[navin]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Navy Day 4th December – the history behind the day.

Awesome report, V. Narayan!

I don't know how or why, but just last night, the video linked below was suggested to me by YouTube. You must have seen it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mCgVhIV9xo

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The Naval Chief says that the IN will consider a second vessel built to the ~42,000 tonne INS Vikrant design in favour of a grounds up IAC-2 of ~65,000 tonnes. Sensible decision in my view. Better to build an improved INS Vikrant - bigger elevators, please - than to take 15 to 20 years on a larger more complex grounds up design.

A quick follow-up on this. The Defence Minister has revealed today that work has already started on the second carrier. I guess this pretty much concludes the debate and the Indian Navy will indeed get a third carrier which based on the earlier Naval chief's comments seems to be a follow-up of the Vikrant design.

Ironically, this would exacerbate the lack of fighters issue since we barely have enough to fill 2 carriers now and the 27 Rafale Ms will barely fill one carrier on its own. Given the short timelines provided by CSL for the carrier (assuming its the Vikrant design), unlikely that the TEDBF would be available by then.

[V.Narayan]

Navy Chief wants to review Naval customs, nomenclatures and practices to 'erase' colonial legacy.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...578-2022-12-10

Came across this article today. Traditions and practices are a time honoured component of what makes our armed forces a unique institution that has stayed away from the sullying effects of the politicians. Tinkering with them will not serve us well. When practices become irrelevant or too much out of tune with the times they tend to fall away on their own. There were some little practices inherited from the British that I observed in the 1960s and 1970s that fell by the wayside on their own. You don't have to make a concerted effort to please certain masters.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The Naval Chief says that the IN will consider a second vessel built to the ~42,000 tonne INS Vikrant design in favour of a grounds up IAC-2 of ~65,000 tonnes. Sensible decision in my view. Better to build an improved INS Vikrant - bigger elevators, please - than to take 15 to 20 years on a larger more complex grounds up design.

+1, pleasing to hear a sensible course of action is being pursued. If an improved Vikrant class can be built, then surely the IN can relegate the Vikramaditya to training duties and save operational deployments to the domestic carriers for which spares and maintenance will mostly be within our control.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

The envisaged timeline by CSL that seems to be floating around is 5 years which I doubt since even our destroyers of the same class take 6-7 years to build. The Vikrant cost around $2.9 billion which is a bargain for an aircraft carrier. For a non-apples-to-apples comparison, the INS Vikramaditya cost a cool $2.35 billion just to refurbish an old carrier. For another non-apples-to-apples comparison, our Visakhapatnam class destroyers cost $1.1 billion each (though these are really state-of-the-art). So, I'm guessing that the repeat order would likely be cheaper (taking inflation into account) given that most of the R&D is already done and changes will be limited to bigger elevators and perhaps stronger arrestor cables.

5 years would be quite ambitious but surely this follow on should be relatively speaking cheaper. I can only envisage costs ballooning if major changes are required to the design for this B-spec Vikrant (which if it came to that wouldn't bode well for the existing Vikrant). The primary worries of the domestic skill base built up through the building of Vikrant would be assuaged too through this course of action. Tides over CSL rather nicely.

Wonder if (provided the build schedule for the B-spec Vikrant follow on goes well) this impacts the retirement timeline for the Vikramaditya? Surely the IN would far prefer having two domestic designs as the primary flat top capability, especially for use in wartime. If anything, reducing the Vikramaditya to training deployments would also increase its longevity surely?

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Came across this article today. Traditions and practices are a time honoured component of what makes our armed forces a unique institution that has stayed away from the sullying effects of the politicians. Tinkering with them will not serve us well. When practices become irrelevant or too much out of tune with the times they tend to fall away on their own. There were some little practices inherited from the British that I observed in the 1960s and 1970s that fell by the wayside on their own. You don't have to make a concerted effort to please certain masters.

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Navy Chief wants to review Naval customs, nomenclatures and practices to 'erase' colonial legacy.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...578-2022-12-10

Came across this article today. Traditions and practices are a time honoured component of what makes our armed forces a unique institution that has stayed away from the sullying effects of the politicians. Tinkering with them will not serve us well. When practices become irrelevant or too much out of tune with the times they tend to fall away on their own. There were some little practices inherited from the British that I observed in the 1960s and 1970s that fell by the wayside on their own. You don't have to make a concerted effort to please certain masters.

Sir, let me state at the outset that I really do respect your opinions and have learnt a ton from your posts for close to a decade now.

BUT, we should remember that in a democracy, the elected government is the only body which has the mandate of the people. The Armed Forces exist to serve the people (and thus the government) and not the other way round. Hence, they HAVE to implement any changes which the elected government deems fit. It is not a choice. The elected government is supreme. Hence, the government is indeed the master of the Armed forces and the latter do have to make concerted efforts to please the former. There is no other way that things can work in a democracy.

Military institutions are orthodox, rigid and resistant to change by their very design (though the Navy is somewhat progressive among the 3 services as evidenced by the recent news of the MARCOS opening their doors to the ladies). Sometimes, the political executive has to shove decisions down the throat of the Armed Forces (or the bureaucracy or any other organisation for that matter).

Thus your choice of words "sullying effects of politicians" left me a bit perplexed. I know that your extensive experiences with our system (and indeed the collective experiences of all of us with the politico-bureaucratic setup of this country) must have influenced your words but the military itself is no holy cow. We do need strong institutions but ultimately, they have to be responsible to the government (and thus the people). The consequences of such steps are always debatable (and indeed may prove to be very negative in the long term) but then in a democracy, we (the people) get (elect) the leaders (politicians) we deserve. That is the price we have to pay to live in a (however flawed) democracy.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

Sir, let me state at the outset that I really do respect your opinions and have learnt a ton from your posts for close to a decade now.....

Very good question and more relevant given the times and the camel's nose into the tent world we live in today. I'll answer this after Christmas with two examples from history when meddling also occurred and its consequences. It is not a simple black & white of the Armed Forces having to obey every command of the civilian administration. Of course they should. But it also behooves the civilian administration to give the right orders and be focused on strategy & major reform and building indigenous manufacturing capability rather than tinkering with nth level admin details and optics. And once the camel's nose gets into the tent you don't know when and how soon the whole camel will be in too.

Before I pen my answer we may want to think - what are the biggest challenges facing our Forces? Is it re-organizing by Theatre of Command, weak indigenization of equipment, small manufacturing base, cyber warfare capabilities {or lack thereof}, better co-ordination between the three Forces in a theatre/front, depth of the supply chain, ammunition stocks for a sustained engagement etc or is the most pressing issue changing nomenclature and traditions?

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

Wonder if (provided the build schedule for the B-spec Vikrant follow on goes well) this impacts the retirement timeline for the Vikramaditya? Surely the IN would far prefer having two domestic designs as the primary flat top capability, especially for use in wartime. If anything, reducing the Vikramaditya to training deployments would also increase its longevity surely?

The INS Vikramaditya factor is puzzling because it is currently undergoing refit and will be back in action in 2023 which is also the same time when the Vikrant will start deployment. This will be issue since in this case, it’s likely that the Vikramaditya and the Vikrant will undergo refits at the same time which means the third carrier will have to fill in during this time which I am told can last upto a year or two (someone correct me on these assumptions). This is an issue since even though we’ve two carriers now, we’ll go a significant period of time without an operational carrier. Wonder why the Navy didn’t plan this out.

If the Indian economy grows fast enough, I do think we’ll have a flattop 65,000 tonne class carrier by the late 2030s but assuming we’ll have another Vikrant class carrier by 2030, this 65,000 tonne carrier could replace the Vikramaditya. It is all wishful think, at this point, we’ve only the two carriers to work with.

[locusjag]

Came across this article on my Google feed. It has been argued that the Rafale-M will sound the death knell for the indigenous programs such as the Naval LCA and TEDBF. And the last paragraph posits an opinion that until India penned the G2G deal to buy 36 Rafale in 2015, France's Rafale program was moribund with absolutely no takers and that ultimately with all of France's Rafale exports to third world countries, France is cleverly able to secure funding for their 5th gen aircraft project.

https://bharatkarnad.com/2022/12/08/...aft-programme/

[handsofsteel]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

This is an issue since even though we’ve two carriers now, we’ll go a significant period of time without an operational carrier. Wonder why the Navy didn’t plan this out.

Trust me, these issues are given the highest consideration. The scenario you have outlined above will never happen unless it is force majuere.

Originally Posted by locusjag

Came across this article on my Google feed. It has been argued that the Rafale-M will sound the death knell for the indigenous programs such as the Naval LCA and TEDBF. And the last paragraph posits an opinion that until India penned the G2G deal to buy 36 Rafale in 2015, France's Rafale program was moribund with absolutely no takers and that ultimately with all of France's Rafale exports to third world countries, France is cleverly able to secure funding for their 5th gen aircraft project.

That’s the case with every single arms manufacturer worldwide. All the more reason for our domestic industry to come to the party sooner. At the end of the day, however much one wishes for a homegrown product, if it’s not available, you have to look abroad as you can’t keep your shelves barren.

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by locusjag

Came across this article on my Google feed. It has been argued that the Rafale-M will sound the death knell for the indigenous programs such as the Naval LCA and TEDBF. And the last paragraph posits an opinion that until India penned the G2G deal to buy 36 Rafale in 2015, France's Rafale program was moribund with absolutely no takers and that ultimately with all of France's Rafale exports to third world countries, France is cleverly able to secure funding for their 5th gen aircraft project.

https://bharatkarnad.com/2022/12/08/...aft-programme/

Bharat Karnad is a very well known rabble rouser. As someone who has been following his blogs from before 2014, I can state with authority that most of his predictions rarely (if ever) pan out and more often than not, he attempts to comment on domains well outside his expertise and then ends up looking like a fool. As a rule of thumb, you ought to take his words with a ship full of salt.

About this particular article, I will post a point by point rebuttal once I get some spare time (hopefully before the start of this weekend).

Originally Posted by dragracer567

The INS Vikramaditya factor is puzzling because it is currently undergoing refit and will be back in action in 2023 which is also the same time when the Vikrant will start deployment. This will be issue since in this case, it’s likely that the Vikramaditya and the Vikrant will undergo refits at the same time which means the third carrier will have to fill in during this time which I am told can last upto a year or two (someone correct me on these assumptions). This is an issue since even though we’ve two carriers now, we’ll go a significant period of time without an operational carrier. Wonder why the Navy didn’t plan this out.

If the Indian economy grows fast enough, I do think we’ll have a flattop 65,000 tonne class carrier by the late 2030s but assuming we’ll have another Vikrant class carrier by 2030, this 65,000 tonne carrier could replace the Vikramaditya. It is all wishful think, at this point, we’ve only the two carriers to work with.

I have heard pretty serious chatter that the prolonged deck refit of the Vikramaditya is related to enabling cross deck operations of the US Navy's F-35Bs. The IAC-2s aviation complex is supposed to be compatible with American equipment and workflow from the start (the Americans were supposedly very dismayed with the sub-par design of the Vikrant's aviation complex). All in the interests of jointness of operations.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I'll answer this after Christmas with two examples from history when meddling also occurred and its consequences. It is not a simple black & white of the Armed Forces having to obey every command of the civilian administration. Of course they should. But it also behooves the civilian administration to give the right orders and be focused on strategy & major reform and building indigenous manufacturing capability rather than tinkering with nth level admin details and optics. s?

Looking forward to your examples in a couple of weeks. Should be interesting, unfortunately in democracies those in power don’t necessarily always take the best decisions. Although to what the best decision constitutes of is a matter of preference and opinion of course.

Government, Regulators and the armed forces themselves around the world have a history of making some awful decisions. Luckily, in democracies the overall good decision outweigh the bad ones.

I see in lots of politics around the world, local and national politicians looking to much in detail. Yes, it is terrible if for instance a family gets evicted from their home for the wrong reason, but why should you have a parliamentary debate about it?

The issue I find is that most of us are perfectly capable of discussing relatively simple problems, especially if we understand them fully and have a smitten of some content knowledge.

Talking long term and strategically is not for everybody.

I am reminded of something that happened a long time ago, early in my career. I was assigned as an engineer to a new build project to design a new sea going tug. At some point we had to present our proposal to the board. The total cost of the tug was, I believe 25 million Dutch guilders and they wanted to have a breakdown.

So we told them going by a very large cost spreadsheets

Two main engines: each 2.8 million
Are those good engines they asked? Absolutely we said.
Four auxiliary engines each 750k
Are those good auxiliary engines they asked? Absolutely we said.
Electronic Control system 2.5 Million
Is that a good control system they asked? Absolutely we said.

It went on and on, just meaningless questions.

That was until we came to some of the very small items for the cabins. Each cabin had a bunk light for reading. Each bunk light cost something like 60 Dutch guilders. And I think there were a total of twelve on the whole tug.They went ballistic!! How could we spend that sort of money? We should be able to find something much cheaper and better. The chairman told us in no uncertain terms his wife could get us a better deal for these lights.

It was a bit of an eye opener for me. On the real import and expensive stuff they had no knowledge, could not even come up with good question. But anybody can and is likely to have a very definite opinion on a bed side lamp, in our case the bunk lights.

Talk about lack of perspective and common sense.
The Chief engineer had warned me about this. He had gone through it a couple of times. He told me, this lot doesn’t know a tug from a tractor, let’s make sure to give them something to get their teeth in, so they can blast us. Let’s make sure it is something totally irrelevant to us. I never asked, but I still suspect that number in the spread sheet for bunk lights was put up by him on purpose. He wanted a red herring and knew exactly how to get this lot going.

Obviously, during the meeting he apologised profusely, but still got the whole budget approved but with a promise to spend at least 30% less on the bunk lights and a few other minor things.

It was an important lesson for me. Know your audience and make adjustment and allowances for it up front.

Jeroen

[handsofsteel]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

The Chief engineer had warned me about this. He had gone through it a couple of times. He told me, this lot doesn’t know a tug from a tractor, let’s make sure to give them something to get their teeth in, so they can blast us. Let’s make sure it is something totally irrelevant to us. I never asked, but I still suspect that number in the spread sheet for bunk lights was put up by him on purpose. He wanted a red herring and knew exactly how to get this lot going.

It was an important lesson for me. Know your audience and make adjustment and allowances for it up front.

Jeroen

A hilarious and at the same time enlightening story. Have seen many of these bean counters and will try this tack next time. Great lesson in managing your audience. Thank you sir

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

I have heard pretty serious chatter that the prolonged deck refit of the Vikramaditya is related to enabling cross deck operations of the US Navy's F-35Bs.

I believe it’s the US Marine Corp that operate the F35Bs. Wonder what kind of modifications the Vikramaditya had to undergo to enable operations of a STOVL aircraft (and the F35s still likely won’t fit in the Vikrant’s elevator, let alone the Vikramaditya). Cross-deck operations aren’t a far fetch though, I remember reading on the media that during one of the Malabar exercises post-2020 where the Vikramaditya was present, the only reason there was no cross-deck landings was because the Mig-29k isn’t equipped for CATOBAR while the F/A-18 isn’t certified for STOBAR landings on the Vikramaditya. The Rafale M meanwhile, is actually certified to land on American carriers and there are French pilots who are certified to do these landings, infact, the French navy even did an engine swap onboard an American carrier. Not too much of a stretch to imagine Indian aviators flying off American carriers, if only during exercises like Malabar (given the tiny number of Rafale M fighters to be purchased that will barely fill our own carrier).

With the recent clash against China, that rivalry isn’t going away anytime soon and there will be no reset like some optimists predicted. So, inter-operability with allies, especially Quad + France + Vietnam is the easiest avenue to enhance the effectiveness of our military, almost like a force-multiplier.

[saikarthik]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

INS Mormugao, second Visakhapatnam class destroyer joins the fleet

INS Mormugao (D67), second of four Visakapatnam class stealth guided missile destroyer is officially commissioned yesterday in Mumbai. The destroyer is equipped to operate in Nuclear, Biological & Chemical war (NBC) environment. Since the vessel is almost exactly same as the D66 which was already discussed and the engines, just few tidbits around main sensors, EW systems and weapons on board,

Primary Radar: Made in India (not Indian though) IAI ELM 2048 AESA AKA MF-STAR.
Secondary Radar: BEL RAWL II, L band (search radar)
Additional search radar: TERMA Scanter 6002, X band
Sonar: BEL HUMSA NG, BEL active towed array
EW suite: DRDO Shakthi (Electronic Support Measures, Electronic Counter Measures)
Communication Intelligence: DRDO NAYAN (Communication Intelligence (COMINT) system for Ship borne platform covering V/UHF frequency band)

Self Defense:
4 x DRDO Kavach (decoy -chaff),
2 x Mareech (torpedo counter measure),
32 x Barak-8 (Anti-Air)
4 x Ak-630 CIWS (close in weapon systems)

Weapons:
1 x Oto Merela 76 mm super rapid naval gun
2 x M2 7.62 stabilized remote control machine guns
4 x 21 inch Torpedo tubes (Anti-Submarine)
2x RBU 6000 (Anti-Submarine)
8 x 2 cells (16 in total) Brahmos supersonic cruise missiles (Anti-Ship/Surface)
2 x ASW/utility helicopters with Hangers.

[V.Narayan]

Indo-French Naval exercise Varuna commenced on Monday 16th January. These exercises have been run since 1993 and reflect the close ties between the two navies and nations. Among the French ships Forbin is a 7000 tonne Horizon class destroyer with strong fleet air defence capabilities similar to our Kolkata class. Provence is a 6000 tonne frigate of the Aquitaine similar to our Shivalik class. Carrier Charles de Gaulle all readers of this thread know.

Interestingly the French Navy does not use a prefix for its warships like INS {India} or HMS {UK}.

The 21st edition of the bilateral naval exercise between India and France commenced on the western seaboard on Monday, the Indian Navy said in a statement.

Initiated in 1993, the exercise was christened ‘Varuna’ in 2001 and has become “a hallmark of India–France strategic bilateral relationship”, it said.

This edition of the exercise will witness participation of indigenous guided missile stealth destroyer INS Chennai, guided missile frigate INS Teg, maritime patrol aircraft P-8I and Dornier, integral helicopters and MiG29K fighter aircraft, the statement said.

The French Navy will be represented by the aircraft carrier Charles De Gaulle, frigates Forbin and Provence, support vessel Marne and maritime patrol aircraft Atlantique, it said.

The exercise will be conducted over five days from January 16 to 20 and will witness advanced air defence exercises, tactical manoeuvres, surface firings, underway replenishment and other maritime operations, it said.

Provence


Forbin