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Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Very valid point. These skills are built with great effort and like we let submarine building skills dissipate in the 1990s we should not let it happen on carrier designing and building skills. If my views were sought I'd say build a second hull of the INS Vikrant-II class - improve the design from lessons learnt, retain the skills and go step by step. IAC-2 with EMALs etc is a jump too far IMHO.

Exactly, I remember the cautionary tale of how that ship building knowhow was allowed to atrophy, surely the IN would be extremely reluctant to allow a repeat of that. Building a second B-spec IAC-1 hull would be the logical way to go indeed, would very much be in line with how the other big ticket naval building programme has been conducted (the Arihant class SSBN programme). Having IAC-2 be a true flat top would very much be the leap the PLAN is taking with their Type-3 carrier (at least from the abundant satellite imagery of it's rapidly fleshing out hull in dry dock - see this twitter account). One good thing is that realistically at the rate India ever gets around to a CATOBAR flat top, General Atomics should hopefully have worked out all the bugs in EMALS, meaning it's less likely any hypothetical IN vessel is also pressed to trouble shoot the system. Besides, how wonderfully apt it would be if the IAC-1b adopts a semi Shtorm class layout in having a small catapult system on the angled deck to launch smaller drones and such like. That though is very much a naval ship building pipe dream.

[skanchan95]

US Navy hands over 2 MH-60Rs helicopters to India

US Navy hands over 2 multi-role helicopters to India

By Lalit K Jha, July 17, 2021 10:36 IST

In yet another sign of strengthening India-United States defence relationship, the US Navy has handed over the first two MH-60R Multi Role Helicopters (MRH) to the Indian Navy to bolster its capabilities to ward off regional threats and to strengthen homeland defence.

The Indian Navy is procuring 24 of these helicopters manufactured by Lockheed Martin under foreign military sales from the US government at an estimated cost of USD 2.4 billion.

A ceremony was held at the Naval Air Station North Island or NAS North Island, San Diego on Friday that marked the formal transfer of the helicopters from US Navy to Indian Navy. It was attended by India's Ambassador to the US Taranjit Singh Sandhu.

The ceremony also witnessed exchange of documents between Vice Adm Kenneth Whitesell, Commander Naval Air Forces, US Navy and Vice Adm Ravneet Singh, DCNS. Senior leadership of the US Navy and Lockheed Martin Corporation were also present.

Sandhu said the induction of the all-weather multi role helicopters is an important milestone in India-US bilateral defense ties.

“India US friendship Touching the Skies!” he said in a tweet. He noted that the bilateral defence trade has expanded to over 20 billion dollars in the last couple of years.

Going beyond defence trade, India and the US are also working together on co-production and co-development of defense platforms, he said.

Sandhu also highlighted reform measures that have been undertaken by India in the defense sector in recent times that have opened up new opportunities for foreign investors.

The MH-60R helicopter is an all-weather maritime helicopter designed to support multiple missions with state-of-the-art avionics.

The induction of these MRH would enhance Indian Navy's three-dimensional capabilities. The helicopters would also be modified with several unique equipment and weapons.

The first batch of the Indian crew is presently undergoing training in the US.

According to the Department of Defense, the proposed sale will provide India the capability to perform anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare missions along with the ability to perform secondary missions including vertical replenishment, search and rescue, and communications relay.

India will use the enhanced capability as a deterrent to regional threats and to strengthen its homeland defence. India will have no difficulty absorbing these helicopters into its armed forces, it had said in a communication to the Congress in April 2019.

The Indian cabinet had cleared the purchase of the helicopters in February 2020, weeks before the historic visit of the then US President Donald Trump.
Photographs: @SandhuTaranjitS/Twitter

[Dieseltuned]

Are these bought used ? As hand me downs from the US navy ?

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Originally Posted by Dieseltuned

Are these bought used ? As hand me downs from the US navy ?

Nope, these are new builds. If it's the handover part that made you wonder if it was indeed pre loved (as we tend to refer to used cars on the forum), then not to worry. Essentially whenever a new platform is inducted by a foreign customer, you essentially have a handover ceremony as the customer's own staff/personnel are embedded in the manufacturing nation to learn how to come to grips with the first platforms. Successive platforms would likely then go straight over to the destination once a domestic crew has the know-how to conduct localised training. I can't speak as to why this tradition is still there but I feel like this was just a semantic misunderstanding.

To give you an example, before the RAF or RN got their own F-35s, they were firstly with US crews alongside UK staff and once the Americans felt that the competency of the Brits was sufficient, they formally "handed over" the jets. Similarly right before Turkey got booted from the programme, their pilots were embedded in the US undergoing training on jets that were technically Turkish, just hadn't formally had that transfer of ownership yet. So for a brief while you had this weird limbo where jets destined for Turkey needed to be reassigned new owners.

Coming back to the original point, the USN is quickly cottoning on to the fact that the 90s peace dividend has led to a general complacency and degradation in their ASW capability. If anything, they're holding on to what Seahawks they still have because they lost the fixed wing ASW capability when they retired the S3 Vikings. Plus iirc Indian helos might have a French rather than a US dunking sonar to say of but one key immediate difference, so these are most definitely Indian rotary platforms.

[Dieseltuned]

Originally Posted by ads11

Nope, these are new builds. If it's the handover part that made you wonder if it was indeed pre loved (as we tend to refer to used cars on the forum), then not to worry. .

Thank you ads11.

Yes,the wording "handover from US Navy" caused me to think that probably this is a hand me down copter. Thank you for your detailed reply and clarifying this

Regards
Diesel

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Dieseltuned

Are these bought used ? As hand me downs from the US navy ?

Originally Posted by ads11

Nope, these are new builds.

Originally Posted by Dieseltuned

Thank you ads11.

Just for the record the last asset purchase by the Indian Naval Air Arm that was second hand was the acquisition of the 5 IL-38 LRMPs in 1977 {#3} and 1983 {#2}. The last second hand ship acquired was INS Vikramaditya {here I am ignoring leased nuclear powered submarines}. The days of our buying weapons second hand got over a generation ago.

[V.Narayan]

UK Carrier task group exercises with the Indian Navy

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/84644389.cms

The Royal Navy and the Indian Navy are conducting a 2-day exercise in the Indian Ocean involving 2 submarines, 10 ships and 20 naval aircraft. Good to see the IN exercise with leading foreign navies. There is always something to learn and honing our inter-operability can one day prove useful. This visit does not seem to include a port call. The last time a British carrier made a port call in India, in 1980, the times and the drama were a little different. I never thought as a 20-year old that things would change so much in our favour. Referring here to post #141 above:-)

There is only one country in the world the UK can sell its Queen Elizabeth class design to. This is also an opportunity to showcase the ship.

[dragracer567]

India to deploy naval task force into South China Sea and beyond

The Indian navy will be deploying a naval task force consisting of four different ships - Guided Missile Destroyer INS Ranvijay, Guided Missile Frigate INS Shivalik, Anti-Submarine Corvette INS Kadmatt, and Guided Missile Corvette INS Kora. The task force will be deployed to the South China Sea, Western Pacific and South East Asia for over two months beginning early August. As part of the deployment, the ships will participate in the next edition of the Malabar exercise alongside the navies of Japan, Australia and the US (wasn't there a talk of France joining as well this year?). Separately, the ships will also conduct bilateral exercises with the navies of Vietnam, the Philippines, Singapore, Indonesia and Australia.

Simultaneously (and rather coincidentally), it was announced on the same day i.e today that a German frigate - Bayern will also be deployed in the South China Sea. The Germans offcourse had avoided confronting China given their reliance on trade but even they are finding it increasing hard to ignore the Chinese given that they have become more of a rival to the EU than a partner. The Bayern’s route includes Australia, Guam, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam and Singapore. It will be the first German warship to cross the South China Sea since 2002.

Unlike the Americans and the British, neither the Indians nor the Germans are expected to sail within 12 nm of the Chinese occupied artificial islands and hence aren't 'Freedom of Navigation' exercises but rather more of a 'show of flag' naval presence according to CNN but sufficient to send the message across. Anyway, such deployments should provide some respite to the Vietnamese and the Philippines who are increasingly having a tough time challenging the Chinese navy and their armed fishing militia.

On a lighter note, I wonder which ship would be the lead of the Indian taskforce given that the INS Ranvijay is a destroyer and is hence a superior class (not sure how right it is to say 'superior class' given the varied functions) while the INS Shivalik is a Frigate (this is something Narayan sir discussed in post 141 of this thread on how these ships are from different eras and hence have era-appropriate tonnages).

The South China is going to be busy in the upcoming months and years. Given the PLAN's frequent voyages to the IOR, it makes sense that India has a presence in their home turf as well, however small.

“The Indian Navy undertakes regular deployments to friendly foreign countries and Indian and the Pacific Ocean regions in furtherance of the prime minister’s initiative of ‘Security and Growth for All in the Region SAGAR,” the Navy said in the statement.

It said such engagements build ‘bridges of friendship’ and strengthen international cooperation.

“These maritime initiatives enhance synergy and coordination between the Indian Navy and friendly countries, based on common maritime interests and commitment towards freedom of navigation at sea,” the Navy said.

“Besides regular port calls, the task group will operate in conjunction with friendly navies, to build military relations and develop interoperability in the conduct of maritime operations,” it said.

There have been mounting global concerns over China’s growing military assertiveness in the Indo-Pacific region.

India, the US, Australia, Japan and many other like-minded countries are working towards ensuring a free, open and inclusive Indo-Pacific.

The Indian Navy has also been ramping up its presence in the Indian Ocean to keep a hawk-eyed vigil over Chinese activities.

Source of quote

CNN Source on Indian Navy

CNN Source on the German Navy

SCMP on the German Navy

[V.Narayan]

INS Vikrant and INS Arihant to commission to ring in our 75th independence celebrations

https://www.indiatoday.in/india-toda...057-2021-08-08

The MoD has announced that INS Vikrant and the second SSBN INS Arighat will both be commissioned close to 15th August 2022 to celebrate 75 years of India’s independence. A worthy demonstration of indigenous defence design & production. Given the ominous and belligerent tones coming from China we cannot do enough to strengthen our naval resources. For the first time since independence threat from the sea has become real and our bureaucrats have started to at least grasp the basics of sea power.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

India to deploy naval task force into South China Sea and beyond

The Indian navy will be deploying a naval task force consisting of four different ships - Guided Missile Destroyer INS Ranvijay, Guided Missile Frigate INS Shivalik, Anti-Submarine Corvette INS Kadmatt, and Guided Missile Corvette INS Kora. The task force will be deployed to the South China Sea, Western Pacific and South East Asia for over two months beginning early August. As part of the deployment, the ships will participate in the next edition of the Malabar exercise alongside the navies of Japan, Australia and the US (wasn't there a talk of France joining as well this year?). Separately, the ships will also conduct bilateral exercises with the navies of Vietnam, the Philippines, Singapore, Indonesia and Australia.

I'm glad we are at last starting to make our presence felt in our extended neighbourhood. If we don't we will lose credibility with both China and our neighbours and friends in South East Asia. The Navy has always been confident of doing what it needs to do. It is the Ministry of External Affairs that is constantly worried about upsetting China. While there is a lot not done by right by the current regime there seems to be some more spine in MEA these days than earlier.

Unlike the Americans and the British, neither the Indians nor the Germans are expected to sail within 12 nm of the Chinese occupied artificial islands and hence aren't 'Freedom of Navigation' exercises but rather more of a 'show of flag' naval presence according to CNN but sufficient to send the message across.

Sailing close to shore even at 15 nm gets largely the same message across. One reason we are not crossing the 12nm line is to not give the PLAN a reason to start wasting our time closer to our own coastline.

On a lighter note, I wonder which ship would be the lead of the Indian taskforce given that the INS Ranvijay is a destroyer and is hence a superior class (not sure how right it is to say 'superior class' given the varied functions) while the INS Shivalik is a Frigate (this is something Narayan sir discussed in post 141 of this thread on how these ships are from different eras and hence have era-appropriate tonnages).

I suspect it will be the frigate INS Shivalik as it would certainly have more equipment, men and space dedicated to C3I.

The Naval scene in India is more interesting today than it ever has been since 1971 :-)

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I'm glad we are at last starting to make our presence felt in our extended neighbourhood. If we don't we will lose credibility with both China and our neighbours and friends in South East Asia.

If I may humbly add, apart from building our own credibility, this deployment comes as a huge reassurance to SE Asian countries - especially the Vietnamese and the Philippines. I know this because my best friend is Vietnamese (who is also a huge military buff) and we have had multiple discussions on how the Vietnamese can easily repel a Chinese invading force by land but they just don't stand a chance against the Chinese Navy with a fleet of small frigates but with the silver lining being 6 Kilo submarines (some of whose personnel were apparently trained by India).

Due to this, there is a general insecurity in Vietnam & The Philippines (much more than say India, US or even other SE countries like Indonesia) since the threat is very real for them. So, such deployments by India, Japan and other non-American Western powers gives them an assurance that even if the US withdraws from the region, other countries will have their back atleast to stare the Chinese down and project power if not actively support them in case of war.

Funnily enough, apparently there are rumors circulating in Vietnamese defense forums that the deployment by India and Germany were announced suddenly because of intel of a potential Chinese invasion/takeover of the Spratly and Parcel islands (where the Chinese are actually exercising right now) and hence was specifically requested by Vietnam. Offcourse, given defense forums have a knack for exaggerating things, this rumor is more than likely, not true.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Funnily enough, apparently there are rumors circulating in Vietnamese defense forums that the deployment by India and Germany were announced suddenly because of intel of a potential Chinese invasion/takeover of the Spratly and Parcel islands (where the Chinese are actually exercising right now) and hence was specifically requested by Vietnam. Ofvcourse, given defense forums have a knack for exaggerating things, this rumor is more than likely, not true.

With Xi Jinping I would not put any form of aggression past him. He is the Hitler of the modern age. He will keep pushing the envelope and play the game of nibbling here, nibbling there - enough to weaken the other side but not enough to provoke a war. Exactly what he did to us in Galwan and Doklam - in both instances we effectively lost territory. And what they have done in the Spratly Islands is just that. I would not be surprised if a limited war against China does occur in the next 3 years with China as the aggressor.

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan

With Xi Jinping I would not put any form of aggression past him. He is the Hitler of the modern age. He will keep pushing the envelope and play the game of nibbling here, nibbling there - enough to weaken the other side but not enough to provoke a war. Exactly what he did to us in Galwan and Doklam - in both instances we effectively lost territory. And what they have done in the Spratly Islands is just that. I would not be surprised if a limited war against China does occur in the next 3 years with China as the aggressor.

Not sure about the Hitler bit but I will say he's both cunning and ruthless. It's been plain to see in the way he's amassed absolute power. I will say this, in today's day and age, especially given the interconnected trade connections, despite the increasing prowess of the PLA forces in all 3 domains, a full scale war would really pump the brakes on their growth trajectory. In that light, their strategy of, as you rather neatly put it, nibbling here and there to make gains against near peer opposition is a wise one. Got to give them credit. Of course against opposition they feel they've long outgrown, they operate with far more bullishness, and the SCS is ample evidence of that.

All that being said, with the manner that domestic nationalism has been stoked by the CCP, and the increasingly robust rhetoric shall we say (one need only look at some of the colourful metaphors from the 100th anniversary speech by Xi), it does raise the barometer and thus the odds of a limited conflict. Where exactly that might be is a tough one given the fact they're bumping elbows in so many domains. It's a worrying thought for sure.

Ruminating about future Chinese aggression aside, these maritime deployments to the SCS are very beneficial. Given how many nations have done so (some despite major trade links), just goes to show that there's a multilateral understanding developing that the 9 Dash Line antics are a step too far and even if purely symbolic, gestures are needed to push back against that narrative. On the ground though as dragracer mentioned, it's a different story. It doesn't even need to involve the many new PLAN vessels, the super sized Chinese Coast Guard vessels and their rambunctious fishing armadas (you can barely call them a fleet given how they act) continually harass and intimidate in the SCS, you can see why the citizenry of Vietnam, Philippines, and others are all very nervous.

Re: the dual commissioning of INS Vikrant and INS Arighat on the 75th Independence Day celebrations - I guess that'll be the first time the Arihant class makes a big appearance in the public domain rather than grainy OSINT imagery. That is if they make a big pomp and circumstance of the latter's commissioning, otherwise I imagine it'll be done quietly while Vikrant gets all the spotlight above water.

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Forgot to ask earlier but looking at how the USN belatedly got around to putting the Ford class through shock trials, and given the fact IAC-1 is currently going through it's own sea trials phase: will the IN put the ship through shock trials? Has India done so for other vessels in the past and if not will they moving forward?

Shock trials for context: Quite simply as the dramatic images will attest to, it's conducting quite severe controlled explosions in very close proximity to major surface vessels (unsure of shock trials in the undersea domain, correct me if I'm wrong). As you can imagine the purpose of these tests is to subject the vessel to about the most rigour you can without seriously risking it, to get a better grasp of how it'll handle the real shocks of combat. Understandably information regarding how the trials are conducted, the modelling, the results are all cloaked in the deepest secrecy (by the USN, and for that matter I'd imagine others).

[V.Narayan]

Dear Friends,

Please join the live webcast of The Nehru Centre London (TNC) episode on *INS Vikrant's exploits and Eastern Fleet operations in 1971 war, on Tuesday, 24 Aug 21 at 6.30 PM IST*.

Links below. Join directly. No registration required. Open to public

Facebook Link. 👇
https://www.facebook.com/47321798613...9942538130901/

YouTube Link. 👇

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWn9-ahXbVA

This 2 hour episode has a *star studded presence of war veterans* as follows.

*Special Guest Rear Admiral (later VAdm and CinC East) SH Sarma, the 99 year young veteran* was the *Fleet Commander of Eastern Fleet* during the war and led the Fleet operations.

Special Guest, the 88 year young veteran *Cdr (later Admiral and CNS) L Ramdas, was the Commanding Officer of INS Beas*, a frontline Fleet Ship in the war. He was *awarded Vir Chakra* for this operation.

Distinguished Panelist *Cdr (later RAdm) Santosh Kumar Gupta*, was the Squadron Commander of the Seahawk Squadron and *led the airborne assaults* on East Pakistan ports. He was awarded *Maha Vir Chakra* for the operation.

Distinguished Panelist *Lt Cdr (later VAdm) PJ Jacob was the Direction Officer on board INS Vikrant* and played *key role in aircraft direction and airspace management* on board Vikrant.

Eminent author and *Director Nehru Centre Shri Amish Tripathi* will be the Chief Host of the evening and *join me in conversation with our panellists*.

*Cmde Anil Jaggi*, NA, HCI, London, as the co host will provide operational overview.

Join this exciting event. *Share the links freely with family and friends*. Look forward to your gracious presence.

For enthusiasts this would be a great on line learning session. 50 years have rolled by and very soon these heroes would sail over the horizon. Would be worth a shot to hear them. Sorry I couldn't post this with more notice as I just received this from ex-Naval friends.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Dear Friends,

Please join the live webcast of The Nehru Centre London (TNC) episode on *INS Vikrant's exploits and Eastern Fleet operations in 1971 war, on Tuesday, 24 Aug 21 at 6.30 PM IST*.

Saw this in time with about 2 hours to go. Thanks so much for sharing!

I'll be watching this for sure...some neighbours and family friends in the panel some of whom I haven't seen for 3+ decades