haul truckers and fleet managers collectively had a Chicken Little moment back in 2010 when the Environmental Protection Agency mandated the use of selective catalytic reduction (SCR) in diesel engines.

Why? Because the thing that makes SCR work its magic is a consumable fluid called diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) and owners of diesel vehicles were going to have to add it to their vehicles. Nobody likes paying more money for something inconvenient.

The reality of DEF and SCR turned out to not be that bad, and in the end, despite the added cost of the fluid itself, the increased fuel efficiency and reduced emissions made the hassle of topping off an extra tank of liquid once in a while kind of worth it.

So, how exactly does SCR work and what role does DEF play in making that happen? We'll explain.

First of all, selective catalyst reduction isn't new technology despite only having been mandated by the EPA in the last decade or so. It's been around for nearly half a century and was first used in the power generation industry to reduce oxides of nitrogen from coal-fired power plants.

It's that oxides of nitrogen thing that you need to keep in mind because its those compounds -- nitrogen monoxide and nitrogen dioxide -- that are the big problems with diesel combustion and they're what gave Volkswagen and their lot so much trouble.

So, in an SCR-equipped vehicle, the exhaust gas from the engine is routed first through a particulate filter to catch all the soot and ash generated from burning what is a relatively impure fuel. That takes care of the "rolling coal" aspect of old diesel engines that made them relatively unpopular in the US in the 1960s, 70s and 80s.

From the particulate filter, the exhaust gas travels past a nozzle which sprays diesel exhaust fluid into the stream of gases. DEF is made from deionized water and a very pure form of urea. Yes, urea is found in urine -- quit giggling, please -- but this is a refined form of the compound and is mostly used in the agricultural industry as a component of fertilizer.

The hot exhaust gas and DEF then enter the catalytic converter where the urea from the DEF and the exhaust gas react with a variety of metallic compounds to convert nitrogen dioxide and monoxide into nitrogen and water. Nitrogen is the primary component of the air we breathe and is harmless to the environment. Water is, well, water.

This is obviously a super simplified version of how SCR works, but it's not unlike the way your gasoline-powered car's catalytic converter works, aside from the extra step of injecting urea into the exhaust stream. Most modern diesel engines use SCR in combination with exhaust gas recirculation to reduce emissions.

Exhaust gas recirculation or EGR is a common process that is used in nearly all modern ICE engines to reduce the amount of unburnt fuel in a vehicle's exhaust gases. The downside to EGR is that it can negatively affect vehicle performance and fuel economy, plus it adds another complex system to an already complex machine.



As a response to the weaknesses of EGR, some companies are removing that system from their engines and using slightly more DEF to treat their exhaust gases, thus achieving similar results without the sacrifices in performance and economy.

All of this sounds good, right? Well, not everyone is convinced that SCR and DEF are good things. I mean, you probably have to fill it up all the time, right? And it's expensive, right? Nope. A typical tankful of DEF will need to be refilled approximately every time you change your oil. It's mostly water too, so it's not going to break the bank. A 2.5-gallon pack of BlueDEF (as opposed to the stuff your dealer might sell) will set you back well under $20.

Understanding this increasingly visible emissions control system is becoming more and more critical as US truck manufacturers begin to offer more diesel models in traditionally gasoline-dominant segments.

Each of the Big Three is either already offering or plans to offer a smaller-displacement lighter-duty diesel engine in their high-volume half-ton truck range. Ford's got its V6 PowerStroke, GM has its inline-six Duramax and Ram is coming out with its 3.0-liter EcoDiesel V6. All of these will have DEF tanks and SCR systems.

Where DEF really becomes critical is in big diesel engines. We don't mean like your Cummins 6BT, we're talking Class 8 semi-trucks. These vehicles do millions of miles over their lifespans, and their massive diesel engines go through a lot of fuel in that time. These vehicles go through a lot of DEF as you might imagine, so at truck stops, DEF is sold at the pump.

SCR technology is also coming to the world of marine diesel. The International Maritime Organization (IMO) first introduced mandates limiting the amount of NOx emissions in 2000 and has since been tightening those regulations. With some marine diesel engines easily being the size of a house, their capacity for pollution is immense, so again, SCR and DEF go a long way towards cleaning these vehicles up.

"SCR is a technology that exists right now and is being employed all over the world to increase fuel efficiency and reduce NOx emissions," said Charles Culverhouse, CEO of Old World Industries, makers of BlueDEF and Peak automotive chemicals, in an interview with Roadshow. "DEF works and its made from commonly available ingredients that are already being produced in vast amounts for the agricultural industry. The infrastructure is already in place."

That's an important thing to remember. The world isn't going to abandon diesel anytime soon. We depend on diesel-powered vehicles -- be they trucks, trains, or boats -- to move our goods and ourselves around the world. While traditional diesel fuel may not be a great long-term solution for the planet, the SCR technology and the advent of more cost-effective biofuels mean that until we're ready to abandon internal combustion entirely, we're keeping things relatively clean.
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