[behaln]

Not acceptable at all. We call for globalization of railways. And then this happens. It is entirely due to the attitude of the people. If cameras would have been put up in each cabin and railways had fined these unruly passengers, then things would have fallen in place. Such people should have been shamed on social media as well.
It's a disgrace to the entire society.

[lazy]

Absolutely shameful.
Our population is simply not ready for public niceties (good trains, buses, phones, First Aid boxes, Water fountains, toilets, etc etc etc).

And by population I do not refer to the downtrodden and poor, I refer to the general junta.
Indians can only keep their own homes & properties clean, nothing else.

And my 2 cents to people who think this wouldn't have happened had this train been introduced in South India - only an illiterate and/or un-travelled person would say such stuff.
Sir, your pride is not only misplaced, it also stinks, because such claims tells me more about you rather than what you're saying.

cheers
lazy

[PraNeel]

UPDATE: Rail Minister says that vandals will be tracked and punished. This should be done without fail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd26M1gvfXY

[Indraneel Bhat]

Originally Posted by pedrolourenco

Being a Goan, I am really irritated to hear this news. Even though the incident is limited to the train, it is the state and the people that have got a bad name. We generally take pride in stating that we have a relatively good Civic Sense compared to many other places. It has got a lot to do with the quality of tourists. We get a lot of good tourists (like you guys) who drive down or take flights or even trains. But anyone who has visited Goa must have seen the rowdy type of tourists. We call them the Sumo/Trax Tourists (No offence meant to any owners of these vehicles here). Most of them come in the above vehicles and others in buses or trains. They will sleep on footpaths, cook on the roadside, litter the place, ogle at women, get drunk and in general create a nuisance. These are the type of people who could be responsible for this incident.
Not to ignite the North-South debate but most of the North Indians visiting Goa are Honeymoon couples. I doubt they have the time and energy to indulge vandalism

I agree completely with you Pedro

It does bother me that journeys to Goa are sort of demonized (for lack of a better word). My ancestors lived in Goa, the temples of my family Goddesses are there. I go there often. Goa is a slice of heaven inhabited by the some of the coolest people on the planet

I can vouch for the fact that Goans are some of the most civic minded people that I know (Yes there is a garbage problem, but then which other city doesn't?) Most of the littering that I have seen comes from cars that are out of state. The roads to and within Goa (except the Mumbai Goa Highway which is a drag ) are amazing with some of the best black top roads in the country (check out the new Panjim-Ponda highway).

We need to have "Vanilla" version public services. Example:

1. Clean trains/buses that take you from point A to B without fuss or breakdowns. As some members mentioned earlier, a great add to this would be the availability of free wi-fi which could be included in the cost of the ticket.

2. Good quality roads (black top) with reflective paint and LED lamposts for visibility. I have heard there are roads in Bangalore which have a plastic derivative in the bitumen. This makes the roads more resistant to water damage and increases life.

In reality examples like the above are all we need in order to make things work for the long term and make them viable to all classes. Education on civic sense has to start from home and the school. I give my kids a lot of heat for littering and they listen as they don't see either me or their mother littering.

[nakul0888]

Originally Posted by artrocious

This just makes me relate to the STRICT US Immigration and VISA laws.
I got my first opportunity to visit US just last year and have been there a few times.

The first time I went there I was shocked to see all homes made of wood and plain glass windows (with no steel grills) - Basically if a miscreant wants to get in your home he just needs to break a small pane of glass and jump right in. Now add to that - the homes are spaced well apart and the sound of breaking glass is not a deterrent either. I stayed in my sister-in-laws place where her 2 year old sleeps alone in his room with just a pane of glass between him and the outside world. If someone wants to grab the child - they only need to break a glass pane and felt kind of scary!

Now imagine what would happen if Indian homes and stores just had glass and no grill/steel shutters? I am not telling thefts do not happen in the US but it just shows the kind of collective maturity respect for property that rises from being in a more homogenous population in terms of wealth (unlike India where there is a huge disparity in wealth)

Here is another example - In my last visit a couple of months back in NJ (EWR) aiport there were stores with no humans. You pick what you want, scan it, swipe your card and bag it and get out. Will that work in India?

So, lets say US Immigration laws weren't so strict (and green cards did not have 10 years wait time) - or say there were no H1b caps and so on - What would happen if "anyone who could save up an air-ticket" could land in US and stay there? Would it still be the same? Not trying to pick on anyone - but say your rash driving, bad mouthing, dishonest auto driver could save up 30K for one way US air ticket and end up there?

How would the country get diluted? Glass panes would now have to become steel grills.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that India needs to get more people into the middle class. The income disparity should be narrowed. Uber Rich need to be taxed for ALL their money and the poor-uneducated should be forced to get educated.

Uber rich needs to be taxed for ALL their money? Are you out of your mind man? When in the history of human civilization has that ever worked?
Name one country which started poor and became rich through the socialism that you have just advocated? Just one!

The U.S and the western world became that way not by taxing people to death and redistributing their wealth. It got that way because their govt had the sense to not get in the way of their private sector and simply stick to the stuff that governments normally do best. That would be law enforcement defense, infrastructure.

If we put into practice what you have recommended the rich would simply cut their losses and flee, the middle class would be pushed backed into poverty and the already poor people would be send back into stone age. Best example- Venezuela.

[feluda86]

Originally Posted by artrocious

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that India needs to get more people into the middle class. The income disparity should be narrowed.

Completely agree without on your comment on income disparity. That is the reason for all banes in modern India. What is missing from the Indian mindset is accountability and responsibility. This sense of accountability does not come from anything but proper education - not A,B,C but education on respecting your surroundings. That has to be started at the grass-root levels of our economy. However, such a policy of imparting education and inculcating a sense of accountability will not work if a large section of the population spends half their life trying to figure where the next morsel of food is going to come from. That is why we need economic parity (how? I do not know!).

[artrocious]

Originally Posted by nakul0888

Uber rich needs to be taxed for ALL their money? Are you out of your mind man? When in the history of human civilization has that ever worked?
Name one country which started poor and became rich through the socialism that you have just advocated? Just one!

The U.S and the western world became that way not by taxing people to death and redistributing their wealth. It got that way because their govt had the sense to not get in the way of their private sector and simply stick to the stuff that governments normally do best. That would be law enforcement defense, infrastructure.

If we put into practice what you have recommended the rich would simply cut their losses and flee, the middle class would be pushed backed into poverty and the already poor people would be send back into stone age. Best example- Venezuela.

You think the rich shouldn't be taxed for all their money while someone salaried like me pays every rupee of tax? How will you educate the masses without tax money? How will you get health care to their homes? Enable them to build toilets? All this over and above the free TVs, Mixies and fans that TN govt is giving out for free to every individual in TN?

If I earn 10L a year and pay 2L tax VS the rich who make 100C a year and need to pay 25C tax (But in fact may only be paying a few Lakhs tax)?

[kozhissery]

Originally Posted by feluda86

Completely agree without on your comment on income disparity. That is the reason for all banes in modern India. What is missing from the Indian mindset is accountability and responsibility.

I do accept that. The main problem in India is lack of accountability. Some years back a news came in the local news paper that a school going girl had an unfortunate accident. On the way to school there is some mill (small unit where you take rice/wheat etc for grinding, dried coconut for oil extraction etc). On hearing the sound of the machine she peeped through the hole in the wall and the fan of the engine just pulled her hair out with the scalp. She lived to tell the story.
But in Kerala if you need to open even a small unit you need validation from many departments, one of which is safety department. As per the definition there should be at least 1 meter gap between the wall and the moving part and its clear that this has been violated. The paper said that this is a pretty new mill and no modification has been done after setting it up. Which means that by greasing some hands the owner got the certification. Now whom to blame? IF accountability was there then the person who signed the fitness certificate should be behind bars which did not happen.

[feluda86]

Originally Posted by kozhissery

Now whom to blame? IF accountability was there then the person who signed the fitness certificate should be behind bars which did not happen.

That accountability is missing because of lack of strong laws and fear of the law. We know the cause but I am not sure we know how to tackle it. India is too big a country.

As posted earlier the Tejas express offenders apparently have been punished. News needs to come out about details of the punishment to instill the fear of law. That will prevent people from vandalizing public property. Examples have to be set.

[nakul0888]

Originally Posted by artrocious

You think the rich shouldn't be taxed for all their money while someone salaried like me pays every rupee of tax? How will you educate the masses without tax money? How will you get health care to their homes? Enable them to build toilets? All this over and above the free TVs, Mixies and fans that TN govt is giving out for free to every individual in TN?

If I earn 10L a year and pay 2L tax VS the rich who make 100C a year and need to pay 25C tax (But in fact may only be paying a few Lakhs tax)?

I didnt say rich should not be taxed at all.
They should be taxed at a reasonable rate. A flat tax of 10-20% would do just fine. Not at ludicrous rates like you want to. This with strong laws against tax evasion and their proper enforcement would means there would be not much incentive to evade taxes and take it offshore in the first place.
You add a good environment to do business to all of this and you will get an economy that's 10 times better off than if you try to tax everyone to death. This is better for the country and for our future generation in the long run. Yes this does means there would be not a whole lot of freebies from the government for a lots of poor people. Instead they will have to make their way up in life themselves. But thats just how the real world works. No one is going to simply stand there and let themselves get taxed at 80-90% and let the govt redistribute all that they have earned to somebody else.

If you think India can afford to do that and give free education, free healthcare, free this , free that to over 1 billion people, you are sadly mistaken. Our govt already spends more money than what it collects from taxes. Its running deficits year after year. And we are borrowing money from other countries to cover our expenses. Our national debt is close to 70% of all the value of every single goods and services produced in this country. And its getting bigger and bigger every year and we have to pay all of that back plus interest.If we even remotely try to do what you advocated we would bankrupt ourselves. Facts are Facts, that's all i have got to say.

[JediKnight]

Shameful indeed. On a work trip to Denmark a few years ago at a railway station i saw a stack of news papers. Next to the papers was box. You were supposed to pick the paper and drop the change in the box voluntarily. I remember discussing with my colleague: if a similar arrangement was setup in India the bundle of newspapers together with the box would disappear in no time.

Also it is sad some of the members in the forum trying to use this incident as a "proof" of their opinions of their country men from other regions of India. This a another characteristic we share. To classify ourselves in groups and then try to prove our superiority over others. To stereotype and demean "those" people. Like a modern metamorphosis of the caste system.

I live in Bangalore in South India. During the recent Cauvery row it was shameful how people from our neighboring states were treated. My colleagues could not take out their cars. Lorries and buses burnt. Businesses harmed. It was shameful even by Indian standards.

[simplyself]

More the money, more the disruptive activity seems to be the norm. Before any one jump on me, let me say that there are exceptions.

From schools to colleges to streets, there is a vagrant display of money and power and their collective antipathy towards ordinary citizens.

India missed a flight of stairs and had gone up in an escalator/ lift.

[jbpanda]

Originally Posted by Kestrel5915

I don't think vandalism and pilferage has any relation whatsoever with region, religion, education level, social status or even money for that matter.

Towels, etc are stolen even from 5-star hotels.
Airlines sometimes report stolen headphones and even lifejackets.

Base instincts ain't suppressed by literacy or affluence.

And let's not get started on the North vs South debate on this thread because thinking that these problems are more prevalent in one region or the other is a sure sign of asininity.

Absolutely. Towels, cutlery, headphones to name a few. It's not merely about the haves or have nots. Even educated and well to do people have least sense of common sense, mutual respect or civic sense. They misuse as long as they don't have to make good the loss. Government's property is for misuse.

The way people drive on roads, the way an ambulance is treated in a busy road, the eagerness to break a queue, jumping out of an aircraft seat to grab cabin luggage or use mobile phones before it is announced, littering on streets are just few examples the many examples.

It's the debate that the same person when he/she is in Singapore or a country where any indiscipline is subjected to severe deterrent penalty (which is strictly implemented) behaves in a particular way but the very same person resorts to such kind of vandalism in India because of sheer indifference and lack of any respect or others and for the toothless law enforcement in India. Blame it on deep rooted corruption, population, education, etc but the only thing that you can say for these hooligans is bizarre.

[Sawyer]

Unfortunately, going by what I see on the roads, hooligans are the majority these days in all our cities. TBHP stickered cars are also seen exhibiting this behaviour. In general, city people are becoming intolerant of every other citizen. And the media, including social media is amplifying this behaviour.

I am not in touch with rural India, but I strongly suspect that things are not so bad in our villages. I agree there is poverty, violence, caste issues and the like, but I don't think there is this casually done hooliganism.

[400notout]

I would like to share a brief experience with the Tejas express on my journey yesterday from Karmali (goa) to Panvel (Navi mumbai)

To put things in perspective we travelled to Goa a day earlier in the Jan shatabdi Express Non-AC chair car.

So it was the cheapest journey (270 rs per head) vs the most expensive train journey (1475 per head).

Other experiences include a volvo journey to madgaon 3 years back.

Before I get into the details some information;

Both the above trains are the fastest dedicated trains to reach Goa with a journey time of 7:30 Hrs (from panvel).

Jan shatabdi runs between Dadar and Madgaon whereas Tejas runs between CST and Karmali.

Both are chair car trains

AC coach in Jan shatabdi is around 970 rs per head.

Tejas has an executive class which costs 2935 per head!!

Note:

Pictures above and description below.

Pardon the blurry picture quality, the train moved about a lot!

About Tejas Express (AC Chair car)



The Train

The interior



Regular view



A filter changes the experience



Open luggage shelf, Not for the heavy traveller or short ones. Notice the "flight type" lights which wasn't needed mostly, as the lights are never really off.



The aisle



The view at night



The Seats are amazing. Better than economy air-planes and volvos. Compared to the extremely torturous Janshatabdi benches (not a fair comparison price-wise) ,
here seating was not an issue at all. Didn't try sleeping though. But there's enough activity to do for you to resist sleeping.
The seats in above images are fully reclined.



Height Adjustable footrests are sturdy.

Food



Coffee was one of the better ones I've had, like its machine-types, The flask certainly could have been better. But I guess since it is one flask per row, they chose something abuse proof.

Snacks came in the form of sev, sweet samosa, bun butter ( good one), and soup (good) in two trips. and dinner served at 7 pm was typical railways, below average. (no pics available)



Staff was dressed in a Hawaiian shirt (?) they were good but I felt the train was very understaffed. one guy trying to serve and clean 72 seats wont be very quick if he is not serving other bogies which I'm not sure about.

The Entertainment

The tablet attached to the seats is good but complete functionality would have been better. I mean some movies were not playing, Internet was not working and the sound quality is worst possible. I don't know why people took the headphones, first of all given the quality of the touchscreen tablet the headphone could not have been near good anyway. Mostly people kept/stole it as a souvenir like the kingfisher headphones of yore .

The Tablet screen was resistive and not very involving. But worked well for the games available. The device much more stable compared to your handheld phone
which would keep shaking along with the train and believe me this train shakes a lot! Its Body roll galore threatening food off the tray. We enjoyed playing available games. They are just the mindless games you need to pass the hours.

It did a good job keeping the kids busy, you could watch a movie if you had it on pen drive other than the existing ones available. But most importantly unlike phones here all there occupants of the row could enjoy one game together, that's how we spent most of our time.

Some pictures;



Home screen, games available, movies and songs screen. Die har and Guardians didn't play. One at the bottom is Hindi movie Dum laga ke haisha which played. But the sound I could hear was very low in my Senheisser earphones. Same for the songs. I don't care much about he songs as the phone is always better option.




The non-connecting browser, and the movie. The screen is at the right height and size for a good movie watching experience the sole problem being the sound. Its Preferred over the phone.




The tablet is slightly retractable to suit viewing and a view of the "gaming" experience.



Has a USB charger which detects your media too. USB charging point is very welcome especially since our primary charging point was not working :P. The USB detected pictures on my phone, so I guess you can play media out of it however I didn't try it. Also there's a small light available at the bottom of the tablet, It has three stages of brightness. It wasn't needed much as there was plenty of light anyway.



Passengers enjoying their devices. Also notice the blue sheet on the windows which could be bought down to keep out the sun. Could not see how effective it was as there wasn't much sunlight throughout the trip.

The loo



Sensor based tap and soap dispenser worked well.



Used the western Bio toilet. Was cleaner than any train toilet I've seen. Still a typical railway toilet. Didn't see the Indian style one



Warning on toilet usage. On the left these golden/yellow plates had inscriptions which were also written in Braille. Pretty much "Visually impaired friendly" in that sense.

Other points.

No open wash basin. Have to go to the toilet to wash hands.

Train is good enough for 8-9 hr journey.

Doors open automatically on platform arrival.

This is an attempt to provide flight like service in a train. Not quite there but its a good start. :

All passengers agreed food was pathetic, but liked the overall experience.

Personal View

Its the fastest and most luxurious way to reach Goa at the moment.

The volvos will charge anything from 800-1600 depending on season, this is a far superior and comfortable experience.

Though expensive by 500 rs its better than the Janshatabdi AC coach.

A flight makes no sense for me as adding up the commute to the airport and boarding process makes the journey 4-5 hr long any way. at 7.5 hrs this is as luxurious and cheaper.

About the thread

The vandalising issue was one off. I'm surprised at how some educated and well informed members are spewing venom about how we do not deserve modern facilities.

From my experience of the Mumbai metro, where people of all classes travel, Indians do respect these efforts at making commuting better. People do not rush, don't shove and don't litter and don't spit gutka.

Its dangerous how people are passing judgements without analysing ground realities. And the action of a few mean the rest of the population doesn't deserve good facilities? really? Such myopic comments?

I hope the pictures add some clarity to the discussion.