[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

I beg to differ from the majority opinion here, agree with Shiv Aroor on this one:

"I'm not saying we can erase our past. But let's not kid ourselves. India has a maritime tradition that stretches centuries before the British. It is both appropriate and just that the Indian Navy ensign says goodbye to St George's Cross."

Originally Posted by Gansan

The maritime tradition stretches to a time when the British were living in caves. Roman coins were dug up in Pondicherry and Tamil kings coinage was dug up in Rome. There was maritime trade even before Roman times. There are records of a blue water navy (for the time) at least a thousand years old if not more. I don't see why the ensign should not be changed.

Dear @Foxbat and @ Gansan, thank you for your posts.

All,

I am no apologists for the tyrannical British rule or their present hypocrisy & lies of pretending their so called empire {note the lower case 'e'} was good for the colonies. I am as proud as you of our rich ancient maritime heritage. My point is completely different from the jingoism of videos that have started floating around last few days. So hear me out and then disagree.

To promote one aspect of our rich culture or heritage we don't need to destroy, ban or bury another part of our traditions. Our ancient maritime heritage can be promoted and revered in a thousand other ways - name big ships after old kings and admirals who were sea faring such as INS Angre; name major naval bases after them {kings, naval leaders, dynasties}; build a museum. On that last point the one attempt in c.1992 to build a naval section in the National Museum, New Delhi failed because the museum dept of the Govt decided to lock it up. I discovered that when I went there eager to see that section. I was told 'Bhaiyya woh public ke liye band hai; VIP aate hain toh khola jata hai' {Brother it is closed to the public; it is opened only when VIPs come}. I do not know under which Govt it was closed off. The Naval Chief whose wife was the champion who got that section set up is someone I know personally {we were neighbours in 1977} and I called her to inform her. She gave me a sad tale of woe of Govt apathy towards naval history and records. So much so for pride in our ancient heritage. That is why I label this petty jingoism to bolster the image of rulers rather than any good it does for the Navy or its men. We arm chair warriors should not forget that men have fought under that flag and more importantly men have died fighting under that flag.

Promoting one aspect should not in such issues mean the need to ban something else. It isn't a zero sum game. We cannot ban our way to greatness we can only build our way to greatness.

Let these worthies start by banning the use of English to communicate.

[dragracer567]

I really loathe to weigh in on this discussion, especially since this decision seems to be made for political reasons and political decisions cannot be reversed as is the norm with the current government.

I stand with Mr. Narayan, skanchan95 and ads11 on this subject, our troops have given their lives under this flag not just in the colonial era but also in subsequent wars - especially the 1971 war. India due to its geography has been continuously invaded for thousands of years - most of whom pillaged the land atleast initially but all of them assimilated (except the British & other Europeans offcourse who focused just on the pillaging part). If we were to remove the legacy of every invader, the very building blocks of what we recognize as Indian culture, traditions etc would be at stake. The tea that Indians (especially in the North) like so much is British, cricket out of which IPL is making over $6 billion per year is British, Royal Enfield which we are so proud for its global acceptance is British, the English language that brought the IT boom worth more than $200 billion per year and made India a tech superpower - is British. Will we forego all this in the quest to scrub our nation of colonial influence?

If we are to remove the colonial legacy, there are plenty of ills that need to be addressed - the concept of 'moral policing' we see in India these days is partially influenced by Victorian morality, the tight control that various state governments exert on the police is a direct descendant of colonial-era policies since the Imperial Police was meant to be an oppressive force for the British, the arrogance of government officials when you visit a government office is a legacy of the British - since these institutions were built by the British to oppress and rule, not to serve, crippling poverty is a British legacy and I can go on and on. These are the issues from the colonial era that has to be solved but these are complex issues! So, our politicians with their eternal wisdom have decided that they can change a flag, change a few names here and there to call it a day rather than solve these complex issues. The legacy of the British raj is seen in the problems that the average Indian faces every day but changing a flag won't fix it.

All this said and done, I do very much respect the views to the contrary - all respectful views deserve to be heard and contemplated. This is the beauty of this nation, imagine such a debate taking place in China!

I do have a humble suggestion - it is uncalled for to demean other cultures (even an ex-colonizer) to highlight the significance of our own. Our culture and history are rich enough to stand on their own right that it doesn't necessitate pulling others down to make us feel better.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

We cannot ban our way to greatness we can only build our way to greatness.
.

Excellent! Anybody trying to annihilate part of one’s history should give this some thought. Just because you don’t like part of history, or it’s a really hard time (e.g. occupation, colonialism etc) doesn’t mean you can or should forget it. At the end of the day whatever happens, the good and the bad are part of a countries history. You can’t just forget bits because you disapprove or dislike them.

So very true, greatness is about how you deal with these difficult parts of one’s history!

Jeroen

[Gansan]

Sure, history should not be forgotten or edited. But it need not be proudly diaplayed in a flag or banner either. We don't have the Union Jack on our national flag, do we?

[V.Narayan]

Just received on WA a presentation by the GoI on the new ensign. I will resist the temptation of sharing it lest it is incorrect but going through the 13-page brochure, it seems to be the real thing. I'll let the fans of the new ensign post it. In my eyes they could not have, aesthetically speaking, created a less handsome, less regal, less balanced, less inspiring design. The key change resembles a Govt clerk's rubber stamp to me.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

. The key change resembles a Govt clerk's rubber stamp to me.

The Legendary lazy and unimaginative Indian babu log strike again!!!

Just like how Indian cities & towns magically transformed overnight after getting renamed by the Netas, let's watch with bated breath as the Navy's urgent needs of IAC-2, submarines and fighters get fulfilled overnight by the Government with this change of Ensign.

[.sushilkumar]

Change is only constant thing in the life.New ensign of indian navy flying high on newly commisioned INS vikrant. looks majestic IMO.



Source - https://twitter.com/proshillong/stat...TEksngFOqRrFKA

[ads11]

I'm surprised at myself for missing the significance of the timing of this change in naval ensign coinciding with the induction of the INS Vikrant. IMO a canny move to squeeze that in under the shadow of the bigger news story (justifiably so) of the first home grown carrier.

Interesting they went for a blue and gold badge, must be hoping to get around the previous complaint regarding the plain blue naval emblem on white of the previous sans-cross ensign not being legible enough.

[turbojet7]

Wow. Looks Majestic. My mother after seeing the news in Malayalam asks whether ancient Kings in those days actually built warships and had Navies. Just made me to think how our rich culture, traditions and military mights are still not known to a large people. Can't blame them. All we had in school as part of history was majorly freedom struggle with everything else till then covered in few quick chapters. When I was a schoolkid I always wondered about the similarities in the british navy flag with union jack and red cross and the Indian navy flag with the tricolor and red cross. The natural way of my reasoning was why did we persist with that although we got independence. Anyways these were long back. Good to see that finally the old design is done with.

[skanchan95]

Congratulations to the Navy on the commissioning of the new INS Vikrant.

The last CO of the old INS Vikrant had sent this last signal from the ship, hoping that the Vikrant will be with us again.


And what a comeback! Such a majestic ship the new INS Vikrant is . Can't wait to see the air wing in action in high seas.

[Foxbat]

I see many members suggesting the current Government has changed the Naval ensign for political mileage. The original proposal to remove St George's Cross from Indian Navy ensign came in the early 1970s by then Vice Admiral Vivian Barboza (then Western Naval Command C-in-C).




It was removed 31 years later under PM Vajpayee but reinstated in 3 years by the next Government .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk82Z0XTNcM

I also find it puzzling people talking about forgetting their past. No one is forgetting the British Raj, it's just that we don't need to glorify it especially in areas where we already have a rich history. Would the French, Poles, Dutch or any other occupied country from the European theatre of WWII be ok showing a Swastika on the flags of their armed forces ?

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

It was removed 31 years later under PM Vajpayee but reinstated in 3 years by the next Government .

A small factual correction, it was reinstated by the same government, about a month before the new one got sworn in.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

A small factual correction, it was reinstated by the same government, about a month before the new one got sworn in.

....and if I may add it was reinstated due to overwhelming demand from Naval officers, serving and retired.

Vice Admiral Barboza, God bless him, was a contemporary of my father. I knew of him through my father. He had his own reasons to ask for this change thinking it will earn him brownie points with a certain power centre of the 1970s.

Like it or not the flag is here with its changes. Some will say aye some will say nay. Life will move on. I don't see the point in debating a fait accompli.

[dragracer567]

Japan is planning to build it's largest post-WW2 warships. The plans entail building two 20,000-tonne missile defense ships that will field the AEGIS Ashore system for defending Japan from ballistic missiles originating from North Korea (the most likely culprit), China or even Russia given the rising tensions as Japan is among the few countries that is directly threatened by both Russia and China. Fielding these ships would also apparently mean that Japan's existing destroyers can concentrate on the role of maritime security rather than air defense. The two new ships would cost about $7.1 billion or about $3.55 billion each. At present, their biggest ships are the Izumo class helicopter carriers has a fully loaded weight of 27,000 tonnes (19,000 tonnes empty) while their biggest destroyers - the Maya class are around 10,500 tonnes.

These are effectively the first battlecruisers to be built in the 21st century. these ships will be about 70% bigger than both the Chinese Type 055s and the American Zumwalt class! I'm assuming that the Americans and the Chinese would eventually plan similar ships if the design works. India's next set of destroyers - the Project 18 will apparently have an element of ballistic missile defense as well though planned to be smaller at around 12,000 tonnes.

[V.Narayan]

INS Taragiri, 3rd vessel of Project 17A, to be launched today

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/...862136169.html
https://www.newsx.com/national/warship-taragiri.html

INS Taragiri, the 3rd of the Project 17A, Shivalik follow on’s is to be launched today at Maz Docks, Mumbai. This is to be a class of 7 guided missile frigates named after the ‘Nilgiri’ class of yore. It is heartening to see our naval shipbuilding picking up pace. Not quite where it needs to be but a darn sight better than the doldrums of the 1990s and 2000s. The first of the class INS Nilgiri is expected to commission very soon within 2022. And the second INS Himgiri in early 2023. Four are being built at Maz Docks and 3 at Garden Reach. Garden Reach has had a mixed reputation IMHO on quality. I hope that has improved.

The hull, propulsion and armament seem similar to Shivalik with the Barak 8 long range SAM replacing the Russian origin Shitl-1 SAM. The main improvements other than to the sensors and electronic defences is to the reduction of the infra-red, acoustic and radar signatures.



Under construction


The old INS Taragiri which decommissioned in 2013 after 33 years of service


Artists rendition of Project 17A vessels